Free Safety options already on our roster... or do you really think it should be in the draft?

[JerseyBills]

5 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Rasul Douglas will be 29 when we kick off next season.

 

What if Elam could finally grasp the CB position enough this offseason to start opposite Benford while simultaneously locking in a starting Free Safety for the next half decade?  We could also give Douglas an Extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money.

Ya I guess if he was as good at S as CB and Elam was great at CB it wouldn't matter who was playing where

[transplantbillsfan]

26 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

My God - this just gets more and more ridiculous.

 

Douglas is our CB1. He was playing at a top PFF level amongst all CB's before his injury. 

 

Not only are you suggesting moving our CB1 to Safety to start Kaiir Elam at CB instead - you're suggesting he would then choose to sign a contract for Safety money instead of CB money?

 

Why would he do that? He and his agent would laugh in our faces, play out his year with us, and go somewhere else and cash in as one of the top CB's on the market next season.

 

Wait a minute... it's ridiculous to suggest our 1st round draft pick at CB from 2 years ago should be a starter at CB?????

[BillsFanForever19]

30 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Wait a minute... it's ridiculous to suggest our 1st round draft pick at CB from 2 years ago should be a starter at CB?????

 

It's ridiculous to think you take the better performing CB and move them to Safety for the lesser performing CB. Safety is the lesser position and is easier and cheaper to replace. And Elam wasn't even the 3rd Outside CB on this team. So he's going to go from Outside CB4 to CB1 or CB2 at the cost of moving our best CB? Never.

 

And it's INSANELY ridiculous to think Douglas would not only be open to that, but then would choose to sign an extension paying him less money to do so. You do understand we can't just make guys sign whatever contract we want, right?

 

He's got one year on his deal and is a Top CB in this league. In no way, shape, or form is he going to choose to take an "extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money". Why would he cost himself money? He's either going to be extended as one of our starting CB's this offseason (extremely likely) or he's going to get paid to do that elsewhere next season.

Edited January 26 by BillsFanForever19

[transplantbillsfan]

44 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Ya I guess if he was as good at S as CB and Elam was great at CB it wouldn't matter who was playing where

 

Safety is a critically important void this team has to fill.  It's super important to McDermott's D.

 

The team has a lot of difficult choices to make this offseason and will need to get creative in order to stay in place or keep moving forward.

 

That's reality.

 

CB is our most stacked position on paper under contract right now, other than OL.

 

Converting a CB to Safety is not some outlandish suggestion.  It's been done successfully on many occasions in the NFL.  

 

I'd also point out that Beane and McDermott haven't given up on Elam and both are on record over the years that it often takes draft picks until year 3 to figure things out.  They've said that 3rd year is kinda the make or break year for draft picks and that the first 2 years aren't fair to use as strict judgments on that player as a bust.

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Safety is a critically important void this team has to fill.  It's super important to McDermott's D.

 

The team has a lot of difficult choices to make this offseason and will need to get creative in order to stay in place or keep moving forward.

 

That's reality.

 

CB is our most stacked position on paper under contract right now, other than OL.

 

Converting a CB to Safety is not some outlandish suggestion.  It's been done successfully on many occasions in the NFL.  

 

I'd also point out that Beane and McDermott haven't given up on Elam and both are on record over the years that it often takes draft picks until year 3 to figure things out.  They've said that 3rd year is kinda the make or break year for draft picks and that the first 2 years aren't fair to use as strict judgments on that player as a bust.

 

Yeah, it really is. The amount of mental gymnastics you're doing when it's as simple as Drafting or signing a Safety is incredible. 

 

You're right, we are stacked at CB. But we need a starting WR (plus at least 2 more for rotation and depth), a starting DE (plus 1-2 more for rotation), a starting DT (plus 2-3 more for rotation), and at least 1 starting Safety, possibly 2 (and another 1-2 for depth). All the while being ~44 million over the cap and one of our many CB's having an out in their contract to save a ton of money over the next two years.

 

The answer isn't move a CB to Safety because you have warm fuzzies. One of those CB's has an out in their contract, put in for a reason - in the event we're in bad shape roster wise, cap wise, and in case of fall off and injury - of which all have occurred.

 

The answer is simple. Move on from one CB and use that money this year and next year to address the multitude of positions where we're not only not stacked - we need starters. We can move on from one CB and still be in very good shape there.

 

And moving CB's to Safety isn't something that happens all the time like you think. It only happens if a guy is a tweener with experience at both positions at the College and/or Pro level. Or they're elite aging CB's with the tools to transition like a Patrick Peterson or Troy Vincent. That's not the situation here.

 

And even if it were as likely as you'd think it is that we'd just move a guy - it would be a project. You don't just move a CB to Safety, who's not played the position at the Pro Level, and say "okay, we're good there". It's a total projection. We'd still need to bring in a True Safety as insurance in the event that it wouldn't work. So knowing that we have to sign a guy anyways - this project would just cost us even more money by having to sign insurance and keeping on a CB that we could save money moving on from.

 

I'm honestly shocked it's even as close as 65 against, 34 for on your poll. It just makes zero sense any way you slice it.

Edited January 27 by BillsFanForever19

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

The answer is simple. Move on from one CB and use that money this year and next year to address the multitude of positions where we're not only stacked - we need starters. We can move on from one CB and still be in very good shape there.

Yep this is the most likely outcome. Either Tre or Douglas are gone imo and they will reallocate that money. 

[Aussie Joe]

17 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Yep this is the most likely outcome. Either Tre or Douglas are gone imo and they will reallocate that money. 

Why do think they move on from Douglas ? They just traded a 3rd for him mid season and he was their best CB after he got here … he was disappointing in the playoff loss but he was playing through injury …

 

Extend him and save $6m on his cap hit …it’s really a no brainer for Beane provided Douglas agrees 

Edited January 27 by Aussie Joe

[BillsFanForever19]

8 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Why do think they move on from Douglas ? They just traded a 3rd for him mid season and he was their best CB after he got here … he was disappointing in the playoff loss but he was playing through injury …

 

Extend him and save $6m on his cap hit …it’s really a no brainer for Beane provided Douglas agrees 

 

Agreed. I'm pretty sure when we traded for Douglas, we knew then that he'd be replacing White not just for last year - but completely, provided that he performed well in our scheme. And he definitely did. He'll be extended, unless he and his agent want to test the market first. Here's hoping they don't want to.

[Aussie Joe]

1 minute ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Agreed. I'm pretty sure when we traded for Douglas, we knew then that he'd be replacing White not just for last year - but completely, provided that he performed well in our scheme. And he definitely did. He'll be extended, unless he and his agent want to test the market first. Here's hoping they don't want to.

I really dont know what more he could have done the second half of the season …

 

I’m actually more concerned  that his play he showed here will make him want to test the market and he could force his way out if he has visions of getting $12m a year from someone and doesn’t want to  agree an extension …they would have to cut him then most likely …

 

Hopefully given his age he signs a new deal this offseason at say 3 years $24m with an out after year 2 if he falls off a cliff …

 

He is likely the CB1 next year … and with all the other issues with this team … they don’t need another one…

[wppete]

Ideally Kair Elam has a breakout in OTAs and camp and we move Benford to Safety. Think he could be an amazing Safety. 

[MrEpsYtown]

40 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Why do think they move on from Douglas ? They just traded a 3rd for him mid season and he was their best CB after he got here … he was disappointing in the playoff loss but he was playing through injury …

 

Extend him and save $6m on his cap hit …it’s really a no brainer for Beane provided Douglas agrees 

I just don’t think they will keep both. If Tre’s rehab is going well, I think the would move on from Douglas, maybe a trade, but he has no dead money on his deal. It’s like 9 million in savings. I think he was a rental to try to get to the super bowl this year. 
 

They should extend him 100%. I loved the trade and the fit, I just would be shocked if they keep both guys. That is a lot of money poured into a position where they still have a competent starter in Benford. 
 

It would be awesome to see White-Douglas on the field together. 

Edited January 27 by MrEpsYtown

[Aussie Joe]

3 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I just don’t think they will keep both. If Tre’s rehab is going well, I think the would move on from Douglas, maybe a trade, but he has no dead money on his deal. It’s like 9 million in savings. I think he was a rental to try to get to the super bowl this year. 
 

They should extend him 100%. I loved the trade and the fit, I just would be shocked if they keep both guys. That is a lot of money poured into a position where they still have a competent starter in Benford. 
 

It would be awesome to see White-Douglas on the field together. 

Ok…I think if it’s one or the other then I would go Douglas ..

 

That third round pick they gave up  is not a frivolous investment at this particular time …and they need  a better return then half a season…

 

As mentioned , the $9m savings can become $6m with an extension… normally I’m not excited about extending 30 yr old CBs … but I’ll make an exception given his play he showed here …

 

I think Tre could likely be gone …. I have concerns about how he recovered from his first injury …and how long it will take him to get over this one … 

 

Douglas And Benford will be the CB starters next year if Douglas is extended …

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I’m sure posted already but Bucky Brooks mock draft 1.0 had DB Cooper DeJean (Iowa) to Buffalo. 

[BillsFanForever19]

3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Ok…I think if it’s one or the other then I would go Douglas ..

 

That third round pick they gave up  is not a frivolous investment at this particular time …and they need  a better return then half a season…

 

As mentioned , the $9m savings can become $6m with an extension… normally I’m not excited about extending 30 yr old CBs … but I’ll make an exception given his play he showed here …

 

I think Tre could likely be gone …. I have concerns about how he recovered from his first injury …and how long it will take him to get over this one … 

 

Douglas And Benford will be the CB starters next year if Douglas is extended …

 

We can get out from under Douglas without paying anything more. But he won't save us money this year and next year like Tre will. He's also not coming off an ACL Tear and an Achilles rupture. 

 

We won't be keeping both. We're not going to take a young ascending CB like Benford and make him CB3, as well as push Elam back to CB4. Tre won't be ready to start the season and he can't be counted on as anything but a reserve with limited reps when he does. And his contract pays him like a Top CB in the league.

 

As I've said and anyone who looks at our cap situation and the contracts we have said - it's a no brainer. Tre is gone.

 

Even Beane when he was asked about Tre's future started with "that's a good question" and not an unequivocal "he'll be here". Which is about as damning as Beane gets.

Edited January 27 by BillsFanForever19

[below]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:39 PM, Shaw66 said:

McDermott's defense us driven by the safeties, not the nickel corner.  Safety is the most important position on the defense. When McBeane arrived, did they sign a free agent nickel corner?  No, they signed two safeties.  

 

You're kidding right.

 

On any NFL roster safety is one of the most replaceable positions.

 

That's why we essentially let Poyer walk last season. Fortunately he couldn't find a better deal.

 

They signed 2 safeties in 2017 because good safeties are readily available in FA.

 

If safety was the most important position we wouldn't be paying more $ to Miller. Or White. Or Douglas. Or Floyd. Or Oliver. Or Jones. Or Milano. Etc.

[below]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Agreed. I'm pretty sure when we traded for Douglas, we knew then that he'd be replacing White not just for last year - but completely, provided that he performed well in our scheme. And he definitely did. He'll be extended, unless he and his agent want to test the market first. Here's hoping they don't want to.

 

This 100%.

 

Surely they could have acquired a rental CB but they intentionally gave up higher compensation to get Douglas who has an additional year under contract.

 

It's very sad but Tre is just too big a long shot to ever return to previous form.

[below]

On 1/25/2024 at 2:06 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

That's part of the reason for the proposal.

 

We have 4 potential (3 for sure when healthy) high calibre starting CBs on the roster already. Do you really want to see 1 or 2 high quality CBs on the bench while our Safety position languishes?

 

 

This isn't Madden. It's real life.

 

Teams don't just willy nilly switch CBs to S. It pretty much never happens except when you get a VERY OLD formerly elite CB like Rod Woodson/Troy Vincent types extending their careers.

 

And one of the biggest reasons surely is CBs DO NOT WANT TO change positions where they'll make less money and likely be less effective.

 

Why on earth would Benford or Douglas want to risk their careers to switch positions and almost certainly lose out on millions of dollars?

On 1/24/2024 at 6:15 PM, Billzgobowlin said:

I think a must resign is Dane Jackson.  He has been crucial when our starting CBs go down with injuries.  He makes the defense work.  He is in stellar but is solid.  With that being said we need to look around the league for a Hyde type signing that is underrated but cheap.  I think a Rapp type signing

 

Dane is very far from a must re-sign. In a perfect world, sure. But not gonna be able to keep him and in the end he is replaceable.

 

He replaced Levi Wallace, after all.

[BillsFanForever19]

19 minutes ago, below said:

 

This isn't Madden. It's real life.

 

Teams don't just willy nilly switch CBs to S. It pretty much never happens except when you get a VERY OLD formerly elite CB like Rod Woodson/Troy Vincent types extending their careers.

 

And one of the biggest reasons surely is CBs DO NOT WANT TO change positions where they'll make less money and likely be less effective.

 

Why on earth would Benford or Douglas want to risk their careers to switch positions and almost certainly lose out on millions of dollars?

 

 

Edited January 27 by BillsFanForever19

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 1/24/2024 at 10:20 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

I get it... there are a couple Safety threads right now.  If mods want to merge with this that one, that's fine.  I just think that thread is bringing up the only player who really won't be an option to convert to Free Safety, though I'll include him in the options in the poll.

 

The way I see it, the Bills might want to get a little creative this offseason with personnell and not simply replace all players that leave the roster with a new player they have to sign or draft.  Yes, the Bills have 10 draft picks.  But let's be realistic, if even half of our upcoming draft become significant contributors next season, that draft is a Homerun.  And I'd say there's almost no shot of finding half (5) of that draft becoming immediate or even in season starters.

 

So.... Buffalo needs to look long at hard at replacing UFAs we're going to lose to FA or retirement with roster replacements.

 

The obvious ones are the guys who play the same position.  Let's hope Shorter or Shavers can replace Sherfield's role as a depth WR/Special Teams player.  And if the Bills choose to cut Harty (possible to likely) for the CAP savings, let's hope Hamler or Isabella can replace him.  I know both of those guys are signed to Futures contracts... I believe that means that next year they're basically on a one year vet minimum salary... but that was with just a relatively quick google search if anyone wants to correct me.

 

As far as WRs go, I think if those things can happen, our offense will be pretty well set for next year when we draft 1 or 2 WRs with 1 of them likely being a 1st or 2nd round guy and an expected starter opposite Diggs.

 

Sorry for the tangent...  all that is to say that the secondary is the most complicated Unit on the team going into next season.

 

Safeties under contract next year right now are Poyer and Hamlin.  That's it.  I do think that Cam Lewis will be resigned at the vet minimum because the team loves him as depth across all positions in the secondary and he has great special teams ability.

 

Hyde's retiring.  I think we can all agree.

 

The team arguably has 4 starting CBs in White, Douglass, Benford and Elam.  Yes, I realize big question marks hover over Elam and White, but they have starting CB talent.  I think everyone would agree.  And I know Dane Jackson is a UFA who likely won't be back, but I'm going to factor him into this overall equation because, like Lewis, I think he's another player the team (justifiably) loves as a depth piece.

 

So... as it currently is, here's our secondary with the bolded guys as rostered guys (when healthy)... otherwise, practice squad guys:

 

CB- Tre White

CB- Rasul Douglas

CB- Kaiir Elam

CB- Christian Benford

CB- Taron Johnson

CB- Siran Neal

CB- Kyron Brown

CB- Ja'Marcus Ingram

 

S- Jordan Poyer

S- Damar Hamlin

S- ??????????

S- ??????????

S- ??????????

 

I think if we did absolutely nothing at the CB position in the offseason, we'll be good at that position in terms of both starters and depth.  Agree? I understand the White injury is concerning, but on the plus side, he got hurt in early October.  So, we'll see.  Even if White is out, I've heard so much praise for Ingram from the film buffs like Joe Marino and Bruce Nolan that I wonder if he might be the catalyst for trying the move I'm about to propose.

 

We might end up drafting a Safety early, but with the void we have going into this offseason at DT (only Oliver under contract) and the need for a true #2 or even #1b WR, I think Safety comes in the middle rounds.

 

So... I think our starting Free Safety for next year is already on our roster or was already on our roster.

 

Here are the players and the arguments for and against.  I'll go in descending order from what I think would be most likely & effective to least.  And I think the first 2 are pretty close.

 

Rasul Douglas

Argument for: Physical, zone corner with LOTS of zone experience, incredible instincts, a nose for the ball, and a very vocal leader.

 

Argument against:  Age.  How many effective years will we get with him as our starting Safety?  I think a good number considering Safeties generally age well, but we'll see.

 

Christian Benford

Argument for: Physical, zone corner, very good instincts, a nose for the ball, if he plays well at Safety this year and we extend him after his rookie contract, a starting Safety is a lot cheaper than a starting CB.

 

Argument against:  Young player we've already been grooming as our starting CB who is already really good at the position.  Why ruin a good thing?

 

Tre White

Argument for: Zone corner with maybe the most familiarity with McDermott's D, incredible instincts, a nose for the ball, team leader loved and respected by everyone

 

Argument against: Injury would not only hinder his start to 2024, but also his transition to Safety.  Not a very good tackler.

 

Dane Jackson

Argument for: Physical, zone corner with LOTS of familiarity with McDermott's D, good instincts, loved and respected by everyone on the team.

 

Argument against: Not under contract, so bringing him back would be a serious projection for a guy who's only a borderline starting CB.

 

Kaiir Elam

Argument for: Speed to the ball, a nose for the ball, well-documented as a hard worker, NFL bloodlines, former 1st round draft pick under contract for fairly cheap for 2 more years so converting him successfully (if we could) could get rid of the whole "wasted draft pick" narrative.

 

Argument against: Poor tackler, Has struggled for 2 years to learn McDermott's Zone D.

 

 

Personally, I want to see Douglas extended for 2 years so he's under contract for 3 years total (would lower his CAP hit next year) at a mid level starting Safety range.  I think he'd be a stud at Safety and the 2nd Green Bay CB McDermott would have brought to Buffalo and converted.

 

How about you?

I hate to say it but it's time to move on from Tre. Haven't we learned anything from the Von situation? Tre will never be the same player again time to cut him and use those savings to sign a vet safety plus we have to draft Poyer eventual replacement. The Bills have to get younger this off-season take our meds with the cap and draft well. We have to take a page from the Rams last off-season they got rid of big cap hits and went young and it paid off big time   

[transplantbillsfan]

@Shaw66 Rapp is a UFA and not on our team