NYC politician wants Bills+Giants to adopt Jets Anthem policy

[tumaro02]

3 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

If I disagree with you am I less than patriotic?

 

Should I become miffed at the Pegulas if they do as you wish?

 

Should I be as narrow minded and self important as you appear to be? 

When your argument is weak you turn to name  calling as usual. Not at all. If you place team loyalty ahead of patriotism that is fine. Do your thing. I place patriotism ahead of team loyalty and that informs my decisions. I will also say that many days when my son was under fire in Afghanistan and clearing villages of the Taliban and hearing one false report that he was wounded so Colin could disrespect that also informs my decisions. The constant worry a father has when his son is under fire tends to affect what my priorities are. I sense you have done nothing in your life to earn the right to disrespect those who have fought your battles so you can respond in  this fashion.

[Cripple Creek]

14 minutes ago, tumaro02 said:

When your argument is weak you turn to name  calling as usual. Not at all. If you place team loyalty ahead of patriotism that is fine. Do your thing. I place patriotism ahead of team loyalty and that informs my decisions. I will also say that many days when my son was under fire in Afghanistan and clearing villages of the Taliban and hearing one false report that he was wounded so Colin could disrespect that also informs my decisions. The constant worry a father has when his son is under fire tends to affect what my priorities are. I sense you have done nothing in your life to earn the right to disrespect those who have fought your battles so you can respond in  this fashion.

So, I am less a patriot than you are?

 

I called no names.

 

You answered no questions.

[Beast]

26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The strangest thing about this is that people honestly believe that it wasn’t effective or he should have picked a different stage. Kaep used the time when the most eyeballs were on him to bring attention to his cause. Whether you like it or not, it had a massive impact. He has gotten a ton of publicity for his cause and raised a lot of money. He put his cause before his own personal gain. Again, like it or not, Kaep’s protest has had a massive impact.

 

What “massive” impact are you speaking of?

 

What has changed?

 

What came from Kaepernick wearing pig socks? 

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The strangest thing about this is that people honestly believe that it wasn’t effective or he should have picked a different stage. Kaep used the time when the most eyeballs were on him to bring attention to his cause. Whether you like it or not, it had a massive impact. He has gotten a ton of publicity for his cause and raised a lot of money. He put his cause before his own personal gain. Again, like it or not, Kaep’s protest has had a massive impact.

 

 

Two things:

 

1). The massive impact that "his cause" is not whatever he intended---it's only identifiable result has been a discussion of "disrespecting the flag", etc...and to bring the NFL in for more (self inflicted) flagellation.   Ironically, as a result of Kaep's protest, the discussion has NOT been about police brutality or discrimination in American society.  It has become about politics.  One could easily argue that Kaep and his weekend warrior colleagues have completely derailed the national discussion they were purportedly trying to promote.

 

2). I would be more impressed with "his" cause if he didn't wait until preseason 2016 to come along as an instrument of social justice:

 

After Trayvon Martin was killed in 2012, Kaep did not sit or kneel ( he would lead them through the playoffs to the SB later that year). 

 

In 2014, after Eric Garner was choked out by the NYPD, and after Michael Brown's death in Ferguson set off massive national rallies, and after Tamir Rice was killed by cops in Ohio, still  Kaep did not sit or kneel.  Instead he was again leading his team to the NFCC game.

 

In 2015, after Freddy Gray died in the back of a police vehicle, and Anton Sterling was shot 5 times at close range, Kaep did not sit or kneel--he was starting QB for the 49ers again....until he lost his job to Blaine Gabbert by week 9. 

 

In 2016, when it seemed apparent to Kaep that new HC Chip Kelly was going to go with Gabbert as the season starter....NOW we saw Kaep kneeling for social justice.

 

 

My take, given Kaep's very late entry into the national conversation on race in America, is that he is a bit of a phony.  When all of these seismic events were casing their maximal upheaval, he said nothing---because he was a rising NFL superstar who did not want to jeopardize his reputation or career---and I certainly do not fault him for that.  Most would make the same calculation.  Only when his career was in freefall did he decide to bring attention to himself (you can't say he was bringing attention to an issue that had already dominated national discussion for 4 years before he become so "woke"). 

 

It was self-serving and it backfired.

[tumaro02]

10 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

So, I am less a patriot than you are?

 

I called no names.

 

You answered no questions. 

 If you are a patriot you are a patriot. I am happy you are a patriot as I am. It is a matter of priorities. I fall on the side of  the fan base that places patriotism over team loyalty. You must be on the other side. More power to you. We are both fans, we are both patriots. but you called me  "narrowminded" and "self important" which by every definition is name calling and unnecessary.

[Kirby Jackson]

16 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said:

 

What “massive” impact are you speaking of?

 

What has changed?

 

What came from Kaepernick wearing pig socks? 

The NFL has given like $80M to it. We are talking about it on a Buffalo Bills message board. The president got involved. The media has been talking about it for 2 years. Do you really not see that?

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The NFL has given like $80M to it. We are talking about it on a Buffalo Bills message board. The president got involved. The media has been talking about it for 2 years. Do you really not see that?

 

It's a pop culture impact.  The NFL is the league everyone loves to hate, so it's every drama is big news.  All for entertainment.  If this was the NHL---zero "impact", such as it is.

 

As I said in my last post--none of this is moving the needle on the discussion of the treatment of black men and women in this country--it's only about the players vs the owners (black millionaires vs white billionaires).  People are using it to spout their own political beliefs on one side or the other.  No one is talking about ploice brutality, etc, as a result of the kneeling protest.

 

It's all theater.  Everyone is playing their parts for our entertainment.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Mr. WEO

[Hapless Bills Fan]

53 minutes ago, tumaro02 said:

Thanks for your lecture. Let’s be clear. I have no doubt that the players may have a legal right to kneel.

 

When Colin Kaepernick did his thing in 2016 the owners could have quietly called Colin in and told him, “Hey, you are an employee of the San Francisco 49ers. We applaud your passion about your cause. But, you cannot promote your agenda by calling attention to yourself during a time of reverence that has been set aside for decades for our national anthem and flag wearing the corporate uniform and representing the San Francisco 49ers.

 

We appreciate you however, and will find an appropriate venue for your protest. Do you know Colin that there are tens of thousands of fans here and across the US who view your protest as being disrespectful to our national anthem and flag? Is it fair for you to disrespect them to promote your personal agenda? Are you aware of the financial burden you could create when fans who have supported you and the team for decades stop supporting you and the team by cancelling their premium TV subscriptions and stop buying team apparel and sponsored products and stop coming to games? Many view your protest as being disrespectful to the men and women who have shed their blood to earn and defend your freedom to protest? Do you know many in attendance have served or have sons and daughters right now in harms way who view your actions as disrespectful to their sacrifices?

 

The 49ers obviously did not do that. The NFL obviously did not do that. The Buffalo Bills obviously did not do that with their players. Colin was either not reflective of what his actions might cause or worse just didn’t give a damn. When the 49ers came to Buffalo in 2016 there was raucous boos when he entered the stadium. When he knelt, almost the entire stadium erupted in chants of USA USA USA!

 

Did our Terry and Kim not hear that? Did our players not hear that? Did they not hear the stand taken for patriotism? Were they deaf? Was Sean McDermott not informed of patriotic fan base? Surely they heard or chose not to hear what might happen to many thousands of Bills fans whose love of the team was now superseded by their disgust for this spectacle and the owners not dealing with it months before. I love Terry and Kim but thought ridiculous their argument that the NFL was “under attack” by President Trump and those disgusted with the league’s non action. NO, Terry and Kim YOU WERE DEAF to a large percentage of your fan base. Deaf to the demographics of Buffalo. Just plain DEAF and it cost you in your pocketbooks.

 

Did our players not hear the chant? Did they not know that many loyal Bills fans would give up their loyalty in disgust? Did they care? Were they as respectful to their fans as their fans have been to them? Of course not. They chose to call attention to themselves. They chose to end a decades old time of reverence for the national anthem. They went from heroes to millionaire self-serving chumps to many including myself. I did give up my Sunday Ticket. I did refuse to watch their games. I refused to buy any more Bills apparel.

 

I am a diehard Bills fan since the days of Jack Kemp, Cookie Gilcrist and the “The Rockpile”. I have cheered my organization through the rough times to the present. Hundreds of Bills players have been my heroes. I have sung the “Shout” song hundreds of times.

 

This is a new season. I am back. It is my hope that the lunkheaded millionaire owners have finally discovered what might happen when they callously allow disrespect for their patriotic paying fans.  Perhaps they have all bought hearing aids to help them hear. Perhaps their low TV ratings were a result of deafness. Perhaps Terry and Kim have learned a valuable lesson when they allow their passionate fan base to be disrespected. In any event, I am back. I bought season tickets again. I bought a Josh Allen jersey. I am hoping to spend a long season as a diehard fan again. But, make no mistake, if the Pegulas or the NFL, or Buffalo Bills players are still intent on disrespecting that part of their fan base who place patriotism, and honor ahead of their loyalty to the team, I will surely walk again, get rid of my tickets, burn my Josh Allen jersey and say to myself, “Get me once, shame on you, get me twice, shame on me.”

 

I think this is a great post - thoughtful and well-expressed.  Kudos. 

 

The only caveat I have is to make the point, we don't know what the SF49ers owners did.  They may in fact have called Colin Kaepernick in privately and said pretty much what you suggest, and he may have said "I've had other suggestions about how to show respect, I will now kneel instead as kneeling is an act traditionally symbolic of respect, but otherwise I disagree with you 1) that this is my personal agenda 2) that if I kneel, it's disrespectful"  Then what?  The owners could have had Kaepernick dragged off the field when he knelt?  Suspended him?  Not a good look either way.  They released him.

 

In fact I disagree with you on both the above points, but what I think is the cool thing here is we've both had a chance to state our views in a reasonably respectful way, and I feel that I understand your viewpoint a bit better (the "thanks for the lecture" snark suggests it may not be mutual, but "that is what it is").

The one thing I'll add is I'd like to see data.  I believe the NFL is a very bottom-line driven league, and it would shock me if somewhere on a secure computer there isn't some professionally done and statistically analyzed representative survey of fans for all 32 teams delving into the point of just what percent of the fan base is being alienated, what percent is supportive, and what percent is neutral enough that it doesn't influence their ticket-buying, game-watching behavior at all. 

 

It might support your contention that a large percentage of the Buffalo Bills fan base is alienated.  Or it might not - being willing to pick up a USA USA chant your neighbors in the stadium are chanting and changing your game-attending ticket-purchasing game-watching behavior may or may not be the same.

 

 

[keepthefaith]

6 hours ago, Andrew in CA said:

 

And my question is why.  Why has it been a tradition for decades? It's pointless. It's an embarrassment and if you think it actually supports and revers this great nation you are mistaken.  Hundreds of dopes are puking, or chugging beers, or fighting each other during the anthem.  Because of the routine nature of it, the anthem has become a school bell to tell fans to get to their seats before the game starts.  Honoring the country is so attenuated from the song that they might as well play the power rangers/ninja turtles/he-man song.  

 

You say that "a significant majority of fans prefer that it's done" -- where is your support for that?  Show me your basis for that, please. I'd love to be wrong on this.  

 

The anthem has become so attenuated from true patriotism because of its routine playing at every sporting event that it has become meaningless.  If it is ever going to be meaningful again, the powers that be better parse it out so that when folks hear it, they don't automatically think kickoff/puck drop/tip off/first pitch is 60 seconds away.  If anything, the routine nature has diminished whatever power that song had.  And it's a damn shame.

 

Yes hundreds of dopes out of 10's of thousands.  You've made my point. 

[K-9]

Regarding the notion that standing = patriotism, members of white supremecist groups stand and salute our flag at their rallies. Should we consider them “patriots” as well? 

[keepthefaith]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

Is this meant as a criticism of Kaep? Because if it’s true, it makes him look entirely admirable: Siunds like he sacrificed personal goals and wealth to bring attention to a cause he passionately believes in, without harming anyone.  And, as you say, he got the league to donate millions to the cause.

 

Just calling balls and strikes. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Why is that pro Trump statements get warnings from the mods but anti Trump statements do not.  A legitimate response would be appreciated.

This topic should not be here.  It is too political and going to get heated.

 

Speaking as a mod, I can tell you that mods try to be fair and balanced and give warnings both ways and I have the PMs calling me all kinds of names to prove it (not to be interpreted as a good idea, folks - because *sarcasm* everyone always comes around to your viewpoint better if you toss a few gratuitous insults at them amIrite?)

 

Mods also try to moderate according to guidelines laid down by SDS.  SDS has explicitly said that he feels politics in the context of football-related issues such as the NFL's National Anthem policy or using public money to build stadiums etc. was in-bounds for The Stadium Wall.  So that is what we try to enable - for discussion to take place without broadening to general political discussion (that could take place on 10,000 boards) or descending to outright name calling.

I will say that the previous, locked thread on this issue involved something like a dozen cautioning PMs, 3 warnings, and a handful of deleted posts before I locked it.  So far the general tone of discussion here has been much more respectful which, is cool actually, so everyone on both sides, Thank you.

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's a pop culture impact.  The NFL is the league everyone loves to hate, so it's every drama is big news.  All for entertainment.  If this was the NHL---zero "impact", such as it is.

 

As I said in my last post--none of this is moving the needle on the discussion of the treatment of black men and women in this country--it's only about the players vs the owners (black millionaires vs white billionaires).  People are using it to spout their own political beliefs on one side or the other.  No one is talking about ploice brutality, etc, as a result of the kneeling protest.

 

It's all theater.  Everyone is playing their parts for our entertainment.

We just don’t agree on the “moving the needle” part. I don’t even disagree that it was grandstanding. With that being said, even if it got political, the conversation has taken place. I agree that the conversation primarily became about the anthem but his grievances are attached to that. It isn’t “no one talking about police brutality.” It is less than the kneeling but it is there. Even if 90% of the conversation is about the flag and 10% about race relations that 10% is 10% more than would have been there without kneeling. It has led to a ton of exposure and money. 

[Cripple Creek]

20 minutes ago, tumaro02 said:

 If you are a patriot you are a patriot. I am happy you are a patriot as I am. It is a matter of priorities. I fall on the side of  the fan base that places patriotism over team loyalty. You must be on the other side. More power to you. We are both fans, we are both patriots. but you called me  "narrowminded" and "self important" which by every definition is name calling and unnecessary.

I don't understand why someone who has been a fan of a team that is rife with bad decisions over the course of its existence would pick this non-football decision as the reason to bail. That's just me though.

 

The NFL is going to fine teams if players demonstrate on the field/sidelines.  What do the Pegula's have to do to satisfy you if a Bill disregards the league's new rule?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 6/2/2018 at 10:25 AM, BillsfaninSB said:

That’s ridiculous.  You don’t get to do what you want when you lease anything.  Do you get to add a second story when you lease a house?  Do you get to enter a demolition derby when you lease a car?

 

Well, no, but the terms of your lease typically set out what you can or can't do and what the penalties are for breaking the terms. 

 

If you are a business leasing a property, the terms of your lease typically give you sole authority over access to the site (reserving the site owner's right to access and inspect) and both authority over and liability for employee and contractor behavior on-site.  So in the case of a Stadium lease, I would expect that the team's right to regulate and direct employees (specifically players) behavior while on the premises and so forth would be set out pretty clearly. 

[tumaro02]

21 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I don't understand why someone who has been a fan of a team that is rife with bad decisions over the course of its existence would pick this non-football decision as the reason to bail. That's just me though.

 

The NFL is going to fine teams if players demonstrate on the field/sidelines.  What do the Pegula's have to do to satisfy you if a Bill disregards the league's new rule? 

I have never in my Bills life of 50 years been put in this predicament. I am a diehard fan. I have no problems with Colin's passion. My problem is with the "brilliant" owners not nipping this in the bud and then allowing it to fester. Disrespecting the fan base by the very players who the fan base supports to me is incredibly callous especially when done during a time honored pregame ritual. I hope I am not going to regret paying several thousands for seasons tix this year but we will see. I will wait to see how this plays out. I expect there to be fines and I hope they will be incrementally severe because if  they are not it will be a joke. I truly believe this will be over by  Week 4 and I will stay. If all hell breaks loose and there is  mass protests by the Bills players (I don't really care as much what happens in San Fran or elsewhere) it will cost me a lot of money because I won't respect a team or players that doesn't respect me, my Bills passion or my dollars.

[Cripple Creek]

12 minutes ago, tumaro02 said:

I have never in my Bills life of 50 years been put in this predicament. I am a diehard fan. I have no problems with Colin's passion. My problem is with the "brilliant" owners not nipping this in the bud and then allowing it to fester. Disrespecting the fan base by the very players who the fan base supports to me is incredibly callous especially when done during a time honored pregame ritual. I hope I am not going to regret paying several thousands for seasons tix this year but we will see. I will wait to see how this plays out. I expect there to be fines and I hope they will be incrementally severe because if  they are not it will be a joke. I truly believe this will be over by  Week 4 and I will stay. If all hell breaks loose and there is  mass protests by the Bills players (I don't really care as much what happens in San Fran or elsewhere) it will cost me a lot of money because I won't respect a team or players that doesn't respect me, my Bills passion or my dollars.

While, as I’ve said, I don’t “understand” the jump you and others are prepared to make, I do applause your passion for a cause.

[K-9]

27 minutes ago, tumaro02 said:

I have never in my Bills life of 50 years been put in this predicament. I am a diehard fan. I have no problems with Colin's passion. My problem is with the "brilliant" owners not nipping this in the bud and then allowing it to fester. Disrespecting the fan base by the very players who the fan base supports to me is incredibly callous especially when done during a time honored pregame ritual. I hope I am not going to regret paying several thousands for seasons tix this year but we will see. I will wait to see how this plays out. I expect there to be fines and I hope they will be incrementally severe because if  they are not it will be a joke. I truly believe this will be over by  Week 4 and I will stay. If all hell breaks loose and there is  mass protests by the Bills players (I don't really care as much what happens in San Fran or elsewhere) it will cost me a lot of money because I won't respect a team or players that doesn't respect me, my Bills passion or my dollars.

I can appreciate the owners being worried about the perception of disrespecting the fan base, but they walk a fine line because I can also appreciate them not wanting to offend a large percentage of their employees as well by not respecting their concerns over the issues at the center of their protest. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

We just don’t agree on the “moving the needle” part. I don’t even disagree that it was grandstanding. With that being said, even if it got political, the conversation has taken place. I agree that the conversation primarily became about the anthem but his grievances are attached to that. It isn’t “no one talking about police brutality.” It is less than the kneeling but it is there. Even if 90% of the conversation is about the flag and 10% about race relations that 10% is 10% more than would have been there without kneeling. It has led to a ton of exposure and money. 

It's the same 10% of people talking about who were already talking about it.

 

Nobody saw Colin Kaep kneel and said "hey maybe black people are mistreated sometimes in this country."  Effectively zero.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...if the NFL as Standard Operating Procedure chooses to play the national anthem and requires EMPLOYEES of the NFL to stand, where are they wrong?.......