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Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦


Tiberius
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20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Oh no, I ask someone something! 😆

 

And Biden was NOT the single most influential proponent on Dem side, he even tried watering down the powers given to Bush on his mad rush to war 

 

 

Goodness me.

He was Chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee when the vote was cast.

Are you simply blind to this?

 

Watching you, and him, back away from this is as pathetic as watching the Pelosi brigade deny knowing about "enhanced interrogation."

Insulting to anybody with any knowledge, and grossly insulting to people involved. 

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36 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

 

Goodness me.

He was Chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee when the vote was cast.

Are you simply blind to this?

 

Watching you, and him, back away from this is as pathetic as watching the Pelosi brigade deny knowing about "enhanced interrogation."

Insulting to anybody with any knowledge, and grossly insulting to people involved. 

Goodness! Was he really, wow! 

 

Backing away? What have you got in your head. 

 

He also said his vote was a mistake. Yup 

 

Ya, that torture in Iraq was real bad, wasn't it? 

 

What a mess! 

 

oh, and 19 years, not 20, my bad 

 

Bush's crazed drive to invade Iraq, What a mess! 

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1 minute ago, PetermansRedemption said:

If reports are to believed. Looks like this fiery ordeal might finally be nearing the endgame with a Ukrainian victory. Now we just have to hope Putin accepts the loss with grace and doesn’t do anything desperate. 

 

I hope so. This war should have never happened, and when it happened it should have been a comprehensive Russian victory.  Putin has no one to blame for the current mess than himself and the country he's built over the last 20 years.  

 

Taking his L and cutting a deal *should* have happened months ago, when it was obvious his army and his country weren't prepared for a real war. But all he does is double down on mistakes, or try and escalate his way out of the situation.  What worries me is what he does when he realizes he's flushed 20 years worth of success down the toilet in 6 months. 

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20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Goodness! Was he really, wow! 

 

Backing away? What have you got in your head. 

 

He also said his vote was a mistake. Yup 

 

Ya, that torture in Iraq was real bad, wasn't it? 

 

What a mess! 

 

oh, and 19 years, not 20, my bad 

 

Bush's crazed drive to invade Iraq, What a mess! 

 

If this makes any sense to anyone.

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20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Answering nonsense, so...

 

Was the Iraq War a mistake? 

 

Of course it was a mistake, and Biden was a huge advocate. 

I don't blame him.

 

The US and other countries intel concluded that there was a real threat of WMD, with a lunatic at the watch.

They were wrong, and there was nothing political about that assessment.

It was simply wrong.

 

Still, the reality was that is was not possible to keep enforcing no fly zones and other nonsense regarding Iraq's failure to abide by their ceasefire agreement.

Their failure to abide doomed that regime.

 

The US Congress agreed with that assessment, and the rest is history. 

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30 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Of course it was a mistake, and Biden was a huge advocate. 

I don't blame him.

 

The US and other countries intel concluded that there was a real threat of WMD, with a lunatic at the watch.

They were wrong, and there was nothing political about that assessment.

It was simply wrong.

 

Still, the reality was that is was not possible to keep enforcing no fly zones and other nonsense regarding Iraq's failure to abide by their ceasefire agreement.

Their failure to abide doomed that regime.

 

The US Congress agreed with that assessment, and the rest is history. 

Bush should have let the inspectors continue the job instead of pulling them out. Bush pulled out the inspectors, Saddam didn't tell them to leave. 

 

The intel was hyped. Condi talking about mushroom clouds? No way Saddam was going to make a nuke anytime soon. The mobile weapons labs? That sounded silly at the time and they of course never existed. Colin Powell implied he was lied to about them. 

 

The intel was totally hyped. Most Americans believed Saddam had something to do with 9-11. Now where did they get that idea? They simply lied about it. Like Donald Trump level of lying about it. 

 

But anyway, WMD was only the reason advanced, because it was the easiest to hype. And even there the politicians pushing for war did not say that there were disagreements, gaps in info and total guess work going on between intelligence agencies. And Bush used that crap about uranium purchases in Africa to build the case for war, but that turned out to be false. He was warned, but stated it anyway in the mad rush to war 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Bush should have let the inspectors continue the job instead of pulling them out. Bush pulled out the inspectors, Saddam didn't tell them to leave. 

 

The intel was hyped. Condi talking about mushroom clouds? No way Saddam was going to make a nuke anytime soon. The mobile weapons labs? That sounded silly at the time and they of course never existed. Colin Powell implied he was lied to about them. 

 

The intel was totally hyped. Most Americans believed Saddam had something to do with 9-11. Now where did they get that idea? They simply lied about it. Like Donald Trump level of lying about it. 

 

But anyway, WMD was only the reason advanced, because it was the easiest to hype. And even there the politicians pushing for war did not say that there were disagreements, gaps in info and total guess work going on between intelligence agencies. And Bush used that crap about uranium purchases in Africa to build the case for war, but that turned out to be false. He was warned, but stated it anyway in the mad rush to war 

 

 

 

Ignorant.

So Biden didn't see through this US intel failure?

 

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Back to the thread.

 

 

Rick Moran: It’s Back to the Drawing Board for Putin and the Russian Military. 

 

“These latest setbacks in Kharkiv are worse than originally thought.  It appears the retreat from Izyum — the most important base and staging area in Donbas — has blown up the entire eastern front.”

 

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2022/09/13/its-back-to-the-drawing-board-for-putin-and-the-russian-military-n1629137

 

 

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22 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Bush should have let the inspectors continue the job instead of pulling them out. Bush pulled out the inspectors, Saddam didn't tell them to leave. 

 

The intel was hyped. Condi talking about mushroom clouds? No way Saddam was going to make a nuke anytime soon. The mobile weapons labs? That sounded silly at the time and they of course never existed. Colin Powell implied he was lied to about them. 

 

The intel was totally hyped. Most Americans believed Saddam had something to do with 9-11. Now where did they get that idea? They simply lied about it. Like Donald Trump level of lying about it. 

 

But anyway, WMD was only the reason advanced, because it was the easiest to hype. And even there the politicians pushing for war did not say that there were disagreements, gaps in info and total guess work going on between intelligence agencies. And Bush used that crap about uranium purchases in Africa to build the case for war, but that turned out to be false. He was warned, but stated it anyway in the mad rush to war 

 

 

 

The inspectors were not granted the access that was part of the agreement.

There were many UN resolutions involving this.

There were many cease fire violations.

There was the impracticality of a continued demand to maintain a no fly zone, and there were Iraqi offensive efforts within that, and they were increasing.

There was the CIA, British intel and a host of others that concluded the same thing.

You know.....The "Slam Dunk" from George Tenet.

 

The executive and both houses were briefed on the exact same intel, which was not a White House product or conclusion.

The White House doesn't have that ability.

 

Further, and something I am quite sure that you know nothing about, there was a time issue.

If sending US troops to battle in the middle east, timing is everything.

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1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

The inspectors were not granted the access that was part of the agreement.

There were many UN resolutions involving this.

There were many cease fire violations.

There was the impracticality of a continued demand to maintain a no fly zone, and there were Iraqi offensive efforts within that, and they were increasing.

There was the CIA, British intel and a host of others that concluded the same thing.

You know.....The "Slam Dunk" from George Tenet.

 

The executive and both houses were briefed on the exact same intel, which was not a White House product or conclusion.

The White House doesn't have that ability.

 

Further, and something I am quite sure that you know nothing about, there was a time issue.

If sending US troops to battle in the middle east, timing is everything.

I would know nothing about? Nice of you to throw a petty insult in. 

 

My point was there was hype used. There was. 

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49 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I would know nothing about? Nice of you to throw a petty insult in. 

 

My point was there was hype used. There was. 

 

It's not petty.

It's sincere.

You have no idea what intel was presented or where it came from, and the White House did not originate it. 

They don't have that capability.

 

Both houses of Congress were presented the same info and they voted how they did.

 

It all came from our significant intel "industry," and having no reasonable humint in the middle east, which has been a significant problem for years, they relied way too much on defectors, and they were wrong.

You have demonstrated no acknowledgment of understanding that, similar to your "weapon of the week" posts re the Ukraine.

 

If you are insulted by that, so be it.

 

 

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Quote

 

IZYUM, Ukraine — About 10 days before Ukrainian forces retook the city of Izyum last weekend, Russian troops stationed here were so demoralized that they drafted letters begging their superiors to dismiss them from their roles.

The 10 handwritten letters, dated Aug. 30, were left behind in a two-story residential house where Russians were squatting and later found by Ukrainian soldiers who provided the letters to The Washington Post for review. They paint a portrait of dejected troops desperate for rest and concerned about their health and morale after months of fighting.

“I refuse to complete my duty in the special operation on the territory of Ukraine due to lack of vacation days and moral exhaustion,” wrote a man who identified himself as the commander of an antiaircraft missile platoon from the Moscow region.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/15/letters-left-behind-by-demoralized-russian-soldiers-they-fled/

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It is always easy to underestimate the staying power of democracies. They are noisy, contentious and open. They air all their anxieties, doubts and critiques in public. When there is a sense that the struggle is not central or that the goals chosen by leaders are fundamentally flawed — as in Vietnam and Iraq — there are constant calls for course correction.

But when the stakes are high and the cause is just, democracies can stay the course. They did it for almost five decades during the Cold War. And they will do it for a couple of winters in this pivotal struggle.

 

By Fareed Zakaria

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/15/ukraine-democracy-society-morale-advantage-russia/

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