Broken Pass Protections - Why? What's the Fix?

[frostbitmic]

2 hours ago, Paulus said:

 

Better ask that guy for a pay cut and screw us all over, 'cause we so smat...

Would he have his dead fathers head hanging in his locker ?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I am gonna champion Josh Allen every chance I get.....but I am sure that some of this does fall on the QB not recognizing protections.

 

In some cases, Josh Allen fails to recognize a stunting blitz requires protections to be adjusted so someone will pick up the blitzer, or that the called play plain won't work pre-snap because of the defensive alignment.

 

This was not one of those cases.  This was a straight hat-on-hat 6v6, then the TE peels a guy off with him 5v5. 

 

I commend to you the Eric Wood interview I linked in another post, about 19:30 in.  Usually with a young QB, the center calls the protections at the line.  If they are leaving it to the QB to recognize and make this level of protection assignments, that's incredible. 

 

And when I say incredible, I mean that's crap.  It's putting too much on his plate.

 

43 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

The fix? The fix is obviously better linemen needed. Which won't happen til the offseason. And maybe the Oline coach may have a little to do with it. ?

 

I'm sorry, but that "the fix is better linemen" is just bunk on this play.  Unless these guys have the brains of corn root nematodes (which the fact that they're walking about getting dressed argues against), this isn't a case of "better linemen needed".   What we have here is plain and simple, a failure to communicate or to Understand One's Job.  A job HS OLs around the country get the flick on every Friday night.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You might find some interest in this interview of Eric Wood by Erik Turner up on Youtube.  About 19:35 into it, he starts talking about the differences between working with a vet QB vs a young QB and how the center takes a larger role with the young guy.  It's pretty clear also from the play they talk through, that setting those protections at the line is a huge challenge in a noisy visiting stadium.  

 

Anyway, if it's being left to Allen as a rookie to be setting the protections, that's just WRONG.  It's too much on his plate.  Wood did it for EJ and Taylor.  Bodine or Groy should be doing it for Allen.  That's not to say that Allen doesn't have a role in recognizing in an overload who the unblocked guy is going to be and what that means for his reads, or in this case recognize that if the LB rush that leaves space for crossing routes over the middle.  But this is a "hat on hat" situation, and it really shouldn't be Allen's job to define who's got the MLB if he comes.  Know what the MLB rushing means to coverage, yes.  Define who picks him up, no.

 

 

 

I totally get that. In fact, that's more "common sense" to me. I wasn't trying to put down Allen so much, as opposed to simply pointing out that this type of thing happening is to be expected somewhat..."rookie mistakes" and all. Yeah, the center probably "deserves" more blame in this instance, and in instances like this that we've seen since the preseason, where blitzers are unaccounted for and run free (the first red flag was the Panthers sending a DB blitz in the preseason). Bodine, and to an extent, Groy, are obviously much more experienced in this department than Allen (or any rookie) is. I put quotations around "deserves" because IMO the play being dissected here is more about the defense and the DC doing a good job, as opposed to the Bills offensive line/QB doing a bad job (although the discrepancy isn't very large; Bills obviously didn't do a good enough job). Also, I'm trying to watch the replay to see in real time. This play wasn't at the 1:49 mark of the 2nd quarter, but I remember thinking to myself, watching that play live, that it was atrocious. 

 

I actually like what Allen has done so far, given the circumstances he's been thrust into (just in case my first post was taken more as an "I'm 'negative Allen'" comment). I'm hopeful for him, yet I wasnt ready to annoint him like many were after the Vikings game, just like many were after week 2 of the preseason. Just want to make that clear.

 

 

[Ol Dirty B]

9 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Would he have his dead fathers head hanging in his locker ?

 

Man that's wacked... but I laughed.

 

Great breakdown though Hapless. 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In this situation the OL weren't physically dominated.  It was clearly a case of confusion about who to block.  They had two OLmen blocking air while two LB shot the gap.

 

Yes. Shouldn't the DC get more credit here, as opposed to simply laying blame on the Bills? Not trying to absolve them; they've looked bad more than good this year, but this was good scheming and study by Pettine and the Packers defense.

[Gugny]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

This is an example of the play calling and execution that has me saying

"No, Daboll does NOT get a 'pass' for this year. 

Just no.  Fix it, or Get Out."

 

 

Thanks for this, Hap.  Great post.

 

Empty backfield is asinine; especially with this "line."

 

Play calling is horrible.  We all saw what happened vs. MIN when the Bills used the running game to set up the passing game.  But the other three games have been horribly predictable on offense.

 

Play calling stinks; execution stinks; effort stinks.  If this is the "culture" or the "character" McDermott is building, color me concerned.  In the end, it's on him.  A quarter into the season, Daboll looks like a bad (I'm being kind with that adjective) hire.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

Yes. Shouldn't the DC get more credit here, as opposed to simply laying blame on the Bills? Not trying to absolve them; they've looked bad more than good this year, but this was good scheming and study by Pettine and the Packers defense.

 

Oh, I don't know, Drunken Goat.   From the look pre-snap, this really should be a straightforward hat-on-hat play.  I can't imagine a DC would bank on a team leaving two LB free to charge up the middle at the QB.  If that's the result of study and scheming, we're really hosed.

 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Thanks for this, Hap.  Great post.

 

Empty backfield is asinine; especially with this "line."

 

Play calling is horrible.  We all saw what happened vs. MIN when the Bills used the running game to set up the passing game.  But the other three games have been horribly predictable on offense.

 

Play calling stinks; execution stinks; effort stinks.  If this is the "culture" or the "character" McDermott is building, color me concerned.  In the end, it's on him.  A quarter into the season, Daboll looks like a bad (I'm being kind with that adjective) hire.

 

When I  read the OP, my fist thought was "why are the Bills throwing the ball on 2nd down, at midfield, with 1:49 left in the half?" The Packers offense has been moving the ball pretty much at will, and risking an incompletion in that situation would potentially spare the Packers a timeout in the event that they get the ball back. When you're facing the best QB of all time, hobbled or not, you burn clock or opponent's timeouts before the half. 

 

But that wasn't the scenario.

 

That being said, the Bills game plan on offense against the Packers was HORRIBLE to put it mildly. It's as if they were expecting Josh Allen and the Bills outclassed offense to be competetive in a shootout against the best QB of all time. Their misuse of McCoy (really the run game in general; the Packers were abused on the ground by Washington the week prior) was comparable to the Bills' misuse of C.J. Spiller against the Chargers several years ago, bruised rubs and all.

 

The Bills offensive play calling against Minnesota was heavily gifted by the defense balling out very early and often. A high school OC could seal the deal after the hole Minnesota was put in during the 1st quarter. 

 

I was rather encouraged by the Daboll hire, even after his previously failed OC stints in the NFL, but so far, I'm not impressed. And that's while considering the circumstances. I fully expect the run game to be much more of a focal point going forward, especially after McDermott's and McCoy's post game comments.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

When I  read the OP, my fist thought was "why are the Bills throwing the ball on 2nd down, at midfield, with 1:49 left in the half?" The Packers offense has been moving the ball pretty much at will, and risking an incompletion in that situation would potentially spare the Packers a timeout in the event that they get the ball back. When you're facing the best QB of all time, hobbled or not, you burn clock or opponent's timeouts before the half. 

 

But that wasn't the scenario.

 

That being said, the Bills game plan on offense against the Packers was HORRIBLE to put it mildly. It's as if they were expecting Josh Allen and the Bills outclassed offense to be competetive in a shootout against the best QB of all time. Their misuse of McCoy (really the run game in general; the Packers were abused on the ground by Washington the week prior) was comparable to the Bills' misuse of C.J. Spiller against the Chargers several years ago, bruised rubs and all.

 

The Bills offensive play calling against Minnesota was heavily gifted by the defense balling out very early and often. A high school OC could seal the deal after the hole Minnesota was put in during the 1st quarter. 

 

I was rather encouraged by the Daboll hire, even after his previously failed OC stints in the NFL, but so far, I'm not impressed. And that's while considering the circumstances. I fully expect the run game to be much more of a focal point going forward, especially after McDermott's and McCoy's post game comments.

 

Agree on everything - but I do give the offense more credit for the MIN game..  The lack of running game is criminal.  If McCoy is hurt and that's why he only had 5 carries, then so be it.  But NO ONE had carries.

 

McDermott's not-so -subtle call out of Daboll was a great sign.  My feeling is that Daboll is married to an offensive game plan and stubborn.  Problem is ... his game plan is more suited for Drew Brees or Tom Brady.  We ran into stubborn bull **** setting this team back years with the Ryan circus.  If McDermott enables another round of it and the Pegulas sit and let it happen again, I'll be close to my wit's end.

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, dpberr said:

It's more evidence to heap on  a mountain of evidence that Juan Castillo needs to be fired.  He's the guy in charge of making sure "his" guys know what they are doing.

 

It's clear they don't.  

 

These gameday errors are made because of shotty game day prep and a lack of focus and discipline.  Considering the OL issues go back to training camp, that suggests it's a systemic disconnect between OC, unit coach and personnel.  I don't think the guys on the OL are stupid  or not good at football, but it's clear they aren't where they should be and to me, that falls on the teachers.  

I pray each week. seriously. on Monday though. Bills already have a transition plan to boot Castillo and hard.
The errors are not Play calling so much as execution and effort from the O line. The only reasons we keep these veterans is because of their Game awareness and ability to to execute to play correctly.
 Painful, and i have no idea how anyone on the Bills organization can say otherwise.

so someone sure as f better have a working plan to get this crap sorted yesterday.

Daboll is new. Castillo likely gets benefit of the doubt till last weekend.
 

time to move on. Daboll should have found a guy by now and McB should trust Brian to run BD's offense via Daboll's new O line Coach.

it's not you, it's not me . it's Castillo who is ruining Sundays

 

whos with me..

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I am gonna champion Josh Allen every chance I get.....but I am sure that some of this does fall on the QB not recognizing protections.

 

This will come with time for a rookie QB.

 

but its not all on him.....the truth is our OL is flat getting whooped......you have to be able to run the ball to

 I agree on each point

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Good stuff and Amen!

 

This is why many of us wanted line coach/run game coordinator Juan Castillo fired along with Dennison. He did less with more last year and this year the O line coaching is basically non-existent. Castillo must have comprising pics of McD...

 

Free rushers coming unblocked when a TE, RB, WR was there to make the block and it's like it doesn't even cross their mind. This is a rookie QB who doesn't yet know what he is looking at with defensive formations or who is coming or dropping, Every player on offense should be making a concerted effort to pick up a block if needed.

 

Things are much worse than just free rushers coming unblocked though. This is about the line players blocking the wrong man, whiffing on blocks, not picking up stunts, not helping that rookie QB with protections. 

 

This entire offense is a joke with no run game and it really gets me mad as hell that the rookie QB the team spent so much time and effort to acquire probably won't survive the season. 

 

 

Interesting and similar take to mine.

 Rookie QB and Bodine are going to make mistakes. everyone is.

 But when a Bills player sees a rusher is going to come free and kill your QB ? you need to break off and at least chip.
too many time i see O line double team a DT while seeing that someone is is about to rush free.
Terrible attitude. or just stupid ?
 Sometimes you just need to recognize a bad or broken play call and calculate and react. then line up again.
but jeez. the Line looks like it is making widgets. just doing what is called for and not a drop more.

 

btw i already know the counter argument.
But how many sacks last week ?

doing your job is not enough at this point in Bills Offense. 

 Make a damned play O line. Make me cheer

please

[ctk232]

1 hour ago, DRA3196 said:

 

 you bring up a good point about line spacing or "spreads". If they tightened them up they would not only be able to communicate better, create better blocking angles, give the defense less room to maneuver, it would also make the field appear wider and give our RB's and WR's more room to operate. 

In reference to the specific play from OP, this was more a complete head-scratcher on Millier's part than anything else, especially spacing. There's no reason he should be blocking the DE on this play. The spacing issues you are seeing are due to poor play execution. The line spacing in this formation actually looks tighter than some if not most NFL offenses.

 

Especially in pass protect, the tackles will have just the crown of their helmets in line with the center's waist to give them an extra step and cut off those angles. 

 

It looks like Miller blew his assignment here is all. Funny enough, there's OL philosophies that rely more on having space b/t the guys (maybe an arms length and a half) and execute blocking schemes that force the rushers to fill in gaps and essentially end up blocking their own guys. It's a key component to picking up blitzes as well - blocking primary rushers into the secondary rushers gaps and lanes helps keep pass protect when facing blitzes.

Edited October 5, 2018 by ctk232

[3rdand12]

16 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Agree on everything - but I do give the offense more credit for the MIN game..  The lack of running game is criminal.  If McCoy is hurt and that's why he only had 5 carries, then so be it.  But NO ONE had carries.

 

McDermott's not-so -subtle call out of Daboll was a great sign.  My feeling is that Daboll is married to an offensive game plan and stubborn.  Problem is ... his game plan is more suited for Drew Brees or Tom Brady.  We ran into stubborn bull **** setting this team back years with the Ryan circus.  If McDermott enables another round of it and the Pegulas sit and let it happen again, I'll be close to my wit's end.

Gug,

you may be right but you may be wrong. a little anyways.
I feel that the Brina hire was actually because his flexibility. working with so many different ones in some capacity over the years. I think his knowledge is deep.
 giving him a pass as he just came from College ranks and was focused and those processes.
 

 But yes it has not looked smart fro the most part so far.

 And i agree , the run game need to be setting up the pass. It is criminal with Ivory and Dimarco available to grind yards and wear a defense down for Shady to break some ankles??

is the O line Really that bad gets a no confidence vote? and Brian feels only hope is to pass ? and the rest of the NFL already knows that ?

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, I don't know, Drunken Goat.   From the look pre-snap, this really should be a straightforward hat-on-hat play.  I can't imagine a DC would bank on a team leaving two LB free to charge up the middle at the QB.  If that's the result of study and scheming, we're really hosed.

 

 

I don't want to seem like a "Mr. Argue", but based on what we've seen so far with Allen and the Bills offense, going back to the Panthers game, combined with the lack of talent/cohesion across the line, these type of blitzes are exactly what I expect to see from time to time. Maybe not often, but depending on the scenario. Kind of like a trick play on offense. It's a risk that DCs can afford to take against rookie QBs, especially when you're up 3 TDs while shutting them out...just trying to put myself in that situation and understand the mentality there.

 

I don't mean to sound condescending if I do, and if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. Obviously the DC schemes for this, but so should the opponent. There's a lot of blame to go around here, and you cannot simply point to one thing (although the vocal crowd will quickly point to Castillo and Castillo only). 

 

Mike Pettine is a deciple of Rex Ryan. Say what you will about Rex, but he has a really good track record of making rookie QBs look like rookie QBs. Part of the reason is disguising blitzes, and part of it is blitzing often. The Packers did that against Allen, as they should have. The Bills have a weak/ non-cohesive offensive line, and a bottom 5 WR group, ON TOP OF a rookie QB in his 3rd start. 

 

***As I'm typing this, I have the game on, but paying very little attention at this point (I was originally looking for the play at the end of the 2nd that's being disussed, but it was the wrong play at the time given). I put a pause to my typing because I hear Ian Eagle in the background say that Pettine is in his 1st year as DC of the Packers, part of the Rex Ryan head coaching tree (but mistakenly says that, followed by "in Buffalo"). So since I literally just typed the same comment right before Eagle says the same, I look up and see this play: There's 13 seconds left in the 3rd. 3rd and 3 just short of the Bills 45. The Packers do a good job of disguising their blitz, and a DB runs free to make the sack (pics coming soon) ***EDIT: tried to upload picks, but too large for this site. I'll edit later with a YouTube clip if I can*** 

 

 

This is kind of the point I'm making. Until Allen and the Bills show that they can adjust and stop this, teams will continue to do this, especially good exotic blitzing DCs like Pettine.

 

It may look bad now, but my guess is that the Bills staff would rather Allen take his lumps and see these things now, in a "known" down year, and hopefully be better for it down the road (hopefully with better weapons and offensive line).

Edited October 6, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat
Added clip

[3rdand12]

5 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

In reference to the specific play from OP, this was more a complete head-scratcher on Millier's part than anything else, especially spacing. There's no reason he should be blocking the DE on this play. The spacing issues you are seeing are due to poor play execution. The line spacing in this formation actually looks tighter than some if not most NFL offenses.

 

Especially in pass protect, the tackles will have just the crown of their helmets in line with the center's waist to give them an extra step and cut off those angles. 

 

It looks like Miller blew his assignment here is all. Funny enough, there's OL philosophies that rely more on having space b/t the guys (maybe an arms length and a half) and execute blocking schemes that force the rushers to fill in gaps and essentially end up blocking their own guys. It's a key component to picking up blitzes as well - blocking primary rushers into the secondary rushers gaps and lanes helps keep pass protect when facing blitzes.

nice post you nailed some nice points

[ctk232]

4 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

I don't want to seem like a "Mr. Argue", but based on what we've seen so far with Allen and the Bills offense, going back to the Panthers game, combined with the lack of talent/cohesion across the line, these type of blitzes are exactly what I expect to see from time to time. Mayne not often, but depending on the scenario. Kind of like a trick play on offense. It's a risk that DCs can afford to take against rookie QBs, especially when you're up 3 TDs while shutting them out...just trying to put myself in that situation and understand the mentality there.

 

I don't mean to sound condescending if I do, and if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. Obviously the DC schemes for this, but so should the opponent. There's a lot of blame to go around here, and you cannot simply point to one thing (although the vocal crowd will quickly point to Castillo and Castillo only). 

 

Mike Pettine is a deciple of Rex Ryan. Say what you will about Rex, but he has a really good track record of making rookie QBs look like rookie QBs. Part of the reason is disguising blitzes, and part of it is blitzing often. The Packers did that against Allen, as they should have. The Bills have a weak/ non-cohesive offensive line, and a bottom 5 WR group, ON TOP OF a rookie QB in his 3rd start. 

 

***As I'm typing this, I have the game on, but paying very little attention at this point (I was originally looking for the play at the end of the 2nd that's being disussed, but it was the wrong play at the time given). I put a pause to my typing because I hear Ian Eagle in the background say that Pettine is in his 1st year as DC of the Packers, part of the Rex Ryan head coaching tree (but mistakenly says that, followed by "in Buffalo"). So since I literally just typed the same comment right before Eagle says the same, I look up and see this play: There's 13 seconds left in the 3rd. 3rd and 3 just short of the Bills 45. The Packers do a good job of disguising their blitz, and a DB runs free to make the sack (pics coming soon). This is kind of the point I'm making. Until Allen and the Bills show that they can adjust and stop this, teams will continue to do this, especially good exotic blitzing DCs like Pettine.

 

It may look bad now, but my guess is that the Bills staff would rather Allen take his lumps and see these things now, in a "known" down year, and hopefully be better for it down the road (hopefully with better weapons and offensive line).

Both LBs were likely supposed to rush on this play since the DE (#93) was responsible for the TE. Don't think they were supposed to both go up the same gap, but given that you could evacuate the entire west coast in the event of an earthquake through the A gap that Miller left, I can't argue with them both just walking right through there.

 

You can credit Pettine to a point here, and while I wholly agree with your analysis of Pettine as a DC and the Rex school, the line play we are seeing is more a direct result of Castillo AND Daboll. But Castillo has done little to prepare these guys to play positions he literally knows nothing about. It's not completely on them - Miller has regressed since entering the league, and Ducasse should be in retirement by now, but our OL and OC haven't done much to fix these issues thus far.

[Happy]

To me this just further indicates that McD knows little about offensive coaching and coach selections.  If the offense doesn't start to look more competent, McD should be forced to make some difficult decisions regardless if the coach was just hired, or is a long time colleague and personal friend.  Further, if I'm the Pegulas, I'd seriously consider hiring an outside third party who can identify better OC and position coordinator candidates since McD is batting .000 choosing his own offensive coaches.  Castillo was the first coach he hired, at least on the offensive side of the ball.  Give Daboll a couple more weeks to get things corrected; but if he can't, or the O line is still showing the same type of performance it did against GB, the Monday after the Nov 11 Jets game is probably a good time to make some needed changes.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Happy Gilmore

[Gugny]

18 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Gug,

you may be right but you may be wrong. a little anyways.
I feel that the Brina hire was actually because his flexibility. working with so many different ones in some capacity over the years. I think his knowledge is deep.
 giving him a pass as he just came from College ranks and was focused and those processes.
 

 But yes it has not looked smart fro the most part so far.

 And i agree , the run game need to be setting up the pass. It is criminal with Ivory and Dimarco available to grind yards and wear a defense down for Shady to break some ankles??

is the O line Really that bad gets a no confidence vote? and Brian feels only hope is to pass ? and the rest of the NFL already knows that ?

 

Bills RBs are averaging over 4 YPC.  There is no excuse to not run the ball.

 

And yes, my friend ... I could absolutely (and hopefully) be wrong.  I've just been scratching my head A LOT throughout this young season.

[3rdand12]

8 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

To me this just further indicates that McD knows little about offensive coaching and coach selections.  If the offense doesn't start to look more competent, McD should be forced to make some difficult decisions regardless if the coach was just hired, or is a long time colleague and personal friend.  Further, if I'm the Pegulas, I'd seriously consider hiring an outside third party who can identify better OC and position coordinator candidates since McD is batting .000 choosing his own offensive coaches.  Castillo was the first coach he hired, at least on the offensive side of the ball.  Give Daboll a couple more weeks to get things corrected; but if he can't, or the O line is still showing the same type of performance it did against GB, the Monday after the Nov 11 Jets game is probably a good time to make some needed changes.

any thoughts on his replacement ?

 

btw i think they are committed for the season to Daboll . just a gut feeling though

[BobbyC81]

If the O-Line is incompetent as a 5-man unit, maybe they should use more bodies.  I was watching one game last week (Baltimore vs Pitts?) where they showed a replay that the offense added a 6 th lineman plus a TE to pass block.  The QB had all day to throw.  They didn't even form a traditional pocket.  It was like an impenetrable wall.

 

Again, why do the Bills continue to run 4 wideouts on 3rd downs when the 5 man line doesn't give the QB enough time to find them?  How about DiMarco in the backfield as additional protection?  Allen should begin to recognize defenses more with experience so give him some more help until he can.