Bleeding Bills Blue Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, FearLess Price said: They needed it there. Momentum is huge and turning it over or punting would have shifted it in the pats favor. He took all the right risks and they payed off. Right, momentum. i just look at it like 5 minutes left and you're losing by 1. Give Brady the ball at your 40, or give it to him at his 20. You haven't stopped them ALL game - and you expect to stop him there? Up 5 with 2 minutes left at least you know that they are passing, and that they are likely going to keep stuff to the sidelines more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said: Disagree John. Too many examples, Foles, Goff, Keenum etc who are deemed to be bums and then get with the right, aggressive offensive minded coach and blossom. I think it's dramatic the difference a coach makes in this league, and being aggressive in scheme, playcalling, and game day decisions and willing to use numbers,data and win percentages etc to your advantage will always have an edge over old-school coaches like Marrone and McD. I respectfully but strenuously disagree with you and the eball post. Goff is a talent and is going to get better so I'm not going to put him in the Foles and Keenum camp. Foles and Keenum are not elite qbs but they are decent qbs who had good years. Were they handled smartly by their respective coaches? Absolutely. But what both could do is have an ability to execute a pro offense. That is something that Taylor can't do, and to this point what Bortles can't do. Don't misjudge what I am saying. Pederson and Zimmer and their respective staffs did a terrific job in maximizing the talents they had to work with. That we can agree on. But unless you have a qb that is capable of executing the designed game plan then the plan means little. My point is simple and basic: When your qb is limited then it makes sense to simply your offense. When your qb has the ability to make plays then it is smart to expand the game plan that includes some creativity added to the mix. As I stated in my response to eball go back to the Jacksonville game. The qbing on both sides was disgustingly wretched. Having them execute expanded game plans would not have been very prudent. When a person can't do arithmetic don't expect that person to handle advanced physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, MarlinTheMagician said: If the 4th down had failed at the 40 he would have been crucified. That is what made the call so great - coach knew that, but did it anyhow. The safe "they did a nice job getting there with a back-up" reputation-assuring thing to do at your 40 is punt. However, that, IMHO, would have been the reckless move. I believe it would have sealed the Eagles fate. Eagles D was gassed and showed no sign of being able to slow, much less stop, Brady. It was a tremendously courageous game-winning decision that cannot be diminished. He would have been crucified if it failed, but it still would have been the right move. Tip of my cap to the man, so impressive. Their only stop was when brady just missed catching a first down pass on a trick play. Can't punt there when you haven't stopped them all game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, JohnC said: I respectfully but strenuously disagree with you and the eball post. Goff is a talent and is going to get better so I'm not going to put him in the Foles and Keenum camp. Foles and Keenum are not elite qbs but they are decent qbs who had good years. Were they handled smartly by their respective coaches? Absolutely. But what both could do is have an ability to execute a pro offense. That is something that Taylor can't do, and to this point what Bortles can't do. Don't misjudge what I am saying. Pederson and Zimmer and their respective staffs did a terrific job in maximizing the talents they had to work with. That we can agree on. But unless you have a qb that is capable of executing the designed game plan then the plan means little. My point is simple and basic: When your qb is limited then it makes sense to simply your offense. When your qb has the ability to make plays then it is smart to expand the game plan that includes some creativity added to the mix. As I stated in my response to eball go back to the Jacksonville game. The qbing on both sides was disgustingly wretched. Having them execute expanded game plans would not have been very prudent. When a person can't do arithmetic don't expect that person to handle advanced physics. But Bortles had a great game against the Pats when they were more aggressive. But forget the QBs for a minute, I think going forward the old time adages of the NFL that people are married to are just going to change, and coaches that understand that and embrace the will continue to win, and coaches who refuse to believe the game has changed from even 10 years ago will continue to be mired in mediocrity.They will win some games, maybe even some playoffs games, but will never have sustained high level success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: But Bortles had a great game against the Pats when they were more aggressive. But forget the QBs for a minute, I think going forward the old time adages of the NFL that people are married to are just going to change, and coaches that understand that and embrace the will continue to win, and coaches who refuse to believe the game has changed from even 10 years ago will continue to be mired in mediocrity.They will win some games, maybe even some playoffs games, but will never have sustained high level success. I don't disagree with anything you have said. If you are a troglodyte coach you are going to fall by the wayside. Coaches who are wedded to their systems, such as the boisterous Rex, are going to be bypassed by those who are adaptable and flexible. Take the Pats and coach Billy. Their game plans change week to week. Their strategy is to take away what you do best and force you to do what you don't do best. If you go through their roster they don't have the most talent but collectively they have the smartest talent. Their record in a system designed for parity over the past generation has been extraordinary. As you wisely noted what sets them apart is having the ability to change and adapt. On that issue we can agree on. Edited February 5, 2018 by JohnC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLess Price Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, dneveu said: i just look at it like 5 minutes left and you're losing by 1. Give Brady the ball at your 40, or give it to him at his 20. You haven't stopped them ALL game - and you expect to stop him there? Up 5 with 2 minutes left at least you know that they are passing, and that they are likely going to keep stuff to the sidelines more. Thats right. The aggressive calls are the reason why they won on the scoreboard. Turn some of those TDs in 3s and the Eagles arent winning that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, FearLess Price said: Thats right. The aggressive calls are the reason why they won on the scoreboard. Turn some of those TDs in 3s and the Eagles arent winning that game. There's also times where being conservative can win. If you're ahead say - 3... I'd consider punting. Teams often get caught playing for the 3, and you might end up with enough time left to steal one with a FG at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLess Price Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, dneveu said: There's also times where being conservative can win. If you're ahead say - 3... I'd consider punting. Teams often get caught playing for the 3, and you might end up with enough time left to steal one with a FG at the end. It really depends on how the team is built and whos calling the plays. Bills might play conservative because we dont have the roster to win an offensive shootout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st pete gogolak Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 If one point of this thread is that McDermott is way too conservative to be a coach who wins a Super Bowl (closer to Marrone than Peterson), yeah, I agree 100%. Punting in overtime against the Colts when a tie puts you out of playoff contention? You've got to be kidding. My son and I attended the Jaguars game. I started walking out when we punted on fourth down with a couple of minutes left in the game. Can a coach change from ultra-conservative to something less than that? I sure as hell hope so. How about this? Next preseason, don't punt on 4th and 1 from the opponent's 40 yard line. Maybe don't even punt at all. Be hyper-aggressive and see how it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said: If one point of this thread is that McDermott is way too conservative to be a coach who wins a Super Bowl (closer to Marrone than Peterson), yeah, I agree 100%. Punting in overtime against the Colts when a tie puts you out of playoff contention? You've got to be kidding. My son and I attended the Jaguars game. I started walking out when we punted on fourth down with a couple of minutes left in the game. Can a coach change from ultra-conservative to something less than that? I sure as hell hope so. How about this? Next preseason, don't punt on 4th and 1 from the opponent's 40 yard line. Maybe don't even punt at all. Be hyper-aggressive and see how it works out. You realize how craptacular the Bills offense was this year right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuklz2594 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 chance favors a prepared mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnC said: I respectfully differ. If you watched the game you missed what was the reason for success for both teams, the play of the qbs. How can you criticize Marrone for squeezing out the most that he could for the team he presides over when his qb so far has played at less than a mediocre level. The same scenario played out in Buffalo when he squeezed out the most that could on an average team with at best mediocre qb play. There is nothing wrong with being aggressive when you have a qb that can execute an aggressive play call. There is something wrong when you make an aggressive call when you have a qb that can't execute an aggressive play. He didn't have that adequate caliber of qbing in Buffalo and he still doesn't have it in Jacksonville. Didn't you watch the Jacksonville/Buffalo game? From a qb standpoint it was one of the worst qbing that I have ever witnessed for a playoff game. It was wretched and it was embarrassing. If the HCs on either of the sidelines would have called a loose and wide open game they should be fired for malpractice. The basic job for the HC is to utilize the talent he has on hand to its abilities. When your qb is limited to the point of being incapable of running a pro offense what do you expect from the coach? Magic? The smartest approach under those crimped circumstances is to simply/dumb down the game plan and play it safe to manage the reality of your qb situation. The solution to your criticism of the coach is not to criticize the coach for properly adapting to his situation but for the organization to be aggressive in going out and finding a better option at qb. Until that is done it's futile. John, I know you like Marrone but if you can't see the distinct differences in game awareness and situational play-calling evidenced by how both Marrone and Pederson approached playing the Pats*** I don't know what to tell you. What happened to Marrone in the 4th quarter after the Jags controlled the first 75% of the game? The reason Pederson could call those plays is because he has been doing it all year so the players aren't surprised by it. It's about mentality, not who is playing QB. We can only pray McDermott is able to become more like Pederson and less like Marrone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 hours ago, eball said: Wow, this game really highlighted why Doug Pedersen has got a hell of a future as a HC (and should set an example for all coaches to follow) and why Doug Marrone, despite his strengths, is likely doomed to mediocrity. Pedersen coached to win; he was aggressive but not reckless and exhibited keen insight into what was happening in the game. I really hope our coaching staff -- primarily McD and Daboll -- took note and we see Buffalo play with that sort of mindset going forward. Compare and contrast how Doug Marrone's team completely tightened up in the 4th quarter of the AFC championship game. I think Marrone will always have a team that is disciplined, tough, and in a position to compete, but at least at this point in his career Marrone doesn't have either the confidence or the situational awareness necessary to take the next step. Eagles fans have to be feeling great not only about the SB win, but about who they have leading the organization for many years to come. Meh. I love aggressive football but this victory was about a coach having the right feel for playing it aggressive against this particularly powerful opponent that his DC had no answers for and then the players actually executing. Great situational coaching. The more impressive coaching aspect was he and Reich having the balls to go to more college-style offense to get Foles going in the playoffs. Putting players in position to succeed is job #1. Chip Kelly deserves an assist for the victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Meh. I love aggressive football but this victory was about a coach having the right feel for playing it aggressive against this particularly powerful opponent that his DC had no answers for and then the players actually executing. Great situational coaching. The more impressive coaching aspect was he and Reich having the balls to go to more college-style offense to get Foles going in the playoffs. Putting players in position to succeed is job #1. Chip Kelly deserves an assist for the victory. Isn't that what I said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 hours ago, eball said: Wow, this game really highlighted why Doug Pederson has got a hell of a future as a HC (and should set an example for all coaches to follow) and why Doug Marrone, despite his strengths, is likely doomed to mediocrity. Pederson coached to win; he was aggressive but not reckless and exhibited keen insight into what was happening in the game. I really hope our coaching staff -- primarily McD and Daboll -- took note and we see Buffalo play with that sort of mindset going forward. Compare and contrast how Doug Marrone's team completely tightened up in the 4th quarter of the AFC championship game. I think Marrone will always have a team that is disciplined, tough, and in a position to compete, but at least at this point in his career Marrone doesn't have either the confidence or the situational awareness necessary to take the next step. Eagles fans have to be feeling great not only about the SB win, but about who they have leading the organization for many years to come. One of the most telling quotes to me was Frank Reich saying "Doug loves ideas. He doesn't care who they come from" (I think in the SI article about the trick play). That is describing a true visionary leader. He's willing to listen to any suggestion and assess it on its merits. In contrast, I have the impression that Doug Marrone is a very hierarchical guy. I have the impression it makes a difference to St. Doug if the idea comes from Bill Polian or the Offensive QC Assistant. Didn't someone say Hackett drew up all these creative, innovative plays every week and Marrone wouldn't run them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 15 minutes ago, eball said: Isn't that what I said? No I think as you tend to do you jump to a far too broad generalization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st pete gogolak Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 hour ago, joesixpack said: You realize how craptacular the Bills offense was this year right? I went to two Bills games this year. Carolina and Jacksonville. Total offensive output: zero touchdowns, two field goals, six points. Yeah, I have a general understanding of the craptactularness of our offense. Part of the craptacularness, however, is to change the mentality. In the modern NFL, you just can't afford to play scared of losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungmack Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) Do you think the Eagles approach has anything to do with the HC and the OC both being QBs, and career-long backups at that? Edited February 5, 2018 by yungmack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 32 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: I love aggressive football but this victory was about a coach having the right feel for playing it aggressively against this particularly powerful opponent that his DC had no answers for and then the players actually executing. Great situational coaching. 1 He has been coaching/playing this way for two years, it was not just "this particular oppoonent. Just heard Jaws on Dan Patrick saying last year he had his concerns about Pederson and his aggresiveness last year, but was proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: No I think as you tend to do you jump to a far too broad generalization. Did you have to work hard to become so douchey, or does it come naturally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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