Run Defense - Interesting Stats/Observations

[row_33]

48 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But stats show us that teams that run more win more often! - football guy 

 

i've watched the Pats seem to run 33 straight times in a playoff game, then throw 33 straight in other games...

 

you do what you have to to win the game in real time and let people sift through the sawdust of the stats (for free!!!)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I know its a problem, my point was a little more nuanced than that.  In any event, your second point is the real problem. the margin for error is razor thin, and that needs to get fixed. In a hurry. 

 

If you're trying to make a nuanced point, you might wish to phrase it a bit less absolutely than " I think its fair to acknowledge that giving up 5 yards every time the ball is handed off is legitimately a much bigger problem than giving up two big runs and some QB scrambles a game.  "

 

Your later qualification is making the assumption that every play is a run play thus no 3rd downs.  A totally porous run D is a problem, sure, but that doesn't mean the offense is running on every down.  And if one stuffs the run on 1st and 2nd then gives up 10-20 yds on 3rd down, the eventual result is the same.

 

Let's just say that giving up a TDs 4 out of 5 drives is a big problem, however the team gets there. 

[C.Biscuit97]

18 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

i've watched the Pats seem to run 33 straight times in a playoff game, then throw 33 straight in other games...

 

you do what you have to to win the game in real time and let people sift through the sawdust of the stats (for free!!!)

The Pats gameplan to their opponents weaknesses.  It’s weird that works!

[iinii]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Junction said:

So your point is that average players are an exploitable hole at any position on a football team? IMO a hole is a player that is overmatched by any legitimate talent.... Kind of like when we trotted out Cedric Thornton at DT. 
 

For the record, I would love to have four probowl Olinemen like the eagles, especially if paired with all of KCs playmakers. The NFL isn’t Madden though, so the cap reality of the NFL dictates that top salaries require saving money elsewhere. It’s why some of these “stacked” teams have absolute trash for depth at key positions or try to get by with poor starters.... Just look at the Chiefs defense if you want an example. 

I was speaking to your point of how the Bills starters would start on other teams. Miami, yes. NE, SF, LA Lambs .....not so much. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you're trying to make a nuanced point, you might wish to phrase it a bit less absolutely than " I think its fair to acknowledge that giving up 5 yards every time the ball is handed off is legitimately a much bigger problem than giving up two big runs and some QB scrambles a game.  "

 

Your later qualification is making the assumption that every play is a run play thus no 3rd downs.  A totally porous run D is a problem, sure, but that doesn't mean the offense is running on every down.  And if one stuffs the run on 1st and 2nd then gives up 10-20 yds on 3rd down, the eventual result is the same.

 

Let's just say that giving up a TDs 4 out of 5 drives is a big problem, however the team gets there. 

 

Yes, I have been punished for half the day with frequent notifications because I used poor wording. Thank you. 

 

The point remains. The problem is not a crisis.  The Eagles sprung a big run on a blown assignment.  Aside from that, they could not effectively run the ball.  What that means is that at a fundamental level, the run defense is OK. But it also means that care needs to be given to ensure consistency on EVERY play. 

[mjt328]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

When the opposing players are pointing out after the game that they successively gashed us on variations of the same play over and over and we couldn't stop them, I can't absolve the coaching staff and the scheme.  It's on them to figure out what's going on, call a time out if they need to and make some changes.

 

But as I detailed in the original post, the sequence of plays you are referring to all occurred in the 4th Quarter - and almost entirely on a single drive.

 

At that point of the game,  it was too late for the coaching staff to make significant gameplan adjustments.  The Bills were also down by 2 scores and couldn't really afford to use a timeout to get the defense together again.

 

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And yes, if someone can execute the same play over and over and it can't be stopped within the context of the game, that is exposed.  It's there on film.  If you can do this, you can gash them.  Proven until we stop it.

 

Exposed doesn't mean the D played the whole game like crap, because they didn't.  I'm well aware of the frustrating fact that we stopped or stuffed play after play to put them in 3rd and long, only to let them out of it.   But you can't except runs by Carson Wentz and Agholar and the 65 yard run and then use it to say the run D didn't have a bad game and didn't have a weakness exposed, because they did, and they did.

 

The defense had a really bad game.  I'm not excusing that at all.

And the Bills coaching staff absolutely needs to shore up the problems revealed during the 4th Quarter, or it will lead to additional struggles down the line.

 

There has been a theme going on since Sunday, stating the Eagles spotted a clear weakness in the Bills run defense, continually exploited it throughout the game, and McDermott/Frazier were totally powerless to make the needed adjustments to stop it.  My goal was to show this wasn't completely true.

 

In reality, the Bills run defense was gashed on ONE play in the first 45 minutes of the game.  

The wheels totally came off in the 4th Quarter, and by that point, the coaches were in a tough position to make drastic changes.

 

 

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

PS various people looking at film put the big run on Milano as well as Hyde.  Do I mistake, or did you call out Poyer in another thread?

 

Agreed.  I think the play was a mix of Milano failing to get off the block, and Hyde hesitating into the hole - then taking a bad angle.  

I mistakenly said Poyer in another thread, but it was clearly Hyde when I watched the play again.

 

 

7 hours ago, dneveu said:

And when you look at what was accomplished in the pass game?  Screens did most of the damage, and they caught us in man coverage on the bigger screen plays.

 

Screens were a completely different issue, and another thing that needs adjusting.

As was our ability to stop the Quarterback scrambles.

 

I started the thread to discuss the Run Defense by itself, since that was what had most people in an uproar.

 

[row_33]

turning New Era into the Linc and a leap into the crowd for 2 minutes wasn't a good thing

 

 

[mjt328]

7 hours ago, row_33 said:

"Outside of the big run and some QB scrambles, the run defense played very well until the 4th Quarter.  "

 

Apart from letting in those 7 runs in the 2nd inning, the pitching staff was real good today in the 8-0 loss.

 

 

 

Not the same thing.

 

And I never said the Run Defense had a good day.

 

My point was to show the breakdowns were more isolated than most fans realize, which suggests it would be easier to correct.

 

 

[row_33]

3 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

 

Not the same thing.

 

And I never said the Run Defense had a good day.

 

My point was to show the breakdowns were more isolated than most fans realize, which suggests it would be easier to correct.

 

 

 

the game is over, hopefully some intense team game film review was dished out, and they learn from it

 

they'll have to play a decent team again some time in November, right?

 

 

[mjt328]

7 hours ago, GG said:

On second read, the post doesn't make sense to me.  It was a bad defensive outing, but defense nor the coaching staff shouldn't shoulder all the blame?

 

Never said the players don't shoulder the blame.  Our Run Defense was a huge reason for the loss, and it was acknowledged in the original post.

If you let up a 65-yard touchdown run, somebody screwed up.

If you get run over in the 4th Quarter and can't stop the opposing team, it's clearly a problem.

 

My point was to show the Run Defense wasn't a continual problem for 4 Quarters.

It was a single run in the 3rd Quarter, and then two drives in the 4th Quarter.

 

7 hours ago, GG said:

I'd put this one more on the coaches.

Just because the Eagles took advantage of a scheme or an alignment, doesn't necessarily mean it's the fault of the coaching staff.

 

Like I said, what the Bills were doing on Run Defense was working for the majority of the first 45 minutes.

If Josh Allen doesn't fumble, the defense lets up 3 points in the first half.  If Hyde takes a better angle to the ball, the big touchdown run never happens.

 

At the time everything fell apart, they really had no reason to adjust on Run Defense.  The biggest problem at that point was stopping Philly's screen game.

Once the Eagles started ramming the ball down our throat, it was too late for them to really make changes.

 

 

6 minutes ago, row_33 said:

the game is over, hopefully some intense team game film review was dished out, and they learn from it

 

they'll have to play a decent team again some time in November, right?

 

 

What they learn from this game will be important when we face Baltimore.

 

[mjpbills]

7 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

All this talk about the run defense, I just want an offense that can hold its own in the passing game era. That’s all I want for Christmas.

What year? I've been waiting for since the 90's.

 

[GG]

33 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

Never said the players don't shoulder the blame.  Our Run Defense was a huge reason for the loss, and it was acknowledged in the original post.

If you let up a 65-yard touchdown run, somebody screwed up.

If you get run over in the 4th Quarter and can't stop the opposing team, it's clearly a problem.

 

My point was to show the Run Defense wasn't a continual problem for 4 Quarters.

It was a single run in the 3rd Quarter, and then two drives in the 4th Quarter.

 

Just because the Eagles took advantage of a scheme or an alignment, doesn't necessarily mean it's the fault of the coaching staff.

 

Like I said, what the Bills were doing on Run Defense was working for the majority of the first 45 minutes.

If Josh Allen doesn't fumble, the defense lets up 3 points in the first half.  If Hyde takes a better angle to the ball, the big touchdown run never happens.

 

At the time everything fell apart, they really had no reason to adjust on Run Defense.  The biggest problem at that point was stopping Philly's screen game.

Once the Eagles started ramming the ball down our throat, it was too late for them to really make changes.

 

 

 

What they learn from this game will be important when we face Baltimore.

 

It was brought up in other threads, that upon further review, the Eagles really beat the Bills with the short passing game more than the run.  You’re right that the runs in question occurred when the game was essentially over.  The Eagles completely dictated the tone all game long.  It just took them to the second half to fully execute.

[Mr. WEO]

Here's some more numbers I didn't see in the OP:
 

"The Eagles rushed for a season-high 218 yards, including 156 in the second half. Jordan Howard was the battering ram, rushing for 96 yards on 23 carries, the most rushing attempts by a back in the Doug Pederson era. But rookie Miles Sanders and quarterback Carson Wentz also made significant ground contributions."

 

"The Eagles ran the ball 21 times in the fourth quarter, including eight (for 34 yards) by Howard on their game-clinching, 14-play, 83-yard touchdown drive."

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, GG said:

It was brought up in other threads, that upon further review, the Eagles really beat the Bills with the short passing game more than the run.  You’re right that the runs in question occurred when the game was essentially over.  The Eagles completely dictated the tone all game long.  It just took them to the second half to fully execute.

 

The passing game that beat us on their answer-back TD was set up by the run, and YAC was critical, not? 
I'm talking about the 4+ minute drive in the 3Q, immediately after the Bills scored on their 1st offensive series of the 2nd half.

 

 

[Old Coot]

Basic question.  The Bills Base run D does the DL play

1) to tie up the OL to keep the LBs clean so they can make the tackle, or 

2) to defeat the OL & make the tackle?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 hours ago, row_33 said:

"Outside of the big run and some QB scrambles, the run defense played very well until the 4th Quarter.  "

 

 

Apart from letting in those 7 runs in the 2nd inning, the pitching staff was real good today in the 8-0 loss.

 

 

...smart azz......just made me ruin another pair of Depends....dammit.............

[GG]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The passing game that beat us on their answer-back TD was set up by the run, and YAC was critical, not? 
I'm talking about the 4+ minute drive in the 3Q, immediately after the Bills scored on their 1st offensive series of the 2nd half.

 

 

 

The back breaking TD drive to go up 24-13 featured Eagles longest pass 38 yards, followed by two short passes (after a sack) for 18 yards to get to Bills 19.  So that's 4 straight passing plays to drive down the field.  The run was featured in their game capping drive.

[artmalibu]

Who cares how the defense plays when the offense only score 13 point at home.  Its real hard to win when you only score 13 points.  

 

I was hoping the offense would improve as they got some games under their belt, but after 7 games still not much to talk about.  Maybe by the time the playoffs come along things will be clicking well enough to be relevant.