Doc Brown Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 12 hours ago, B-Man said: No way. Like always with Trump, the simplest explanation is the most likely. His personality is his greatest strength and his own worst enemy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demongyz Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 10 hours ago, ChiGoose said: They can both be disgusting (I didn’t vote for either) and still have different legal exposure. I personally think a private citizen stealing government documents is pretty bad. In his defense, when he stole the documents he was the President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 18 minutes ago, Demongyz said: In his defense, when he stole the documents he was the President. And when he was asked to return them by NARA, he was a private citizen. When he lied to NARA about having returned them all, he was a private citizen. The moment Joe Biden was sworn in, Trump lost any right to posses those documents and his possession of them was in violation of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demongyz Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: And when he was asked to return them by NARA, he was a private citizen. When he lied to NARA about having returned them all, he was a private citizen. The moment Joe Biden was sworn in, Trump lost any right to posses those documents and his possession of them was in violation of the law. Guess we will see when he goes to prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 Just now, Demongyz said: Guess we will see when he goes to prison. He’s clearly guilty. The question is whether or not the DoJ has the guts to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demongyz Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 7 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: He’s clearly guilty. The question is whether or not the DoJ has the guts to do anything about it. Right, lots of politicians are guilty of a lot of things. Lots of bureaucrats are guilty of a lot of things. DOJ doesn't do anything unless it is politically expedient to do it. Right now Trump has announced a run for president and the country doesn't want him in power, but there is a very large contingent of Trumpers that will only vote for him. This means no matter who the Dems run will win. So, Trump won't be prosecuted unless the establishment decides he can win. The government is as corrupt as can be and has been for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 17 minutes ago, Demongyz said: Right, lots of politicians are guilty of a lot of things. Lots of bureaucrats are guilty of a lot of things. DOJ doesn't do anything unless it is politically expedient to do it. Right now Trump has announced a run for president and the country doesn't want him in power, but there is a very large contingent of Trumpers that will only vote for him. This means no matter who the Dems run will win. So, Trump won't be prosecuted unless the establishment decides he can win. The government is as corrupt as can be and has been for years. Wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demongyz Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Wrong. Ok then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 22 hours ago, Gene Frenkle said: Well, that makes it completely ok. I mean if he said he just wanted to have them because he would miss them... And if he says he totally wasn't going to sell them. I don't know why, but I believe him! I mean, he's never lied before. Correct. “Ego and intransigence” is always a fine excuse. Remember: the whole classification scheme exists not because it would be unlawful to use secret government information for your personal economic gain - that’s already covered by other criminal laws. It exists because of the danger that allowing that information to be accessible to outsiders poses a grave danger to national security. “I took them out of a secured location and kept them at a resort hotel out of pure vanity and vanity alone” isn’t, to most normal Americans (not to mention to the law) really an excuse at all. It is an admission that you put your own childish self-aggrandizement over the security of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 23 hours ago, B-Man said: "the greatest security risk in US history" Soooo … that means Trump WASN’T selling nuclear secrets to our enemies, right? Never Trump, hardest hit. Interesting how we see this story from WaPo AFTER the midterm election. Granted, Trump was not on the ballot HOWEVER, plenty of candidates he endorsed were. Sort of like the convenient timing around the Hunter Biden laptop story. Before the election, it was RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION then after the election, OOPS, it was a real story and there is likely something there but moving on. Seeing this from WaPo a week after the midterms. Typical. From WaPo: That review has not found any apparent business advantage to the types of classified information in Trump’s possession, these people said. FBI interviews with witnesses so far, they said, also do not point to any nefarious effort by Trump to leverage, sell or use the government secrets. Instead, the former president seemed motivated by a more basic desire not to give up what he believed was his property, these people said. No kidding. The people familiar with the matter cautioned that the investigation is ongoing, that no final determinations have been made, and that it is possible additional information could emerge that changes investigators’ understanding of Trump’s motivations. But they said the evidence collected over a period of months indicates the primary explanation for potentially criminal conduct was Trump’s ego and intransigence. Right. https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/11/15/wapo-quietly-admits-fbi-found-nothin-in-raid-of-trumps-home-conveniently-after-the-election/ Hmmmm...kinda like what I said about the Dems not wanting to indict him so he can run again in 2024. I guess we'll see if/when they indict him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 But the walls are closing in!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 On 11/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, ChiGoose said: It doesn't matter for what purpose he took them, mere possession of them post-presidency is a crime. Not true my corporate lawyer tell me all the time ‘intent matters’ which is exactly why that leak is material. Of course he did it because his big fat orange but now slightly bronzer ego- like everything he’s done ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 On 11/15/2022 at 6:54 PM, ChiGoose said: Sure thing! There are two key differences between Hillary and Trump when it comes to possession of government documents. 1. At the time, Hillary was a government employee with the appropriate security clearance to view the information. Trump was a private citizen with no security clearance. 2. The confidential information on Hillary’s server appeared to reach there unintentionally. The classification markings were generally way down on the email chains and it would be hard to overcome a defense of her not knowing they were there. Trump was told by NARA that he had no right to the documents and his lawyers signed documents saying he had returned all of the documents when he really hadn’t. Intent is very easy to infer there. The DoJ found that while Hillary lacked intent, she was recklessly careless. However, there have only been a handful of cases in history in which the DoJ secured a guilty verdict in a case like this on gross negligence. All of those cases are essentially things like throwing documents in a dumpster instead of shredding them or accidentally taking documents and leaving them in your buddy’s office desk drawer while you go out partying. As a government employee with appropriate clearance, Hillary had the right to access the information but how she did it was improper. As a private citizen with no government clearance (presidents don’t actually get security clearance), Trump had no possessory right to the documents. It would be near impossible for the DoJ to win a guilty verdict against Hillary given the facts. It should be a slam dunk to get one against Trump. See Hilary Re: intent Quote In July, FBI director James Comey announced that the FBI investigation had concluded that Clinton had been "extremely careless" but recommended that no charges be filed because Clinton did not act with criminal intent, the historical standard for pursuing prosecution.[9] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_email_controversy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: See Hilary Re: intent https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_email_controversy Bingo. And why it's been a nothingburger from the beginning. And is even less now that they want him to run and muck things up for DeSantis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, Doc said: Bingo. And why it's been a nothingburger from the beginning. And is even less now that they want him to run and muck things up for DeSantis. No, he had whar he shouldn't of had. He is busted red handed. You wanted Britney Greiner to suffer in a Putin prison for a crime, but want Trump free to hurt America Sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Not true my corporate lawyer tell me all the time ‘intent matters’ which is exactly why that leak is material. Of course he did it because his big fat orange but now slightly bronzer ego- like everything he’s done ever. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. His intent to remove the documents matters; what is intent was to do with the documents is not relevant to 18 U.S. Code § 2071, which is one of the statutes from the search warrant. Here is the text of the statute: Quote (a)Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. (b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States. Edited November 17, 2022 by ChiGoose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tiberius said: No, he had whar he shouldn't of had. He is busted red handed. You wanted Britney Greiner to suffer in a Putin prison for a crime, but want Trump free to hurt America Sad Nothing will happen to him. As for Griner, I feel bad for her making a mistake taking drugs to Russia. Joke should absolutely be doing more to get her released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 13 minutes ago, Doc said: Nothing will happen to him. As for Griner, I feel bad for her making a mistake taking drugs to Russia. Joke should absolutely be doing more to get her released. Trump broke the law and endangered national security. He is guilty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Trump broke the law and endangered national security. He is guilty This is true but the question remains if the DoJ has the balls to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 26 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Trump broke the law and endangered national security. He is guilty Yeah but he didn't intend to. So he skates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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