Foxx Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Muller did prove obstruction of Justice (Trump's own staff not listening to him saved his ass), although the Dems narrative on Trump being a Russian puppet always was stupid. But the Muller chargers were always going to be hard to get the public to get behind. The Ukraine stuff was much easier to understand. not sure you can prove obstruction of an underlying crime that you didn't commit. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, billsfan89 said: Trump ordered to have Mueller fired, This was not proven. It was never tested in court or under cross. It's not a "fact", it's a supposition. And now we know had Trump fired Mueller, he would have been justified because Mueller knew, from the time he took the job, that he was investigating something that DID NOT HAPPEN. You can't dodge that fact, even though you're trying to rewrite history. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: ... This Trump impeachment has been merely following the Clinton impeachment paradigm. It is no different, so in my mind there really isn't a new precedent. lol, sorry but no. there differences are quite stark. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: .What world do you people live in? In reality. You should join us. Warning, you will suffer withdrawals from weening yourself off the narrative pushed on you by proven liars and manipulators. But you can do it. I have faith in you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Trump ordered to have Mueller fired, it was Don McGahn not listening to him that saved his ass. Attempting a crime is still a crime.What world do you people live in? Jeffries: Is it fair to say the president viewed the special counsel’s investigation as adverse to his own interest? Mueller: I think that generally is true. Jeffries: The investigation found evidence, quote, “that the president knew that he should not have directed Don McGahn to fire the special counsel.” Correct? Mueller: Where do you have that quote? Jeffries: Page 90, volume 2. “There’s evidence that the president knew he should not have made those calls to McGahn,” closed quote. Mueller: I see that. Yes, that’s accurate. it is completely within the President's purview to fire anyone within the executive branch, period. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Trump ordered to have Mueller fired, it was Don McGahn not listening to him that saved his ass. Attempting a crime is still a crime.What world do you people live in? Jeffries: Is it fair to say the president viewed the special counsel’s investigation as adverse to his own interest? Mueller: I think that generally is true. Jeffries: The investigation found evidence, quote, “that the president knew that he should not have directed Don McGahn to fire the special counsel.” Correct? Mueller: Where do you have that quote? Jeffries: Page 90, volume 2. “There’s evidence that the president knew he should not have made those calls to McGahn,” closed quote. Mueller: I see that. Yes, that’s accurate. Mueller stated that President Trump did not in any way commit collusion/conspiracy. He also stated that he had no evidence of Obstruction of Justice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 37 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: That's fair to say that you think it was bad then and it is bad now. My only point in bringing up Clinton is to point out that neither political party is above it. I think the case against Trump is stronger (he most certainly violated campaign finance laws specifically) than it was against Clinton. But I think that the way the Dems have handled it has been poor. Granted I think that even if the Dems played it right the Senate would vote to acquit. I honestly think that Impeachment might only work if Trump and Guliani are called to testify and make such egregious errors. Which honestly given the moronic nature of both might actually happen. Other than that maybe Bolton could damage them politically but I think the Senate would still just call it partisan and explain away anything and everything. Fair enough. Though even if Trump's charge is "worse" than Clinton's, I'm not sure either rises to the level of impeachable (though Clinton perjured himself -- which is fairly simple to grasp, and wrong to do). And neither should support a conviction for removal (in my opinion). We certainly agree that the Dem handling of this matter is bad. I'd say very bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 34 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Trump ordered to have Mueller fired, it was Don McGahn not listening to him that saved his ass. Attempting a crime is still a crime.What world do you people live in? Jeffries: Is it fair to say the president viewed the special counsel’s investigation as adverse to his own interest? Mueller: I think that generally is true. Jeffries: The investigation found evidence, quote, “that the president knew that he should not have directed Don McGahn to fire the special counsel.” Correct? Mueller: Where do you have that quote? Jeffries: Page 90, volume 2. “There’s evidence that the president knew he should not have made those calls to McGahn,” closed quote. Mueller: I see that. Yes, that’s accurate. (1) what never got explained was whether Mueller was going to be fired and replaced. That may be obstruction. (2) probably more important, Mueller said directly and repeatedly that he was provided with all materials he requested from the Trump White House. How does that possibly square with obstruction? (3) Mueller found that there was no collusion. It is tough to understand how someone who didn't actually obstruct an investigation that turned up NO wrongdoing could be found to obstruct anything. (4) Mueller wasn't fired. I'd lay off the Mueller/Obstruction angle if I were you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 is obstruction a crime? is collusion? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 hour ago, billsfan89 said: That's fair to say that you think it was bad then and it is bad now. My only point in bringing up Clinton is to point out that neither political party is above it. I think the case against Trump is stronger (he most certainly violated campaign finance laws specifically) than it was against Clinton. That's just bizarre, considering there was concrete factual evidence of perjury against Clinton, but absolutely no such concrete factual evidence against Trump. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, DC Tom said: That's just bizarre, considering there was concrete factual evidence of perjury against Clinton, but absolutely no such concrete factual evidence against Trump. Forget it, Jake. It's NPC-town. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Bill knew the evidence was stacked against him and continued to lie about it, even when the jig was totally up. nobody would have cared if he admitted it and went on his way, but the continual lying, even under oath, left no choice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, row_33 said: Bill knew the evidence was stacked against him and continued to lie about it, even when the jig was totally up. nobody would have cared if he admitted it and went on his way, but the continual lying, even under oath, left no choice I said this at the time and I say it now. If Clinton wasn't so filled with hubris he might have come up with a statement regarding his previous denials were to only protect the reputation of a young lady. He could have come out of it viewed in a much more sympathetic light and almost be considered a stand up guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, 3rdnlng said: I said this at the time and I say it now. If Clinton wasn't so filled with hubris he might have come up with a statement regarding his previous denials were to only protect the reputation of a young lady. He could have come out of it viewed in a much more sympathetic light and almost be considered a stand up guy. nobody believed he was a saint his hitman Carville made it much worse for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 43 minutes ago, DC Tom said: That's just bizarre, considering there was concrete factual evidence of perjury against Clinton, but absolutely no such concrete factual evidence against Trump. Simple question, if your boss tells you to commit a crime, you decide to not listen to your boss did your boss commit a crime? Before you take any negative comments about your great leader as I support impeaching him over that. I think that this type of obstruction charge would be as equally flimsy a charge as the Clinton impeachment. Both committed crimes but neither crimes were sever enough to warrant removal. "President Donald Trump reportedly ordered last June that special counsel Robert Mueller be fired, and White House counsel Don McGahn threatened to quit rather than ask the Justice Department to do that."https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-trump-ordered-mueller-firing-white-house-counsel-threatened-to-quit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 There is no rational argument to support the assertion that President Trump violated campaign finance laws. None. At all. It's not even close. If there was an argument that wouldn't get you laughed out of court the Dems would be coming with it full force. There's a reason why no one outside of fringe partisan Twitter trolls are even suggesting such a thing. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Simple question, if your boss tells you to commit a crime, you decide to not listen to your boss did your boss commit a crime? Before you take any negative comments about your great leader as I support impeaching him over that. I think that this type of obstruction charge would be as equally flimsy a charge as the Clinton impeachment. Both committed crimes but neither crimes were sever enough to warrant removal. "President Donald Trump reportedly ordered last June that special counsel Robert Mueller be fired, and White House counsel Don McGahn threatened to quit rather than ask the Justice Department to do that."https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-trump-ordered-mueller-firing-white-house-counsel-threatened-to-quit The question is: Would firing Mueller be a crime? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: The question is: Would firing Mueller be a crime? Yes that would literally be obstruction of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts