shoshin Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 45 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: The data is there. It seems you don’t want to believe it. Yes. 4 confirmed cases of voter fraud in 2016. 158 referrals for voter fraud since 2016, almost no convictions. That's the data. And there has yet to be the bigly evidence required for Trump to overturn this election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 12 hours ago, TBBills said: Yea the guy who was picked by a BLACK President as his VP, the same guy who has the first Black woman vice president. Sounds so racist to a white man like yourself I bet. B.c you don't bother looking at the conversation that everyone had with aristocrat already... Stop repeating defeated bull####. The only reason he was VP was insurance that no one would try to assasinate half black jebus. The guy who said Obama bin laden was clean and articulate, and who his VP pick called him a racist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said: I don't disagree but I think we're very early in the process to issue a blanket dismissal of all potential improprieties. After all its only been a few days. And its that quick and immediate dismissal that creates a lot of suspicion and generates distrust of the process. The fact is we don't know all the facts. Nobody is saying there are not any instances of vote fraud. What people are saying is that there's absolutely no evidence of widespread voter fraud as is being alleged by Trump, Guiliani, and Trump true believers. See below. 55 minutes ago, shoshin said: I read the PA complaint today. Zero allegation of voter fraud. Zero evidence of vote changing. Zero request for votes to be switched. Just process complaints and the fear of “what could have happened.” A parade of fantasies around what could be going on at a distance of 10 feet from vote counters and the like, but not one instance or allegation of actual votes being changed. Let alone Rudy and his witness’s claim of 600,000 plus claim. That case is going nowhere for Trump. Another complaint in PA is that the GOP doesn't want ballots that were postmarked on/before Election Day but arrived after the polls closed counted. They might have a case here, but those ballots were segregated and have not been counted pending the court decision. These ballots number fewer than 9,000 while Biden's lead in PA is north of 40k the last time I looked. One of the reasons that votes continue to dribble in from all over the country is the large number of provisional ballots, which is a result of the large turn out. Provisional ballots are ballots cast by individuals with issues --- in-person voters who have moved and went to the wrong polling place; in-person voters who lacked sufficient ID; in-person voters who requested mail-in ballots, mail-in votes that might be from questionable voters, etc. 25 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: As I pointed out above under Trump’s administration they convened a study under that guy from Kansas to uncover all the supposed fraud. It was quietly disbanded because nothing was found. Other studies of fraud have similarly shown none to very small fractions of a percent incidence. The data is there. It seems you don’t want to believe it. This was a study of numerous elections over several years. It found a very tiny number of instances of outright fraud amid mostly inadvertent mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 41 minutes ago, SoTier said: Another complaint in PA is that the GOP doesn't want ballots that were postmarked on/before Election Day but arrived after the polls closed counted. They might have a case here, but those ballots were segregated and have not been counted pending the court decision. These ballots number fewer than 9,000 while Biden's lead in PA is north of 40k the last time I looked. I agree with that case--that those votes should not count because the law says they should not and the PA Supreme Court had no right to re-write that law. But they haven't been counted in the total and don't matter to the result (they would just increase Biden's lead assuming they follow the pattern of the other mail ballots). Thus, even a Trump win on that doesn't affect anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 2 hours ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said: Allegations without evidence can and should be rightfully dismissed without evidence. This is stupid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 26 minutes ago, shoshin said: I agree with that case--that those votes should not count because the law says they should not and the PA Supreme Court had no right to re-write that law. But they haven't been counted in the total and don't matter to the result (they would just increase Biden's lead assuming they follow the pattern of the other mail ballots). Thus, even a Trump win on that doesn't affect anything. I agree, too. If the legislature wanted late arriving votes to count, they would have made that part of the law. I don't know if they have special circumstances for overseas ballots which are often primarily from military personnel. Many states do allow some time for those ballots to arrive after election day, including North Carolina. I think a lot of the people who are buying into this idea of widespread election fraud (aside from Trump, Crazy Rudy, and their sycophants) are people who get their news from social media instead of from mainstream news outlets. They don't understand how the process works, so they believe anything. All the tv stations covered this, but I followed the post-election ballot counting on CNN which had extensive coverage. I got a real education on how ballot security and counting works as well as how the different procedures for handling in-person and mail-in ballots that states had skewed the reporting of election results early on, and why it took so much longer for one state to report results than another state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 18 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Then how do we get the country working together again? Looks like we share similar political philosophies, so I’d be interested in your thoughts. i think of historical examples. Reagan and O’Neil were as opposite politically as you could get, but every week had drinks together, and got things done, notably saving Social Security. My favorite President was Truman, not for his politics but because he was faced with so many critical decisions and took them on unflinchingly. When it came to big things like saving Europe with the Marshall Plan, we had bipartisanship. More recently Bush and 9/11. We came together. We are each middle of the electorate it seems, conservative in areas and liberal in others. Should we not be able to work together? Nice thoughts. I trend like Skynrd in my beliefs. And it is extremely difficult to come together when the last 4+ years have been filled with being labeled with every stupid, wrong-headed accusation in the book. This just for discussing the policies of the Administration and not dismissing them out-of-hand because it was felt that there wasn't enough Trump hatred. It started with deplorables, then we went through Putin loving traitors, then Nazis, racists, mysogynists, evil, stupid, cult members. No discussion was to be had. None. Couldn't legitimize Trump in any way. That was the strategy. Before I get accused, again, of all these things I will repeat that I never voted for Trump. But to have a thread like this, calling for Trump supporters to be "good" losers (when the results of the election has not yet been certified in any single state in this Union) is absolutely laughable. The riot plans and plywood was put up for Biden voters. Even now, anyone not hating Trump enough but just willing to wait and see what's going to happen is dismissed as a conspiracist. It was just fine when Hillary Clinton advised Joe Biden not to concede the election. But when Trump exercises his RIGHT to contest the results; and when (I think) at least two states are doing automatic re-counts, that's where the line gets drawn? And even with all that said, it would be Republicans -- who have been shamelessly vilified; and Trump voters (over 70,000,000 of them) who will be the only ones mature enough to work together with the other side (with exceptions to this rule, obviously). 5 hours ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said: Allegations without evidence can and should be rightfully dismissed without evidence. Crossfire Hurricane and Mueller say hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, snafu said: Nice thoughts. I trend like Skynrd in my beliefs. And it is extremely difficult to come together when the last 4+ years have been filled with being labeled with every stupid, wrong-headed accusation in the book. This just for discussing the policies of the Administration and not dismissing them out-of-hand because it was felt that there wasn't enough Trump hatred. It started with deplorables, then we went through Putin loving traitors, then Nazis, racists, mysogynists, evil, stupid, cult members. No discussion was to be had. None. Couldn't legitimize Trump in any way. That was the strategy. Before I get accused, again, of all these things I will repeat that I never voted for Trump. But to have a thread like this, calling for Trump supporters to be "good" losers (when the results of the election has not yet been certified in any single state in this Union) is absolutely laughable. The riot plans and plywood was put up for Biden voters. Even now, anyone not hating Trump enough but just willing to wait and see what's going to happen is dismissed as a conspiracist. It was just fine when Hillary Clinton advised Joe Biden not to concede the election. But when Trump exercises his RIGHT to contest the results; and when (I think) at least two states are doing automatic re-counts, that's where the line gets drawn? And even with all that said, it would be Republicans -- who have been shamelessly vilified; and Trump voters (over 70,000,000 of them) who will be the only ones mature enough to work together with the other side (with exceptions to this rule, obviously). Crossfire Hurricane and Mueller say hello. Everything you said about the Dems is basically what Trump has done for the past 4 years.... He would label everything stupid that wasn't his idea. He hated and spread hate to anyone not agreeing with him. He has been in trouble more than a few times for promoting violence, even banned on Twitch for doing it. It is so weird that people do not see that is what he has done, even attacked media when they didn't talk about him favorably. Not to mention making fun of the disabled. Edited November 10, 2020 by TBBills 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, TBBills said: Everything you said about the Dems is basically what Trump has done for the past 4 years.... He would label everything stupid that wasn't his idea. He hated and spread hate to anyone not agreeing with him. He has been in trouble more than a few times for promoting violence, even banned on Twitch for doing it. It is so weird that people do not see that is what he has done, even attacked media when they didn't talk about him favorably. Read better. I wasn't talking about Trump. Nothing in that post was Trump. The subject was whether people from both sides can come together. The subject had nothing to do with Trump. What are you going to do when Trump is gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Just now, snafu said: Read better. I wasn't talking about Trump. Nothing in that post was Trump. The subject was whether people from both sides can come together. The subject had nothing to do with Trump. What are you going to do when Trump is gone? The people that voted for Trump act and do thing the exact way he does them. They are the sheep and act as he acts... You cannot have one without the other. The Trumpies follow his lead.... When Trump is gone I bet the Trumpies go silent b.c they won't have someone to mimic... Well they will probably go back to watching his TV show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 "Now that our side won, please don't be sore losers like we were for the past 4 years." Classic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 minute ago, TBBills said: The people that voted for Trump act and do thing the exact way he does them. They are the sheep and act as he acts... You cannot have one without the other. The Trumpies follow his lead.... When Trump is gone I bet the Trumpies go silent b.c they won't have someone to mimic... Well they will probably go back to watching his TV show. @oldmanfan This proves my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Doc said: "Now that our side won, please don't be sore losers like we were for the past 4 years." Classic! Can't expect a Trumpie to be anything other than the leader they follow. Just now, snafu said: @oldmanfan This proves my point. Proves your point that you are following a man who destroyed a country and you think you were the ones being bullied lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 minute ago, TBBills said: Can't expect a Trumpie to be anything other than the leader they follow. Proves your point that you are following a man who destroyed a country and you think you were the ones being bullied lol. @oldmanfan He did it again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 minute ago, snafu said: @oldmanfan He did it again!! It's ok you been doing it for 4 years, and it seems you don't ever want to stop. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Then how do we get the country working together again? Looks like we share similar political philosophies, so I’d be interested in your thoughts. i think of historical examples. Reagan and O’Neil were as opposite politically as you could get, but every week had drinks together, and got things done, notably saving Social Security. My favorite President was Truman, not for his politics but because he was faced with so many critical decisions and took them on unflinchingly. When it came to big things like saving Europe with the Marshall Plan, we had bipartisanship. More recently Bush and 9/11. We came together. We are each middle of the electorate it seems, conservative in areas and liberal in others. Should we not be able to work together? I started responding yesterday and decided to take a minute and think it through. On a local level, I think we (us v them, whomever us or them is in this case) find unity quickly and decisively. I think we each speak our peace, acknowledge the feelings of the other and go about our business. We both probably walk away thinking nothing changed, but we had a nice dialogue. The tale of Reagan and O'Neill is oft-told and is inspirational. However, it was a story that played out in the early 1980s. In those days, the stench of McCarthyism was still hanging around as it had been only 30 years or so since the infamous Red Scare. We were still only 40 years removed from WW2, not much more than a decade off of Vietnam, and the world was different. Had Tip O'Neill accused RR of being a Gorbachev Stooge, had the FBI launched a bogus probe against ties to Red Russia, the electorate would have met these allegations with a very jaundiced eye. It simply would not have flown. Likewise, allegations near and far from politicians and the media that RR was a glorified Nazi would have caused a massive outcry from the men and women who lived and lost loved ones during that era. In my humble opinion, the reason the word 'Nazi' is thrown around these days is because there are very, very few people left to stand up and say "Are you &^%$ing people crazy??". Bush and the American people's response to 9/11 was also inspirational. Nothing like an attempt to destroy us all to bring folks together. However, by the time W had done his time, let's not pretend that he was not excoriated by Obama/Biden as basically a war criminal who sent American soldiers to die in a trumped up war-for-oil scheme. Magically, of course, once the election was done, nothing further comes of it. In fact, now the W Bush family and the Hussein-Obama families are quite close. Imagine that--the war criminal and the man who called him out are buddies. In fact, looky looky--now W is all about the decency of jb. No concerns about jb's wandering mind, no concerns about his racial insensitivity of pawing of women in the era of #metoo (which makes sense, given that old man HW Bush liked to cop a feel like rich elitist old men are prone to do)--just "He's a decent man.". I ask you OMF--given our similarities--did W Bush think Trump a Russian stooge or a victim of a take down? Did he support FISA abuse, like one might assume a War-for-Oil president probably would? Did he support the Comey approach to derailing a president? Did he support Obama's arrogance as he suddenly, without notice, caused an international incident by expelling a couple dozen Ruskies in the closing days in office? Now, here we are. Election chaos, a push by the media to steamroll a candidate into submission. It would work on a Mitt Romney or Jeb W Bush--they are soft as butter and were born without nuts. Trump, however, is different and has chosen at this point to see it through. Whether that builds unity or not really depends on your point of view--- I think there is nothing more American than pursuit of legal remedy through the court system. There is no downside, no real room for debate as it's a foundational principle of our country. On the flip side, declaring someone prom king in some dopey media push is silly and divisive, mostly because it means nothing. It's divisive, it's presumptuous and it's unnecessary. If Biden prevails, the strategy changes because it has to. Unity has nothing to do with it--he didn't seek it out in the race, he didn't seek it out in the 4 years Trump was in office, and imo he offers nothing of value to me as a citizen. Edited November 10, 2020 by leh-nerd skin-erd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Nov 10th still zero proof of any voter fraud.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 39 minutes ago, TBBills said: The people that voted for Trump act and do thing the exact way he does them. They are the sheep and act as he acts... You cannot have one without the other. The Trumpies follow his lead.... When Trump is gone I bet the Trumpies go silent b.c they won't have someone to mimic... Well they will probably go back to watching his TV show. Clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Just now, keepthefaith said: Clueless. I agree Trump and his supporters are "Clueless" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 48 minutes ago, TBBills said: Nov 10th still zero proof of any voter fraud.... Because there is none. All of the GOP talking points are complete garbage. Just lie after lie after lie. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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