The equally annoying "Obnoxiously Obtuse Optimists"

[John from Riverside]

 

It's human nature. I work for a global consumer company and we just hired a new CEO. Not everyone's on board with her way of doing things, people at the highest echelons of the company. Guess what? They probably won't make it through the year. And she'll probably bring in her Justin Leonhards and her Bart Scott's to replace them. It's not a Rex Ryan way of doing things.

This is a good point....and probably why Schwartz was not retained.

 

Rex Ryan has his own way of doing things.....get with the program or the program is gonna get rid of you.

 

And it would not be the first time in history this has happened somewhere else...it happens all the time. The PROBLEM HERE is that fans have not seen playoffs in 15 years.....so patience is short (and justifiably so in my opinion)

[mannc]

 

Because I don't believe it's suddenly a scheme that's ineffectual against whatever an offense throws its way. Do you believe that?

Not really. I was mostly being flippant, but there is no logical reason why a scheme that struggles against the spread couldn't also suck against a power attack. Edited May 27, 2016 by mannc

[The Big Cat]

Not really. I was mostly being flippant, but there is no logical reason why a scheme that struggles against the spread couldn't also suck against a power attack.

 

Respectfully disagree. You run the spread to counter defenses built to stop a power attack...

 

Whether or not defensive personnel is actually GOOD at stopping the power attack doesn't take away from the fact that the spread is intended to exploit them and NOT play in to their perceived strengths.

[Maury Ballstein]

Not really. I was mostly being flippant, but there is no logical reason why a scheme that struggles against the spread couldn't also suck against a power attack.

It's been a flippant offseason. You have been awarded the password to the billsvet/scottlaw club.

[John from Riverside]

 

Respectfully disagree. You run the spread to counter defenses built to stop a power attack...

 

Whether or not defensive personnel is actually GOOD at stopping the power attack doesn't take away from the fact that the spread is intended to exploit them and NOT play in to their perceived strengths.

So a couple of things here

 

- I really thought that the aquisition of Zach Brown was to help us with issues of spreading us out.....I think Ragland's short area cover skills are very underrated but if it came to a situation where teams where trying to turn it into a track meet.....we have the fast linebacker in the league.

 

- Our down line is pretty darn good....but we also have a lot of speed on this team. I feel like we can make adjustments and match up well against opposing defenses.

[Nihilarian]

Thank you for this wonderful post.

You're very welcome Bill. I hope life is treating you well.

 

Perhaps. All I know is that it's a reality that professional players have much different relationship than a standard employee under their "boss." For example, Mario Williams has seen 3 regime changes alone since signing in Buffalo. 3 different bosses. He's the one making $100M. Not Gailey, or Marrone or Rex. He's the talent.

 

It's a reality that in the climate today, coaches are responsible in part for getting their players to buy in. It happens in the NBA to a much higher degree than the NFL, but it's common in the NFL. Ask Philbin. That team sucked on purpose to get him fired, or they didn't care enough to save him. Either way.

 

It's my opinion that Rex did not put forth enough effort into getting the players to buy in when he started. He was too cocky. I think he underestimated how players would feel and how reticent they would be to change things. One silver lining is that I think he's learned his lesson.

I was sorta hoping that someone would remember what Bruce Smith said and did against his first head coach in Hank Bullough. Bullough had been known to ride Bruce a bit to try and motivate him and Smith hated him for it.

 

In week 9 of the 1986 season against the Tampa Bay Bucs, it was said that Smith told the other players in the defensive huddle on the field " if anyone makes a tackle ...they answer to me!" Bullough was fired after that game and replaced by Marv Levy.

 

 

What so many Bills fans forget is before training camp that many Bills players were loving Rex Ryan and gloating about how the 2015 Bills defense could be the best ever.

 

"Asked about the defense’s goal for the season, Marcell Dareus answered, “Best ever. It’s so obtainable. All we have to do is continue to do what we want, and not what we can. If we do what we want, and do everything to head in that direction, why can’t we? Why can’t we?”

Dareus has bought into everything that Ryan is selling."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/29/bills-think-they-can-have-the-greatest-defense-ever/

That is until Dareus saw how he would be utilized in Ryan's scheme in training camp and he went very vocal to the public then. I can only imagine that if he had known what Ryan had planned for him he would have never resigned with the Bills. I can tell you he probably still isn't happy about playing the nose or even a DT in Ryan's scheme.

 

 

Bills fans say Oh, what about the second half of the season in which the defense looked better! I seem to recall how embarrassed I felt watching that Redskin game with Skins QB Kirk Cousins throwing for 319 yards, four TD passes with no INT's and looking like an elite QB. That's what happens when you can't generate a pass rush and can't get pressure on the QB. Those two losses to the 7-9 Eagles and 9-7 Redskins kept the Bills from a winning season and no shot at the playoffs.

 

The 2015 Buffalo Bills roster had enough talent to get into the playoffs. The Bills FO hired a head coach that had just gone 4-12 with his last team and was fired for it. I get the idea that the Bills FO thought they were hiring another defensive mind like Mike Pettine...only better because this man was Pettine's mentor and a defensive genius.

[John from Riverside]

You're very welcome Bill. I hope life is treating you well.

 

I was sorta hoping that someone would remember what Bruce Smith said and did against his first head coach in Hank Bullough. Bullough had been known to ride Bruce a bit to try and motivate him and Smith hated him for it.

 

In week 9 of the 1986 season against the Tampa Bay Bucs, it was said that Smith told the other players in the defensive huddle on the field " if anyone makes a tackle ...they answer to me!" Bullough was fired after that game and replaced by Marv Levy.

 

 

What so many Bills fans forget is before training camp that many Bills players were loving Rex Ryan and gloating about how the 2015 Bills defense could be the best ever.

 

"Asked about the defense’s goal for the season, Marcell Dareus answered, “Best ever. It’s so obtainable. All we have to do is continue to do what we want, and not what we can. If we do what we want, and do everything to head in that direction, why can’t we? Why can’t we?”

Dareus has bought into everything that Ryan is selling."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/29/bills-think-they-can-have-the-greatest-defense-ever/

That is until Dareus saw how he would be utilized in Ryan's scheme in training camp and he went very vocal to the public then. I can only imagine that if he had known what Ryan had planned for him he would have never resigned with the Bills. I can tell you he probably still isn't happy about playing the nose or even a DT in Ryan's scheme.

 

Rex Ryan's scheme is complex.....did it ever occur that maybe the team just needed time to get comfortable with it? There are people that keep acting like RR has never had good defenses before....when in fact he has had some VERY good defenses in the past. I think it is totally fair to reserve judgement till year 2 to see where this is at.

 

 

Bills fans say Oh, what about the second half of the season in which the defense looked better! I seem to recall how embarrassed I felt watching that Redskin game with Skins QB Kirk Cousins throwing for 319 yards, four TD passes with no INT's and looking like an elite QB. That's what happens when you can't generate a pass rush and can't get pressure on the QB. Those two losses to the 7-9 Eagles and 9-7 Redskins kept the Bills from a winning season and no shot at the playoffs.

 

Regarding the redskins.....I think that was more of matter of running into a very hot Cousins and redskins team at the time....you are not going to win every game in a season and sometimes you catch teams that are playing well and lose.....both the bengals and redskins games fall into that category (that is just my opinion)

 

The 2015 Buffalo Bills roster had enough talent to get into the playoffs. The Bills FO hired a head coach that had just gone 4-12 with his last team and was fired for it. I get the idea that the Bills FO thought they were hiring another defensive mind like Mike Pettine...only better because this man was Pettine's mentor and a defensive genius.

 

The rush to judgement after 1 year.....ONE YEAR. No patience at all

[What a Tuel]

Bills fans say Oh, what about the second half of the season in which the defense looked better! I seem to recall how embarrassed I felt watching that Redskin game with Skins QB Kirk Cousins throwing for 319 yards, four TD passes with no INT's and looking like an elite QB. That's what happens when you can't generate a pass rush and can't get pressure on the QB. Those two losses to the 7-9 Eagles and 9-7 Redskins kept the Bills from a winning season and no shot at the playoffs.

 

The highlights for the redskins are available on youtube for all to see. But yeah we will just chalk up 94's lack of effort as being told to just stand there and fake being blocked. The Redskin blocking him must've had a smile on his face all day - easiest assignment ever.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxC8klUIwDg

 

All in the first minute.

Edited May 27, 2016 by What a Tuel

[Bill from NYC]

 

I think Rex's other MMQ points surrounding this issue were well made. Specifically that players in his system have won DPOY's, been to Pro-Bowls, been named All-Pro's, etc. And at every level of the defense. So exactly what is it about Rex's defense that doesn't allow for individuals to excel?

I don't know.....Dareus in coverage? 21 sacks?

 

How can you keep on defending this?

[John from Riverside]

I don't know.....Dareus in coverage? 21 sacks?

 

How can you keep on defending this?

So your complaining about last year's results

 

That is so last year

[FireChan]

 

 

You're very welcome Bill. I hope life is treating you well.

 

I was sorta hoping that someone would remember what Bruce Smith said and did against his first head coach in Hank Bullough. Bullough had been known to ride Bruce a bit to try and motivate him and Smith hated him for it.

 

In week 9 of the 1986 season against the Tampa Bay Bucs, it was said that Smith told the other players in the defensive huddle on the field " if anyone makes a tackle ...they answer to me!" Bullough was fired after that game and replaced by Marv Levy.

 

 

What so many Bills fans forget is before training camp that many Bills players were loving Rex Ryan and gloating about how the 2015 Bills defense could be the best ever.

"Asked about the defenses goal for the season, Marcell Dareus answered, Best ever. Its so obtainable. All we have to do is continue to do what we want, and not what we can. If we do what we want, and do everything to head in that direction, why cant we? Why cant we?

Dareus has bought into everything that Ryan is selling."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/29/bills-think-they-can-have-the-greatest-defense-ever/

 

That is until Dareus saw how he would be utilized in Ryan's scheme in training camp and he went very vocal to the public then. I can only imagine that if he had known what Ryan had planned for him he would have never resigned with the Bills. I can tell you he probably still isn't happy about playing the nose or even a DT in Ryan's scheme.

 

Rex Ryan's scheme is complex.....did it ever occur that maybe the team just needed time to get comfortable with it? There are people that keep acting like RR has never had good defenses before....when in fact he has had some VERY good defenses in the past. I think it is totally fair to reserve judgement till year 2 to see where this is at.

 

 

Bills fans say Oh, what about the second half of the season in which the defense looked better! I seem to recall how embarrassed I felt watching that Redskin game with Skins QB Kirk Cousins throwing for 319 yards, four TD passes with no INT's and looking like an elite QB. That's what happens when you can't generate a pass rush and can't get pressure on the QB. Those two losses to the 7-9 Eagles and 9-7 Redskins kept the Bills from a winning season and no shot at the playoffs.

 

Regarding the redskins.....I think that was more of matter of running into a very hot Cousins and redskins team at the time....you are not going to win every game in a season and sometimes you catch teams that are playing well and lose.....both the bengals and redskins games fall into that category (that is just my opinion)

 

The 2015 Buffalo Bills roster had enough talent to get into the playoffs. The Bills FO hired a head coach that had just gone 4-12 with his last team and was fired for it. I get the idea that the Bills FO thought they were hiring another defensive mind like Mike Pettine...only better because this man was Pettine's mentor and a defensive genius.

 

The rush to judgement after 1 year.....ONE YEAR. No patience at all

Bro, Rex wasn't hired for a defensive rebuild. Needing patience for him to figure it out is a failure in and of itself. Edited May 27, 2016 by FireChan

[John from Riverside]

Bro, Rex wasn't hired for a defensive rebuild. Needing patience for him to figure it out is a failure in and of itself.

Look.....I am in agreement with that

 

but

 

Its done...the train has left the station.....I thought that RR's defense would be seamless to the players we had and it was not.....

 

Last year was last year.....its a new year. The D failed last year....RR didnt get it done LAST YEAR

 

time to stop acting like scorned ex girlfriends and look to what is about to happen.

[FireChan]

Look.....I am in agreement with that

 

but

 

Its done...the train has left the station.....I thought that RR's defense would be seamless to the players we had and it was not.....

 

Last year was last year.....its a new year. The D failed last year....RR didnt get it done LAST YEAR

 

time to stop acting like scorned ex girlfriends and look to what is about to happen.

So even though he was a complete failure in year 1, expect success in year 2, because year 1 is in the past? Edited May 27, 2016 by FireChan

[John from Riverside]

So even though he was a complete failure in year 1, expect success in year 2, because year 1 is in the past?

Well you definately should not immediately expect failure because last year was a failure?

 

By the way....last year was not a complete failure......were we dead last in the league? no we dropped 15 spots. it simply was not good enough

 

Why would you do that?

Edited May 27, 2016 by John from Hemet

[section122]

I didn't split hairs. I just said Pettine had a top ten D in the last 4 years and Rex didn't. TBH, I didn't even know he was 11.

 

Because you get your rocks off on calling other posters out...

 

In 2012 Rex Ryan had the 8th ranked defense based on ypg (the stat you chose)

In 2014 Rex Ryan had the 6th ranked defense based on ypg

 

So twice in the last 4 years RR has not finished with a top 10 defense. As a HC not simply a DC like Pettine was. Pettine went #27 and #23 as a HC. In fact the 2 years that Rex didn't finish in the top 10 for ypg are the only 2 years in his HC career that he didn't finish top 10. Pettine finished with the number 10 defense once and for that you want to trumpet his abilities?

 

As to those who stated that Pettine didn't care about stopping the run, you appear to be correct. The Bills with their "top 10 defense" had the 28th ranked rush defense. Surely you remember all of the conversions on 3rd and long against that defense as well.

 

So even though he was a complete failure in year 1, expect success in year 2, because year 1 is in the past?

 

Facts are fun....

 

Belicheck first year in NE 5-11 second year 11-5 and SB champ.

Pete Carroll first two years in Sea 7-9 both years third year 11-5 in playoffs

Tony Dungy first year 6-10 in TB next year 10-6 in playoffs

 

Three SB winning coaches who took a year or two to get it right and that is without looking to hard. You don't have to expect success but to say it can't happen because it didn't last year is flat out wrong.

 

Here's more without looking to hard

 

Mike Zimmer first year in Minn 7-9 second year 11-5 and division champ

Mike McCarthy 8-8 to 13-3

Ron Rivera 6-10, 7-9 to 12-4

 

I think I've made my point...

[John from Riverside]

 

Because you get your rocks off on calling other posters out...

 

In 2012 Rex Ryan had the 8th ranked defense based on ypg (the stat you chose)

In 2014 Rex Ryan had the 6th ranked defense based on ypg

 

So twice in the last 4 years RR has not finished with a top 10 defense. As a HC not simply a DC like Pettine was. Pettine went #27 and #23 as a HC. In fact the 2 years that Rex didn't finish in the top 10 for ypg are the only 2 years in his HC career that he didn't finish top 10. Pettine finished with the number 10 defense once and for that you want to trumpet his abilities?

 

As to those who stated that Pettine didn't care about stopping the run, you appear to be correct. The Bills with their "top 10 defense" had the 28th ranked rush defense. Surely you remember all of the conversions on 3rd and long against that defense as well.

 

 

Facts are fun....

 

Belicheck first year in NE 5-11 second year 11-5 and SB champ.

Pete Carroll first two years in Sea 7-9 both years third year 11-5 in playoffs

Tony Dungy first year 6-10 in TB next year 10-6 in playoffs

 

Three SB winning coaches who took a year or two to get it right and that is without looking to hard. You don't have to expect success but to say it can't happen because it didn't last year is flat out wrong.

 

Here's more without looking to hard

 

Mike Zimmer first year in Minn 7-9 second year 11-5 and division champ

Mike McCarthy 8-8 to 13-3

Ron Rivera 6-10, 7-9 to 12-4

 

I think I've made my point...

You indeed have

 

I like you....please post more

[FireChan]

 

Because you get your rocks off on calling other posters out...

 

In 2012 Rex Ryan had the 8th ranked defense based on ypg (the stat you chose)

In 2014 Rex Ryan had the 6th ranked defense based on ypg

 

So twice in the last 4 years RR has not finished with a top 10 defense. As a HC not simply a DC like Pettine was. Pettine went #27 and #23 as a HC. In fact the 2 years that Rex didn't finish in the top 10 for ypg are the only 2 years in his HC career that he didn't finish top 10. Pettine finished with the number 10 defense once and for that you want to trumpet his abilities?

 

As to those who stated that Pettine didn't care about stopping the run, you appear to be correct. The Bills with their "top 10 defense" had the 28th ranked rush defense. Surely you remember all of the conversions on 3rd and long against that defense as well.

I'm not trumpeting anybody. I'd take the 2013 Pettine defense over the 2015 Ryan defense for the Bills no question. And I'm happy to debate that.

 

Anyway, I did miss Rex had #6 in 14. I just assumed they were terrible based on the points allowed. Mea culpa on that one.

Belicheck first year in NE 5-11 second year 11-5 and SB champ.

Pete Carroll first two years in Sea 7-9 both years third year 11-5 in playoffs

Tony Dungy first year 6-10 in TB next year 10-6 in playoffs

 

Three SB winning coaches who took a year or two to get it right and that is without looking to hard. You don't have to expect success but to say it can't happen because it didn't last year is flat out wrong.

 

Here's more without looking to hard

 

Mike Zimmer first year in Minn 7-9 second year 11-5 and division champ

Mike McCarthy 8-8 to 13-3

Ron Rivera 6-10, 7-9 to 12-4

 

I think I've made my point...

The Peyton Manning QB defense?

 

Good thing I never said the bolded. I just think it's unlikely. Sure, some HoF coaches sucked and got better. The majority of coaches who suck continue to suck. That's a reality.