ChiGoose Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 26 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said: How do they jump from being against the war, which is totally fine, to swallowing RUSSIAN propaganda??? The biggest propaganda machine in the world, and they probably even know that. Yet they choose to believe it? Or is it that they read crap online and their brains have no filter? Really trying to understand. Remember that one of the main reasons that Fox News was created was because Ailes did not want a future Republican president to have to resign for their crimes like Nixon did. For 30 years, what has become the biggest news channel in the country has been focused on pushing feelings to balance out any inconvenient facts. The advent of social media has expounded this problem exponentially as a significant contingent of GOP voters find the propaganda of Fox News insufficient to slake their thirst for emotional validation. They have continued to seek out sources that are less factual than even Fox. The Kremlin, Beijing, and other adversaries are exploiting this. These clickservstives don’t recognize that they are parroting propaganda but their talking points are often indistinguishable from those of the enemies of the US. 11 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: You can’t do this to a NATO country That war machine is too big to fail Putin absolutely would do this to a NATO country if the felt that the alliance was too weak or too cowardly to invoke Article V. Edited January 13 by ChiGoose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 minute ago, ChiGoose said: Remember that one of the main reasons that Fox News was created was because Ailes did not want a future Republican president to have to resign for their crimes like Nixon did. For 30 years, what has become the biggest news channel in the country has been focused on pushing feelings to balance out any inconvenient facts. The advent of social media has expounded this problem exponentially as a significant contingent of GOP voters find the propaganda of Fox News insufficient to slake their thirst for emotional validation. They have continued to seek out sources that are less factual than even Fox. The Kremlin, Beijing, and other adversaries are exploiting this. They don’t recognize that they are parroting propaganda but their talking points are often indistinguishable from those of the enemies of the US. Putin absolutely would do this to a NATO country if the felt that the alliance was too weak or too cowardly to invoke Article V. This sounds like the Trump effect But we should not mistaken competence for weakness Pitin has been shown that his War machine is not near as much as powerful as he thought it was Now, with the intelligence coming out that his nuclear capability might be greatly diminished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: This sounds like the Trump effect But we should not mistaken competence for weakness Pitin has been shown that his War machine is not near as much as powerful as he thought it was Now, with the intelligence coming out that his nuclear capability might be greatly diminished I am not willing to concede that an authoritarian who has spent decades surrounding himself with yes-men and literally murdering anyone who dissents from him has an accurate understanding of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 minute ago, ChiGoose said: I am not willing to concede that an authoritarian who has spent decades surrounding himself with yes-men and literally murdering anyone who dissents from him has an accurate understanding of reality. Hence, the trump effect But he would get a good dose of reality as soon as the conflict started Remember, we’re not giving Ukraine our best weapons are most high tech stuff is being kept out of this conflict with Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 7 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Hence, the trump effect But he would get a good dose of reality as soon as the conflict started Remember, we’re not giving Ukraine our best weapons are most high tech stuff is being kept out of this conflict with Russia The best way to avoid an expanded conflict would be to provide Ukraine what it needs to stop the Russian aggression before it expands to other countries. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 11 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said: Ah yes back to the brilliant notion that there's a Nazi regime with a Jewish leader. We're all thinking very clearly now. 11 hours ago, ChiGoose said: Shhhhh…. No thinking or logic is allowed for the appeasement crowd. Just let Russia take some land now. They won’t then continue to wage war just because that is what they’ve always done to appeasers. But Trump is an anti-Semite despite having a Jewish SIL and grandkids and a daughter who converted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Ron Burgundy Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 59 minutes ago, Doc said: But Trump is an anti-Semite despite having a Jewish SIL and grandkids and a daughter who converted... This thread is about Ukraine. JFC you have tds. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 5 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said: This thread is about Ukraine. JFC you have tds. The deflections, whatabouts, and zero content retweets started right on cue. We need to get this conversation off of any discussion about how/why Russia isn't winning hands down against a country it outnumbers five to one after two years of war. We need to get the narrative back to how Zelensky is corrupt and therefore Russia deserves to win to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 11 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said: This thread is about Ukraine. JFC you have tds. Oh, the hypocrisy! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Doc said: But Trump is an anti-Semite despite having a Jewish SIL and grandkids and a daughter who converted... Please point to where I said Trump was an antisemite 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 3 hours ago, ChiGoose said: The best way to avoid an expanded conflict would be to provide Ukraine what it needs to stop the Russian aggression before it expands to other countries. In fairness, they may well have been due in part to a miscaculation by the Ukrainians. Valeriy Zaluzhniy said that he thought 150,000 Russian KIA would bring about a settlement. It didn't, the Russians just doubled down in a way Ukraine didn't anticipate. Simply flooding Ukraine with arms at the start of the war was a non starter. Nobody anticipated them driving Russia back as far as they did. -But-, from say the Summer of 2022 to now, we may still regret not opening up the spigot on armored vehicles. Or failing to put in place a more robust ramp-up of guided munitions and artillery ammo production. I'm still optimistic though. Edited January 13 by Coffeesforclosers 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said: In fairness, they may well have been due in part to a miscaculation by the Ukrainians. Valeriy Zaluzhniy said that he thought 150,000 Russian KIA would bring about a settlement. It didn't, the Russians just doubled down in a way Ukraine didn't anticipate. Simply flooding Ukraine with arms at the start of the war was a non starter. Nobody anticipated them driving Russia back as far as they did. -But-, from say the Summer of 2022 to now, we may still regret not opening up the spigot on armored vehicles. Or failing to put in place a more robust ramp-up of guided munitions and artillery ammo production. I'm still optimistic though. I think this is broadly true. We didn’t expect Ukraine to put up much of a fight given their performance in 2014 (they had been modernizing their army since then but still). We dragged our feet sending weapons because we wanted Ukraine to prove they could be effective and to avoid escalation. Once it became clear that Ukraine could win given the chance and that Putin’s saber rattling was mostly empty threats, we should have just sent over whatever Ukraine wanted. Unfortunately, by then the Neville Chamberlain caucus had seized control of the House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 5 hours ago, ChiGoose said: The best way to avoid an expanded conflict would be to provide Ukraine what it needs to stop the Russian aggression before it expands to other countries. The best thing overall would have been to not flirt with a corrupt country like Ukraine entering NATO. And if the war has proven anything, it's that Russia doesn't have the ability to expand their aggression to other countries, if they're having so much trouble with a country like Ukraine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Ron Burgundy Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Doc said: The best thing overall would have been to not flirt with a corrupt country like Ukraine entering NATO. And if the war has proven anything, it's that Russia doesn't have the ability to expand their aggression to other countries, if they're having so much trouble with a country like Ukraine. This might be true but...hindsight. also it kinda sets a bad precedent flat out rejecting other countries in the cool nato club. On the positive, like really big deal, we also now have Finland and Sweden who joined. Tell me doc, why is it some conservatives, not talking about you here, love Russian disinformation so much? And playing dumb will be lame. This board has perhaps hundreds of examples you have read many im sure. Why can people not just say they are against the war without swallowing absurdities about Ukraine/the conflict? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Doc said: The best thing overall would have been to not flirt with a corrupt country like Ukraine entering NATO. And if the war has proven anything, it's that Russia doesn't have the ability to expand their aggression to other countries, if they're having so much trouble with a country like Ukraine. Do you honestly still believe that Russia invaded to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, L Ron Burgundy said: This might be true but...hindsight. also it kinda sets a bad precedent flat out rejecting other countries in the cool nato club. On the positive, like really big deal, we also now have Finland and Sweden who joined. Tell me doc, why is it some conservatives, not talking about you here, love Russian disinformation so much? And playing dumb will be lame. This board has perhaps hundreds of examples you have read many im sure. Why can people not just say they are against the war without swallowing absurdities about Ukraine/the conflict? What Russian disinformation? That Ukraine is in cahoots with Nazis? It's a minor point. No one supports their invasion of Ukraine. But at some point you have to realize when you've lost, and when the money you're sending is being stolen more than used for what it was intended. 54 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Do you honestly still believe that Russia invaded to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO? Yes. Do you honestly believe Russia will try to invade other countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Doc said: Yes. Do you honestly believe Russia will try to invade other countries? Finland joining NATO basically doubled the length of Russia’s border with NATO countries but Russia did nothing about it. If Russia was attacking Ukraine to prevent NATO encroachment, wouldn’t they have tried to stop Finland from joining? It’s almost as if the NATO talking point is a fig leaf to distract from Russia’s revanchism… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, ChiGoose said: Finland joining NATO basically doubled the length of Russia’s border with NATO countries but Russia did nothing about it. If Russia was attacking Ukraine to prevent NATO encroachment, wouldn’t they have tried to stop Finland from joining? It’s almost as if the NATO talking point is a fig leaf to distract from Russia’s revanchism… Russia couldn't do anything about Finland once they were engaged and struggling with Ukraine. Finland was smart to wait/until the war broke out. Now they have full NATO backing. Russia invaded Ukraine because a) they were once part of the USSR, b) they did it before and c) they over-estimated their power. As I said, Russia won't be invading any more countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 11 minutes ago, Doc said: Russia couldn't do anything about Finland once they were engaged and struggling with Ukraine. Finland was smart to wait/until the war broke out. Now they have full NATO backing. Russia invaded Ukraine because a) they were once part of the USSR, b) they did it before and c) they over-estimated their power. As I said, Russia won't be invading any more countries. I do love that your list of reasons for Russia invading Ukraine doesn’t mention anything about NATO and starts with the real reason that Putin / Russia is revanchist. We are in complete agreement there. I‘m just not optimistic that the guy who has isolated himself from any criticism or pushback will cease aggression once he successfully adds more Ukrainian territory after we stop supporting them and/or push for a ceasefire. Doesn’t seem to fit with the history of Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, and Putin’s whole worldview. He hates NATO and if he thinks he can force its end by showing they won’t honor Article V, he’s going to find it very tempting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts