The Death of the New Era of Running QBs Has Been Greatly Exaggerated

[Boatdrinks]

While plays will still have to be made from the pocket, the NFL game is changing . It’s becoming more college like. QBs are now a “ protected class”. The added weapon of mobility will remain a pert of these QBs games. Can’t just look at the past without acknowledging the rules changes. Unlike RG 3, who was too slightly built and actually ran too much these guys can make the required plays from the pocket. Fans just have to adjust to watching the game differently because those involved in the game are coaching/ playing it differently to suit the times. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Boatdrinks

[CLTbills]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Today:  Ravens leading the Browns late. 296 yards on the ground, including 92 from Lamar Jackson; offense is just plain better than it was with Flacco, and yes, the running game in general (even other ballcarriers) is better with Jackson opening things up.  Josh Allen: 95 yards rushing; Bills 42 points.

Just a couple seasons ago, we were being told that the Kaepernicks and Vicks of recent years were now a thing of the past, and that pocket passers are the future. Not so fast!  On the homefront, my biggest takeaway from Josh Allen's rookie campaign is this: very effective when he doesn't hesitate to run; very ineffective when he tries to be a pocket passer.  Set Josh free!

What I love about Josh, though, is that he CAN do either... which makes him more lethal. We had a running QB in Tyrod, but he couldn't throw the ball. I think we can ALL agree on then difference in on-field results.

 

the other thing I like (and you saw it today on his long TD run) is that he doesn't throw it just for the sake of throwing it. If he's got a guy open for a ten yard gain, but he knows he can get 15 with his legs, he'll take the 15 every time. Clay was open for a big gain but he saw a shot to score. He doesn't just force a throw because he's "supposed to." The fact that he can be so lethal with his arm makes his running game even more efficient.

Edited December 31, 2018 by CLTbills

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, CLTbills said:

What I love about Josh, though, is that he CAN do either... which makes him more lethal. We had a running QB in Tyrod, but he couldn't throw the ball.

 

the other thing I like (and you saw it today on his long TD run) is that he doesn't throw it just for the sake of throwing it. If he's to a guy open for a ten yard gain, but he knows he can get 15 with his legs, he'll take the 15 every time. He doesn't just force a throw because he's "supposed to." The fact that he can be so lethal with his arm makes his running game even more efficient.

I do think it's a normal progression. For a guy like Allen - tons of athletic ability, very little experience (not even high level college experience) - it's natural for him to want to improvise and let his pure gifts shine. He has extreme confidence in his ability to make something out of nothing. The hope is with experience - and a more talented/better designed offense around him - he'll go the way of Steve Young or John Elway or certain phases of Russell Wilson, playing in a more structured, less improvisational manner. I'm reasonably confident that it'll happen, but for now, I think the best Allen is the freelancing Allen, and I think that will remain true at least for next year too. Part of me wants him to play without any constraints next year because I think the good will outweigh the bad.

[CLTbills]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I do think it's a normal progression. For a guy like Allen - tons of athletic ability, very little experience (not even high level college experience) - it's natural for him to want to improvise and let his pure gifts shine. He has extreme confidence in his ability to make something out of nothing. The hope is with experience - and a more talented/better designed offense around him - he'll go the way of Steve Young or John Elway or certain phases of Russell Wilson, playing in a more structured, less improvisational manner. I'm reasonably confident that it'll happen, but for now, I think the best Allen is the freelancing Allen, and I think that will remain true at least for next year too. Part of me wants him to play without any constraints next year because I think the good will outweigh the bad.

Well that's kind of what I mean. Everybody WANTS him to be a pocket passer... but he doesn't become one just because he's supposed to. He's going to make the biggest play that he can make, no matter how he has to do it. I agree with you 100% though.

[CincyBillsFan]

21 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

While plays will still have to be made from the pocket, the NFL game is changing . It’s becoming more college like. QBs are now a “ protected class”. The added weapon of mobility wills remain a pert of these QBs games. Can’t just look at the past without acknowledging the rules changes. Unlike RG 3, who was too slight and actually ran too much these guys can make the required plays from the pocket. Fans just have to adjust to watching the game differently because those involved in the game are coaching/ playing it differently to suit the times. 

I think you're on to something here.  The NFL has copied the college games spread offensive attack but have left out a key ingredient - the QB who can both pass AND run.   That combined with the new targeting rules means that it may now be possible for a QB to be productive on the ground, stay healthy and still be an effective passer.  IMO Allen has this potential. 

 

It means that the QB of the future may not need to hit 70% of their passes to be elite.  He may need to be able to run for 75 - 90 yards in a game while completing 55% of his passes.  The new QB metrics that define how good a QB is might be passing TD's, rushing TD's, passing yards, rushing yards and yards per completion and fumbles lost/INT's thrown. 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

As far as injury risk goes, there's also a rethinking of things regarding pocket passers vs. mobile or running QBs. Major QB injuries the last few years include Teddy Bridgewater (pocket passer, non-contact injury), Joe Flacco (same), Bradford (same), Deshaun Watson (running QB, but non-contact injury), Wentz (mobile QB, non-contact injury this year, but injured on a hit while running last year if I remember correctly), Alex Smith (mobile, but injured while trying to avoid a big rush up the middle), Mariota (running QB, but shoulder injury I believe started with a sack in the pocket ... correct me if I'm wrong), Garoppolo (mobile, injury happened on a run but was non-contact); Tannehill (running QB, or at least "mobile," but injuries were on non-contact plays). Meanwhile Russell Wilson hasn't missed a start in his NFL career.

I'm not saying running isn't dangerous. It can be. But the idea that a mobile QB, or even a flat-out run-happy QB is significantly more likely to suffer a major injury just doesn't seem to be supported by recent history. A lot of this may, of course, have to do with rule changes of the sort that made Kiko's hit today illegal.

Edited December 31, 2018 by The Frankish Reich

[row_33]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Correct re: Elway. Not correct re: Young!  It wasn't that apparent because his early years were in the USFL, but he was criticized widely for thinking "run first." And he ran a fair amount in his early NFL years. As he go more fully indoctrinated in the Walsh system, he became more of a "mobile QB" than a "running QB." That's a normal progression if the QB is smart and willing to adapt. But my point here: right now, Allen succeeds because he's a running QB; at this stage of his development, he's not much of a threat if you take the run away.

 

Young had one of the all time QB runs for a TD in NFL history, it wasn’t a shocker he pulled that off

 

Got a Burger King ad out of it

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

As long as he gets down and slides quicker no reason to take the run game away from him

 

I think he has done a great job of protecting himself on his runs. The only time he takes a beating is when he is trying to score a TD. That's understandable when you are trying to make a play at the goal line. Otherwise he does a great job of sliding. He often slides early and gives up yards. Where he is getting killed at times is inside the pocket.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

Is there a distinction here between run first QB's, and QB's who can run? 

 

Because the example of Wilson falls apart because he is such a great thrower as well. Vick is close to the only QB who had consistent success as a run first QB, but even then, he could still throw the ball extremely well. 

 

QB's that run are not that rare and are a great piece, if they stay healthy. 

 

Run first QB's are not usually successful as they are eventually forced to beat a team with their arm and a lot of them fall short (Kapernick, Taylor, Tebow, etc). 

 

Jackson didn't win the game for the Ravens today. When the Browns keyed in on his running they started coming back and then that last drive when the Ravens could have put it away, it ended up being a disaster. There was no fear from the Browns to stacking the box and forcing Jackson to throw. The defense bailed him out, but they were closer than it should have been. 

 

Not to say that Jackson can't become more successful, but that model that they are employing now only works because of a great line, and a phenomenal defense. I hope it keeps working for them if it means they can beat New England. 

Most of the great running QBs could throw and throw well. Vick had a fantastic arm. I have already pulled out the ancient example of Bobby Douglass as a Josh Allen type - cannon arm, fantastic runner. Kaep, of course, had that famous pitcher's fastball arm. The problem with all of the above was reading defenses .... and that will be what determines whether Allen become Kaepernick or, well, Favre? Cutler? Rodgers?

[Mark Vader]

2 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

Young ran all the time

 

Young would run as a last resort. I almost never saw designed running plays for Young.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 hours ago, /dev/null said:

In 1987 John Elway rushed for 304 yards

In 1992 Steve Young rushed for 537

 

In 11 games Josh Allen rushed for 536

 

Elway and Young weren't running QBs.  They were mobile QBs

 

I would categorize Allen as the same. He's only been running 9 times a game since he came back from the injury. Less actually because there are at least 5 kneel downs I think in that total. Compare that to Lamar Jackson who is running nearly twice as much as Allen. 

[row_33]

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

Young would run as a last resort. I almost never saw designed running plays for Young.

 

Sorry you missed his career, he loved to run, lots of great hi-lites.

 

 

[Mark Vader]

1 minute ago, row_33 said:

 

Sorry you missed his career, he loved to run, lots of great hi-lites.

 

 

I grew up watching 49'ers football on local television for years.

 

Young did like running, but he was a pass first quarterback. He ran only when he had to.

[BillsVet]

14 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Most of the great running QBs could throw and throw well. Vick had a fantastic arm. I have already pulled out the ancient example of Bobby Douglass as a Josh Allen type - cannon arm, fantastic runner. Kaep, of course, had that famous pitcher's fastball arm. The problem with all of the above was reading defenses .... and that will be what determines whether Allen become Kaepernick or, well, Favre? Cutler? Rodgers?

 

Bobby Douglass and Fran Tarkenton haven't played a NFL game in 40 years.  Whatever they did has no bearing on whether running QBs (whatever that is) works in 2018.  

 

Vick was on the winning side in a post-season game twice as a starting QB and not after his suspension.  His highest total for rushing was 2006, when Atlanta went 7-9.        

 

Every example you've cited in this thread has not been relevant to the modern NFL or proven that "running QBs" can win consistently.  Furthermore, Kaepernick and Vick were exposed because they were simply not accurate enough throwing the ball.  Defenses learned how to contain them.   

 

And besides, Kaepernick, Favre, Cutler, and Rodgers can never be lumped into the same group.  All were different type QBs.    

[CincyBillsFan]

On the topic of how a QB gets hurt am I the only one who was screaming at the TV telling Allen not to throw any more blocks?  I thought his attempts to impersonate O-linemen were by far his most dangerous plays.  And for the record he wasn't very good at it.