Why are the the late 80's Giants D's never mentioned among the best?

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Rico said:

I'd have to go back and watch some of the games. My memories of the 2 Super Bowl teams right now :

1986: they beat a BS Broncos team.

1990: that game was more about the Bills losing than the Giants winning.

so I give them props but not much more than that.

 

 

The Bears beat a BS NE team in 1985.  Ravens beat Kerry Collins in 2000.

 

It's not even about SBs.  They were dominating from 84-90.

[row_33]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Bears beat a BS NE team in 1985.  Ravens beat Kerry Collins in 2000.

 

It's not even about SBs.  They were dominating from 84-90.

the NFC was so superior for a long time

 

i doubt that many runners-up in the AFC would have played .500 in that conference, the AFC suffered many soul-crushing total defeats in the SB

 

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

 

Take the coke out of LTs nose and you would’ve seen a different player.  One not as dominant 

 

 

Gonna take the coke out of Bruce's nose too?

 

7 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

That defense was amazing but league rules where way different back then add to taking a player like  LT and him pretty much admitting to being high every game and some of those numbers where kinda skewered 

 

Picking one player out when drug and PED use was rampant makes no sense, nor does it do anything to change the fact that that was a consistently dominant Defense for years.

 

39 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Obviously the Giant defenses were talented. I do however think that without Taylor, the were just another "very good" defense.

 

Taylor was off the charts great. Tony Dorsett said he used to wake up in the middle of the night seeing visions of Taylor coming at him.

 

I met LT once in unusual circumstances and am 100% sure he was both crazy and dangerous. That said, I never saw a better defensive player, not even Bruce.

 

Sure he was the best on that D, but the rest were great players in their own right.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Dirtyd415 said:

I’m from earth you miserable ass.  You asked a question and solicited peoples opinion.  I gave you mine and you gave me a snarky BS response.  “What do you think about xyz?  Oh, that’s stupid and your wrong.”  I’m sure you are a joy to be around this time of year, must just gotten some anthracite in your stocking I guess.  
 

Back to your original question, I didn’t say they were the only ones doing it.  Was Barry Bonds the only player juicing up in Baseball??  No, but he had the best regimen/product/body response and became great because of them.  The giants had the most players juicing and hitting hard drugs right before the game.  Also had the best supply of the highest quality being in NY in the 80s.  

 

So, in an era in which drug use in sports, including the NFL, was rampant-- you have singled out the Giants as particular offenders because... they "had the best supply of the highest quality being in NY in the 80s"?  The Bears didn't have the same quality of drugs to use?  How do you know this?

 

You said that current "people in the know" don't highly regard the Giants D back then ONLY because of drug use.  That's ridiculous. 

 

Every team had a drug problem. Every team had a steroid problem.  Knowing all that, my questions remains...

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

So, in an era in which drug use in sports, including the NFL, was rampant-- you have singled out the Giants as particular offenders because... they "had the best supply of the highest quality being in NY in the 80s"?  The Bears didn't have the same quality of drugs to use?  How do you know this?

 

You said that current "people in the know" don't highly regard the Giants D back then ONLY because of drug use.  That's ridiculous. 

 

Every team had a drug problem. Every team had a steroid problem.  Knowing all that, my questions remains...

St. Louis and Kansas City were the drug capitals of high level baseball for the 80s

 

 

[Rico]

59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Bears beat a BS NE team in 1985.  Ravens beat Kerry Collins in 2000.

 

It's not even about SBs.  They were dominating from 84-90.

Those were definitely 2 BS teams no doubt. Like I said, I’d have to watch some of the Giants games again. I mostly remember LT being incredible with a very good but not great supporting cast. I remember being surprised when Carson finally made it into the HOF.

[Prickly Pete]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Obviously the Giant defenses were talented. I do however think that without Taylor, they were just another "very good" defense.

 

Taylor was off the charts great. Tony Dorsett said he used to wake up in the middle of the night seeing visions of Taylor coming at him.

 

I met LT once in unusual circumstances and am 100% sure he was both crazy and dangerous. That said, I never saw a better defensive player, not even Bruce.

 

This is my opinion of the defense and Taylor, as well.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Sure he was the best on that D, but the rest were great players in their own right.

Well, I don't think that the Giant defensive unit was as talented or as balanced as certain others, for instance; the Championship Bears, The Steel Curtain, or even the Championship Bucs.

I am NOT dissing the Giants defense either. They were certainly the best coached unit perhaps ever. All I am saying is that I am not so sure how they would have measured up without LT.

 

The man was THAT good.

[Bill from NYC]

35 minutes ago, row_33 said:

St. Louis and Kansas City were the drug capitals of high level baseball for the 80s

 

 

The Oakland As and the Red Sox might have had a player or 2 on roids, no?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, Dirtyd415 said:

 

 

Um, not sure where you get your info, but for defenders, especially lineman and backers, it would 100% be performance enhancing.  Maybe not for a QB or WR where more fine motor skills are used.  Also have you heard of a key bump?  Coke is about the most discreet drug to use.  They certainly “recharged” at halftime but also likely on the sidelines.  

 

Yeah - but the like jolt of energy you get lasts like 10 minutes.  You get a bit of a sustained high, but mostly that just keeps you up all night at a craps table.  Honestly, i think you're more alert after smelling salts than coke.  

 

I would think amphetamines would be more beneficial to performance since it lasts longer.  Germans used them in WW2, and from what i remember it was pretty popular in baseball in the 60s.  

[Mr. WEO]

48 minutes ago, row_33 said:

St. Louis and Kansas City were the drug capitals of high level baseball for the 80s

 

 

 

Isn't meth still the number one industry in Missouri?

 

29 minutes ago, Rico said:

Those were definitely 2 BS teams no doubt. Like I said, I’d have to watch some of the Giants games again. I mostly remember LT being incredible with a very good but not great supporting cast. I remember being surprised when Carson finally made it into the HOF.

 

Carl Banks, Harry Carson, Pepper Johnson and Taylor made up one of the best LB combos ever.  Leonard Marshall i the mid 80's was a terror/sack machine.  Terry Kinard racked up 27 ints at FS 99 starts for the Giants.

 

19 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Well, I don't think that the Giant defensive unit was as talented or as balanced as certain others, for instance; the Championship Bears, The Steel Curtain, or even the Championship Bucs.

I am NOT dissing the Giants defense either. They were certainly the best coached unit perhaps ever. All I am saying is that I am not so sure how they would have measured up without LT.

 

The man was THAT good.

 

The same argument could easily be made about the 2000 Ravens without Ray Lewis.  How good are Jamie Sharper, Rob Burnett, Kim Herring, Sam Adams, Mike McCrary, Chris Mcallister, Peter Boulware (not exactly a murderer's row right there...) without Lewis?

Edited December 26, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[BuffaloSol]

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Watching some 30 for 30 last night: again the Bills SB run one and the one with BB and Parcells.  That D was insane.  They hurt everyone (Jim Burt v. Montana hit was epic).  Yet, after the '85 Bears and '00 Ravens, they rarely make a top 10m list.  Crazy.

 

 

Thoughts?

This is a Bills form bud.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

18 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Well, I don't think that the Giant defensive unit was as talented or as balanced as certain others, for instance; the Championship Bears, The Steel Curtain, or even the Championship Bucs.

I am NOT dissing the Giants defense either. They were certainly the best coached unit perhaps ever. All I am saying is that I am not so sure how they would have measured up without LT.

 

The man was THAT good.

 

They had pepper johnson - but he only made all-pro once.  Harry Carson is in the HOF and he was on that 86 team.  This is before my time - so its going to be based off of all-pro and HOFers.  

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The same argument could easily be made about the 2000 Ravens without Ray Lewis.  How good are Jamie Sharper, Rob Burnett, Kim Herring, Sam Adams, Mike McCrary, Chris Mcallister, Peter Boulware (not exactly a murderer's row right there...) without Lewis?

I don't disagree but that was not one of the teams that I listed.

[Bill from NYC]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

They had pepper johnson - but he only made all-pro once.  Harry Carson is in the HOF and he was on that 86 team.  This is before my time - so its going to be based off of all-pro and HOFers.  

Taylor made Carson and Johnson better players. He made everybody a better player. The man was like a machine. At times he was allowed by Parcells and Bellichick  to roam the field and do anything he wanted. Remember, the OP is about teams.

 

Btw, I am not making any all knowing proclamations. This is all jmo and a fun topic for conversation.

 

PS: There were a couple of Dallas defenses that I thought were better than the Giants.

[Rico]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Isn't meth still the number one industry in Missouri?

 

 

Carl Banks, Harry Carson, Pepper Johnson and Taylor made up one of the best LB combos ever.  Leonard Marshall i the mid 80's was a terror/sack machine.  Terry Kinard racked up 27 ints at FS 99 starts for the Giants.

 

 

The same argument could easily be made about the 2000 Ravens without Ray Lewis.  How good are Jamie Sharper, Rob Burnett, Kim Herring, Sam Adams, Mike McCrary, Chris Mcallister, Peter Boulware (not exactly a murderer's row right there...) without Lewis?

See I don’t put the Ravens up there, since I don’t remember them being dominant all year long, they just got hot at the right time. My greatest ever were the 85 Bears and 74(I think) Steelers. I will admit I could be underrating the 86 Giants, 14-2 and I do remember that beatdown they put on Joe in the playoffs.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Gonna take the coke out of Bruce's nose too?

 

 

Picking one player out when drug and PED use was rampant makes no sense, nor does it do anything to change the fact that that was a consistently dominant Defense for years.

 

 

Sure he was the best on that D, but the rest were great players in their own right.

Pretty sure Bruce has nothing to do with why the Giants D isn’t being regarded as one of the best ever.  That’s the discussion.

 

I do believe that the Giants D gets an asterisk in many peoples eyes due to being led by a crackhead.  They get an asterisk in my book as does he.  Not many tend to talk about him being a “cheater” but it’s in the back of their mind.  They know the crack helped him become an X-men type mutant on the football field.  He was truly unbelievable out there.

[Mr. WEO]

38 minutes ago, BuffaloSol said:

This is a Bills form bud.

 

Keep up your good work keeping us all safe from non-Bills threads.  We appreciate your service.

 

37 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

They had pepper johnson - but he only made all-pro once.  Harry Carson is in the HOF and he was on that 86 team.  This is before my time - so its going to be based off of all-pro and HOFers.  

 

You young whippersnappers!

 

37 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I don't disagree but that was not one of the teams that I listed.

 

24 minutes ago, Rico said:

See I don’t put the Ravens up there, since I don’t remember them being dominant all year long, they just got hot at the right time. My greatest ever were the 85 Bears and 74(I think) Steelers. I will admit I could be underrating the 86 Giants, 14-2 and I do remember that beatdown they put on Joe in the playoffs.

 

Those Ravens are routinely as the top 1 or 2 D of all time.  They were that good (only 10 ppg allowed--fewer than the '74 Steel Curtain or the '85 Bears). 

[row_33]

Those two Giants SBs were sealed by knocking Montana out of their playoff games

 

the Burt one the Giants were the best team but the Marshall one the Niners had the lead but Young couldn’t do the job

 

funny how nobody remembers SF was the better team that year the Giants upset the Bills

 

 

[Rico]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Keep up your good work keeping us all safe from non-Bills threads.  We appreciate your service.

 

 

You young whippersnappers!

 

 

 

Those Ravens are routinely as the top 1 or 2 D of all time.  They were that good (only 10 ppg allowed--fewer than the '74 Steel Curtain or the '85 Bears). 

Yeah, I know people put them there, but I don’t think were close to being as scary as the other 2. I’m sure Rich Gannon wouldn’t agree.