Ryan's Defense: DL-men in Coverage

[CardinalScotts]

I wonder for some of us.. do we watch other teams ? Do you watch the playoffs how about the super bowl??

This one has been decided Mario is a selfish baby, confirmed.

[Dopey]

I think what might make it unique (and part of the problem) is that its not that OTHER teams dont do it.....its that SCHWARTZ didnt do it (very much...it just seems to me that every D does this now and then)......so then Rex Ryan comes in with is knew system and the DL is like "huh?"

 

I have come to a couple of opinions (my own of course)

 

- I have this feeling that had Schwartz stayed.....and we ran that same D as the previous year.....we would have STILL declined on D.....I dont know how far......but an offseason of looking at our D schemes by other NFL teams I think we were due for a regression. 15 spots of regression? I dont know.

 

- Does anyone notice that when we lost key players in the Schwartz D we really felt it.....for instance the Raiders game? That D was awesome.....but at times it did show the kinks in its armour

 

- Rex doesnt rely on having dominant players and no injuries at every position to work......in his system the scheme is more important then the certain player......for instance....it requires a DL to drop into short zone coverage......not player X....but a player that has short zone coverage ability. That is why defensive players that can do different things are highly valuable to a Rex Ryan defense.

 

Now....having said all that......I will be horrified if I watch Marcel D. drop into short zone coverage.....I just dont want to see that at all

I know it's the time of year to try and feel better, but did you notice when we lost key players I Rex's defense, we really felt it too?! That was one of a few excuses Rex used. Also, Rex has had the likes of Ray Lewis mo Wilkerson to name a few. He has always had dominant player to implement his d. He also had a high number of early draft picks on d w the jets and that d still struggled at the end of his tenure. To say Rex succeeded without dominant players or doesn't need dominant players is wrong imo. Marenelli(sp) in Dallas did more with less talent. Let's trade Marcell and Hughes for a couple of average Joes and see what happens. This Rex koolaid is pretty sweet today.

The argument isn't so much that RR dropped his DLmen into coverage too much, as it is he dropped two OLBs into coverage that some feel shouldn't have been used as OLBs. Sorry, but in any scheme, OLBs are going to be asked to play more pass D. Period. Feel free to get all over Ryan for using Mario and Hughes that way, that's valid. But asking his OLBs to do what they did, is perfectly reasonable within the schemes they were asked to execute.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I agree it's not so much that he asks them to drop into coverage, but it sounds like he was the wrong coach for this team at the time he was hired. Now it's too late to turn back and must find the right olbs, and an ilb. Edited June 5, 2016 by Dopey

[Dopey]

Let me tell the story of a NFL head coach who first made his name years ago when he was a DC and helped lead his team to a Super Bowl victory.

 

That victory earned him a chance to become a NFL HC and he's been labeled a "defensive guru" ever since.

 

But do the facts support the reputation?

 

4 times in the past 6 years, this supposed defensive guru's defense finished in the bottom half of the NFL!

 

Clearly the game has passed Bill Belichick by. Because a good defensive coach will get his team in the top 5 each and every year, regardless of the circumstances.

You know if you remove the term defensive coach to just coach, you may be have something here. Bill is an excellent coach overall, not just a defensive coach. If it ain't working Bill will adjust. Rex, not so much. "I need a certain type of player and we don't have that so that's why we sucked. But we're gonna beat Bill". So Rex can't adjust to what he has on the roster? And it was a hell of a defensive roster. Pretty sure Bill would have made it work a lot better than Rex did. Jmo. Edited June 5, 2016 by Dopey

[Dopey]

 

this .

 

It was Mario that was a b!tch about it, the rest of the D struggled because of last second substitutions and play calls which caught them with their pants down.

I think those issues affected Mario as well, or was he supposed to rise up above Rex's terrible efforts last season while the rest of the d gets a pass?! Wow! Just wow!

[8-8 Forever?]

The only thing better than the complete lack of football knowledge displayed in the opening post in this thread is the specious reasoning and logical leaps that follow. This is like accidental crayonz. Crayonzidental.

yep, the initial post was straight out of the nineties.... can we just see how they do with a year of experience with it and Kyle and Aaron back? All of this is what happens when you blow it all up and start over again. You get a year of suck as the new schemes sink in. Heck, with the new CBA, a team barely gets to work on a brand new system before the season starts. Stop blowing the thing up and you'll probably get results. Of course, this is the Bills we are talking about.....

Edited June 5, 2016 by 8and8-->NoMore

[Nihilarian]

Let me tell the story of a NFL head coach who first made his name years ago when he was a DC and helped lead his team to a Super Bowl victory.

 

That victory earned him a chance to become a NFL HC and he's been labeled a "defensive guru" ever since.

 

But do the facts support the reputation?

 

4 times in the past 6 years, this supposed defensive guru's defense finished in the bottom half of the NFL!

 

Clearly the game has passed Bill Belichick by. Because a good defensive coach will get his team in the top 5 each and every year, regardless of the circumstances.

Bill Belichick is a defensive genius and always will be and nobody watches as much film as this man does. He may get beaten once in a season by a team but it's rare that he gets beaten twice.

 

But as a great NFL head coach he allows his assistant coaches to do their jobs in which the teams DC sets up the defensive game plan and call the defensive plays on game day. At this point in his career, he is also the teams GM and has absolute control over the teams roster.

 

The Patriots just won the super bowl in 2014 with having the #8 team in points allowed and #13 in yards allowed and were one game away from the SB in 2015. BTW the NE Patriots were the #2 team in sacks last year just behind Denver with 49 sacks.

 

 

 

On another note as to the D-linemen dropping into pass coverage,

 

"Even former Bills quarterback Jim Kelly got in on the action, criticizing Ryan's decision to drop his linemen into coverage too often as well.

"Dropping Mario Williams into coverage a lot? Didn't we pay him a lot of money to hit the quarterback? And if I'm the opposing quarterback and I see him dropping into coverage, oh, that's a big plus. I'd definitely have a smile on my face," Kelly said, per Yahoo! Sports."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bills-defensive-linemen-not-happy-with-how-rex-ryan-is-using-them/

[John from Riverside]

I know it's the time of year to try and feel better, but did you notice when we lost key players I Rex's defense, we really felt it too?! That was one of a few excuses Rex used. Also, Rex has had the likes of Ray Lewis mo Wilkerson to name a few. He has always had dominant player to implement his d. He also had a high number of early draft picks on d w the jets and that d still struggled at the end of his tenure. To say Rex succeeded without dominant players or doesn't need dominant players is wrong imo. Marenelli(sp) in Dallas did more with less talent. Let's trade Marcell and Hughes for a couple of average Joes and see what happens. This Rex koolaid is pretty sweet today.

I agree it's not so much that he asks them to drop into coverage, but it sounds like he was the wrong coach for this team at the time he was hired. Now it's too late to turn back and must find the right olbs, and an ilb.

That was not really what I meant but I can see how it would have been taken that way.

 

I know this.....

 

- Changing HC's every 2 years does not work either

- The train has left the station.....if it takes RR having high draft picks to make his D work....then fine....give him the groceries....anything is better then a rebiuld every 2 years hoping it will be better when it really isnt.

 

This is year two of Rex Ryan....he has had an offseason to retool his D and he has done that.

[3rdand12]

 

Erik, this is very nice work!

I have been subscribed to his site for a short while.

Always enjoy his breakdowns. and he does quite a lot work for us Bills fans if interessted

Edited June 5, 2016 by 3rdand12

[hondo in seattle]

Bill Belichick is a defensive genius and always will be and nobody watches as much film as this man does. He may get beaten once in a season by a team but it's rare that he gets beaten twice.

 

But as a great NFL head coach he allows his assistant coaches to do their jobs in which the teams DC sets up the defensive game plan and call the defensive plays on game day. At this point in his career, he is also the teams GM and has absolute control over the teams roster.

 

The Patriots just won the super bowl in 2014 with having the #8 team in points allowed and #13 in yards allowed and were one game away from the SB in 2015. BTW the NE Patriots were the #2 team in sacks last year just behind Denver with 49 sacks.

 

 

 

On another note as to the D-linemen dropping into pass coverage,

 

"Even former Bills quarterback Jim Kelly got in on the action, criticizing Ryan's decision to drop his linemen into coverage too often as well.

"Dropping Mario Williams into coverage a lot? Didn't we pay him a lot of money to hit the quarterback? And if I'm the opposing quarterback and I see him dropping into coverage, oh, that's a big plus. I'd definitely have a smile on my face," Kelly said, per Yahoo! Sports."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bills-defensive-linemen-not-happy-with-how-rex-ryan-is-using-them/

 

I agree Belichick is a defensive genius. My point is that you can't entirely judge a coach by his rankings. Circumstances (roster, injuries, etc.) matter.

 

My other, related, point is that even the best coaches have ups and downs in their metrics/rankings as the circumstances fluctuate.

 

Rex has shown that he can run a great defense when circumstances are right. He's shown he can run a poor defense when they're not. So the question is: Are circumstances right for him this year?

 

Did Rex drop linemen into coverage too often last season? Maybe so. But is he a moron doomed to repeating the same mistakes year after year? Maybe not.

 

We can criticize Rex for 2015 all we want. And he deserves it. But given his history, I'm willing to wait and see if he can turn things around in 2016 before giving up on the season.

[Cover 1]

 

Erik, this is very nice work!

Thanks Hondo!!!

[What a Tuel]

Besides the Pats, name one good offensive team that his D kept us in games against?

 

Team (ppg ranking)

 

Patriots 1x (3rd)

Giants (6th)

Chiefs (9th) (edit: I could be swayed on this one)

Jets 2x (11th)

Eagles (13th)

Jaguars (14th - despite Manuel's 20 point donation)

 

In comparison the defense failed to hold the following top 15 offenses in 2015 down enough for our offense to compete:

 

Patriots 1x (3rd)

Bengals (7th)

Redskins (10th)

Edited June 6, 2016 by What a Tuel

[hondo in seattle]

For those who pine for Jim Schwartz, a few thoughts... He's worked 14 years in the NFL as a HC or DC. In half of those years, his D ranked in the bottom half of the league in yards allowed.

 

His best showing? His #4 finish with the Bills.

 

On the other hand, his defenses finished dead last in the NFL twice: in 2006 with the Titans and again in 2009 with Detroit.

 

In 2014, everything went right for Schwartz with the Bills. By dumb luck, he inherited a defensive roster that was brilliantly suited for his scheme. And the roster remained remarkably healthy. This had the obvious advantage of allowing Schwartz to field his best players every week. But there were other benefits too. The level of cohesion, and the quality of the communication, were strong because the starting 11 largely stayed together and they didn't much have to integrate back-ups and FAs signed to plug injury holes. It's not all the DC. Circumstances matter.

 

Rex's D finished 19th last year despite (1) a roster that was not terribly well-suited for his scheme, (2) key injuries, (3) Rex only having one year with the team, (4) a disgruntled star barely even trying, and (5) Rex admittedly making some schematic mistakes. I'm also wondering what prompted Rex to make some coaching changes after the 2015 season. Obviously, he thinks the staff he has now will better support his vision.

 

Can he finish top 10 this year? Top 5? Idk.

[YattaOkasan]

Thanks Hondo!!!

Im with Hondo. Great work. The only issue I have is I can't always get the GIFs to work. You posted all the plays on Youtube for one of your articles (2ndary article I think). Could you compile all the GIFs for an article as a Youtube video in case they don't work? Again great analysis and thank you.

[The Big Cat]

Can he finish top 10 this year? Top 5? Idk.

 

It blows my mind that in early June fans believe--definitively--we WILL not finish top 10 or top 5.

 

I'm sure there are some O3's who feel the opposite, but nearly enough to balance out the N3's.

[Cover 1]

Im with Hondo. Great work. The only issue I have is I can't always get the GIFs to work. You posted all the plays on Youtube for one of your articles (2ndary article I think). Could you compile all the GIFs for an article as a Youtube video in case they don't work? Again great analysis and thank you.

What article are you having issues with the GIFS?

[Nihilarian]

For those who pine for Jim Schwartz, a few thoughts... He's worked 14 years in the NFL as a HC or DC. In half of those years, his D ranked in the bottom half of the league in yards allowed.

 

His best showing? His #4 finish with the Bills.

 

On the other hand, his defenses finished dead last in the NFL twice: in 2006 with the Titans and again in 2009 with Detroit.

 

In 2014, everything went right for Schwartz with the Bills. By dumb luck, he inherited a defensive roster that was brilliantly suited for his scheme. And the roster remained remarkably healthy. This had the obvious advantage of allowing Schwartz to field his best players every week. But there were other benefits too. The level of cohesion, and the quality of the communication, were strong because the starting 11 largely stayed together and they didn't much have to integrate back-ups and FAs signed to plug injury holes. It's not all the DC. Circumstances matter.

 

Rex's D finished 19th last year despite (1) a roster that was not terribly well-suited for his scheme, (2) key injuries, (3) Rex only having one year with the team, (4) a disgruntled star barely even trying, and (5) Rex admittedly making some schematic mistakes. I'm also wondering what prompted Rex to make some coaching changes after the 2015 season. Obviously, he thinks the staff he has now will better support his vision.

 

Can he finish top 10 this year? Top 5? Idk.

In my view, Jim Schwartz had earned another shot as DC in Buffalo because of what he did for the Bills defense! For what he was able to do with a defense that George Edwards, Dave Wannstedt, Mike Pettine and now Rex Ryan weren't able to do with a defense loaded with top talent. Not just good or decent talent but some of the very best talent in the NFL in Mario, Marcell Dareus, Jerry Hughes, Stephon Gilmore and Kyle Williams.

 

It was unbelievable in watching the #1, #2 team in sacks the previous two seasons go to 31st under Ryan. That stat about the lack of sacks wasn't just a number as it meant the Bills got very little pressure on opposing QB's all season long. The Bills were Dead last in defensive hurries in 2015! And that was a line with three pro bowlers who desperately wanted to rush the passer, yet were held back in favor of a run-stopping scheme.

 

 

Sure, the man could start using a different scheme that would actually enable his players to get pressure on the QB and get sacks. Ryan could actually instill some discipline into his players instead of being their pal. He could actually work hard at a decent game plan every week and for every opponent and not just the AFC EAST teams or teams he wants revenge against. But will he?

[hondo in seattle]

I have been subscribed to his site for a short while.

Always enjoy his breakdowns. and he does quite a lot work for us Bills fans if interessted

 

I just bookmarked his site.

 

When I watch a game live, I don't pay a ton of attention to the chess-match of X's and O's. Mostly, like a lot of fans, I watch the ball the enjoy the athleticism of the players most involved in the play and the drama of the unfolding contest.

 

It's good to go back and examine what's really happening tactically. Erik does a nice job with this.

[3rdand12]

 

I just bookmarked his site.

 

When I watch a game live, I don't pay a ton of attention to the chess-match of X's and O's. Mostly, like a lot of fans, I watch the ball the enjoy the athleticism of the players most involved in the play and the drama of the unfolding contest.

 

It's good to go back and examine what's really happening tactically. Erik does a nice job with this.

I am similar. all 22 is nice and helps review what i missed when i was yelling at the TV !

But i like Erik's take quite a bit.

[YattaOkasan]

What article are you having issues with the GIFS?

I think I had trouble with most of them. Like I said the youtube video on the secondary article was great (don't remember if it was three for every article) if that's not too much of a work around. And the GIFs could just be me. Either way you earned my loyalty (and a lot of other posters it sounds like). Keep up the great work.

[billsfan89]

Rex Ryan always threw DL into coverage when he was with the Jets. If a DE or NT backs into coverage and you blitz off the edge mentally it throws QB's off as there are bodies where there shouldn't be. Personally I don't like seeing it often in a defense, but as a wrinkle thrown in now and again it seems to be effective.