FireChan Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I keep reading about how a holding penalty on the first drive of the second half is what lost us the game. Okay. Well, there was more than one half of football played prior to that. And, in spite of four consecutive three and outs and consistently gracious field position for the Bengals throughout the first half, we were still only trailing by three points to one of the most potent offenses in the league. The game was not lost on the first three drives of the second half. The game was lost when the Bengals were sufficiently slowed in the FIRST half but our offense had no ability to provide a buffer. Touchdown on the opening drive followed by a three and out for the Bengals, that's when the boot heal should go into the throat. Instead, four straight three and outs, and the Bengals have the opportunity to claw their way back in with the help of gift-wrapped opportunities. Sorry, but we lost this game because EJ Manuel couldn't effectively move the ball with a seven point lead. Once our lead was surrendered, it was hopeless. We lost this game because EJ was lousy. Period. I thought EJ was all Marrone's fault. Traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I have harped on EJ letting the defense dictate what he throws too much. I'm glad he took a shot downfield. Not glad about it being a badly thrown ball, but that's the risk you take with high-reward plays. We weren't winning that game playing conservatively. However, to me, it looked like he resorted to a conservative style in the second half. I hated that. I'd have rather had him throw another pick pushing the ball downfield. To be fair, when he first got the ball in the second half and they were down 24-14, the offense was moving the ball (2 first downs) until a Woods hold put them in a first-and-twenty situation. I think you'll see on the All-22 that the bengals simply took away the deeper stuff given the down and distance situation. The next time he got the ball, the game was over. The score was 31-14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I thought EJ was all Marrone's fault. Traitor. I was wrong to trust Watkins' locker room quote. EJ stunk last year when he missed wide open receivers in Hackett's scheme and he stunk Sunday when he was trying to aim the ball throwing awkwardly off one foot. He stunk when Marrone supposedly hewt his feewings and he stunk when Shady was standing in the flat and he still missed him. He stunk when he was afraid to let it rip and he stunk when he spiked one off the turf rather than lead Clay into the endzone on the opening drive. Psyche, double takeback. I was right last year just like I'm right this year. To be fair, when he first got the ball in the second half and they were down 24-14, the offense was moving the ball (2 first downs) until a Woods hold put them in a first-and-twenty situation. I think you'll see on the All-22 that the bengals simply took away the deeper stuff given the down and distance situation. The next time he got the ball, the game was over. The score was 31-14. What about when he got the ball up 7-0 nothing in the first quarter? Then got it twice with the score 7-7? Then got it again when the score was 14-7? I think we're being awfully choosy about the opportunities EJ and the offense had to keep this game close/put it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I keep reading about how a holding penalty on the first drive of the second half is what lost us the game. Okay. Well, there was more than one half of football played prior to that. And, in spite of four consecutive three and outs and consistently gracious field position for the Bengals throughout the first half, we were still only trailing by three points to one of the most potent offenses in the league. The game was not lost on the first three drives of the second half. The game was lost when the Bengals were sufficiently slowed in the FIRST half but our offense had no ability to provide a buffer. Touchdown on the opening drive followed by a three and out for the Bengals, that's when the boot heal should go into the throat. Instead, four straight three and outs, and the Bengals have the opportunity to claw their way back in with the help of gift-wrapped opportunities. Sorry, but we lost this game because EJ Manuel couldn't effectively move the ball with a seven point lead. Once our lead was surrendered, it was hopeless. We lost this game because EJ was lousy. Period. Yes, games are sixty minutes long and every play contributes. A better performance from EJ and more offense earlier certainly would have given the game a different complexion. But close games at the half that end up turning into routs by the end of the third quarter usually hinge on a key play or key series. That was the case here. That is not an exoneration of EJ. As I've said previously, this was a total team loss with all three phases contributing. Manuel was not the solution, nor was he the problem. Oh, and the Bengals played a damned good game on the O side of the ball, too. If Christ himself was at QB for us, that wouldn't have changed. GO BILLS!!! Edited October 20, 2015 by K-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Yes, games are sixty minutes long and every play contributes. A better performance from EJ and more offense earlier certainly would have given the game a different complexion. But close games at the half that end up turning into routs by the end of the third quarter usually hinge on a key play or key series. That was the case here. That is not an exoneration of EJ. As I've said previously, this was a total team loss with all three phases contributing. Manuel was not the solution, nor was he the problem. Oh, and the Bengals played a damned good game on the O side of the ball, too. If Christ himself was at QB for us, that wouldn't have changed. GO BILLS!!! The Bengals had two plays that put this one away: the questionable circus catch down the middle of the field when the Duke Williams was guarding god-knows-who and the 3rd and 7 when Dalton took four and a half minutes off the clock to find AJ Green working one on one with Darby while the Bills rushed three. Those were the two plays that put the game away. But again, they're not back breakers if the offense finds away to do ANYTHING from midway through the first until the last drive of the second. Sorry, but just like in the Patriots game, just like in the Giants game and just like the near-loss in Nasvhille, when the offense goes long stretches without being able to do diddly ****, I think it's woefully disingenuous to say it was a "total team loss." Yes, special teams sucked. But, I don't know, may be if we didn't have to punt so much. And yes, the defense let up 17 first half points. But the Bengals offense (WHICH WE ALREADY KNEW WAS ONE OF THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE) never had to go more than 55 yards to reach the endzone. Why? Because the offense started inside their own 20 and didn't get a first down...on four consecutive drives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Schick Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I was wrong to trust Watkins' locker room quote. EJ stunk last year when he missed wide open receivers in Hackett's scheme and he stunk Sunday when he was trying to aim the ball throwing awkwardly off one foot. He stunk when Marrone supposedly hewt his feewings and he stunk when Shady was standing in the flat and he still missed him. He stunk when he was afraid to let it rip and he stunk when he spiked one off the turf rather than lead Clay into the endzone on the opening drive. Psyche, double takeback. I was right last year just like I'm right this year. What about when he got the ball up 7-0 nothing in the first quarter? Then got it twice with the score 7-7? Then got it again when the score was 14-7?I think we're being awfully choosy about the opportunities EJ and the offense had to keep this game close/put it away. You make some good points. As the game got out of control in the 3rd quarter, and then thinking about it afterward, it was easy to blast the D. But those early 3-and-outs really screwed us. Turnovers are more drastic and easy to focus on their damage, but the 3 -and- outs just gave a good Bengals offense too much rope to hang us with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 You make some good points. As the game got out of control in the 3rd quarter, and then thinking about it afterward, it was easy to blast the D. But those early 3-and-outs really screwed us. Turnovers are more drastic and easy to focus on their damage, but the 3 -and- outs just gave a good Bengals offense too much rope to hang us with. When a fully healthy offense loaded with weapons that have been playing in the same scheme with the same quarterback for four years keep getting handed opportunities to score, there's no defense in Christendom that will stop them in the 2015 NFL. And it was our offense, through the bulk of the first half, that was handing over those opportunities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 The Bengals had two plays that put this one away: the questionable circus catch down the middle of the field when the Duke Williams was guarding god-knows-who and the 3rd and 7 when Dalton took four and a half minutes off the clock to find AJ Green working one on one with Darby while the Bills rushed three. Those were the two plays that put the game away. But again, they're not back breakers if the offense finds away to do ANYTHING from midway through the first until the last drive of the second. Sorry, but just like in the Patriots game, just like in the Giants game and just like the near-loss in Nasvhille, when the offense goes long stretches without being able to do diddly ****, I think it's woefully disingenuous to say it was a "total team loss." Yes, special teams sucked. But, I don't know, may be if we didn't have to punt so much. And yes, the defense let up 17 first half points. But the Bengals offense (WHICH WE ALREADY KNEW WAS ONE OF THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE) never had to go more than 55 yards to reach the endzone. Why? Because the offense started inside their own 20 and didn't get a first down...on four consecutive drives. At the start of the second half, the Bengals were only up by a fieldgoal. The Bengals' first three drives of the second half totaled 213 yards and 17 points. On those three drives, Dalton went 12-of-17 for 154 yards with 11 first downs, including both scores. Dalton had three passes in the red zone, and all three were completed for touchdowns. I fail to see how EJ lost the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I fail to see how EJ lost the game. Because you didn't read anything I've written in the past 40 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 The Bengals had two plays that put this one away: the questionable circus catch down the middle of the field when the Duke Williams was guarding god-knows-who and the 3rd and 7 when Dalton took four and a half minutes off the clock to find AJ Green working one on one with Darby while the Bills rushed three. Those were the two plays that put the game away. But again, they're not back breakers if the offense finds away to do ANYTHING from midway through the first until the last drive of the second. Sorry, but just like in the Patriots game, just like in the Giants game and just like the near-loss in Nasvhille, when the offense goes long stretches without being able to do diddly ****, I think it's woefully disingenuous to say it was a "total team loss." Yes, special teams sucked. But, I don't know, may be if we didn't have to punt so much. And yes, the defense let up 17 first half points. But the Bengals offense (WHICH WE ALREADY KNEW WAS ONE OF THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE) never had to go more than 55 yards to reach the endzone. Why? Because the offense started inside their own 20 and didn't get a first down...on four consecutive drives. The point is when did the game go from a two possession game to a three possession game when time became a limiting factor? No single play ever wins or loses a game. All the plays matter, starting from the opening kickoff. There are usually critical junctures in between. Our first possession in the second half came after the Bengals went up by ten and it was a critical juncture. The game was over by the time we took the field for our second possession of the half. There was no reasonable chance of a comeback at that juncture, regardless who was at QB. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 The point is when did the game go from a two possession game to a three possession game when time became a limiting factor? No single play ever wins or loses a game. All the plays matter, starting from the opening kickoff. There are usually critical junctures in between. Our first possession in the second half came after the Bengals went up by ten and it was a critical juncture. The game was over by the time we took the field for our second possession of the half. There was no reasonable chance of a comeback at that juncture, regardless who was at QB. GO BILLS!!! If it was so critical then why did our quarterback throw six yards short of the sticks on 3 and 11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 21 points against a playoff team from a young QB who has not played in a year, with all the key injured players out. Not too shabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Because you didn't read anything I've written in the past 40 minutes. Oh, I did, and it's all quite unconvincing. The defense wasn't stopping the Bengals at all after the first half. The Bills as they're presently constructed (and with injuries to 3 of their top 5 receivers) were not going to win a shootout no matter who was at QB. Your style of argument is to pick a side and then bludgeon the rest of us with it. Remarkably now you've switched sides and you're bludgeoning us with the opposite of the argument you were hammering away with last season. It's tedious dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If it was so critical then why did our quarterback throw six yards short of the sticks on 3 and 11? This has been a problem with both QBs so far. Wondering if this is an issue with Roman or Lal perhaps. I get the idea that the receivers should sometimes be trusted to get the extra yards but so far defenses have done well to keep those slants in front of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Oh, I did, and it's all quite unconvincing. The defense wasn't stopping the Bengals at all after the first half. The Bills as they're presently constructed (and with injuries to 3 of their top 5 receivers) were not going to win a shootout no matter who was at QB. Your style of argument is to pick a side and then bludgeon the rest of us with it. Remarkably now you've switched sides and you're bludgeoning us with the opposite of the argument you were hammering away with last season. It's tedious dude. I haven't switched a damn thing in my entire time on this board, save for a brief spell last week when I misguidedly threw a bone to some of the people who saw things differently than I did last year. If you want to comb through my post history and find a single instance of me saying our EJ has been good enough to win us games if only it has been for XX, by all means. But you'll be wasting your time. Some people think it comes down to X's and O's and some people think it comes down to Jimmy's and Joe's and I have been STAUNCHLY in the latter camp for all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 The next draft the Bills need to draft a QB early. EJ will NEVER be an NFL quarterback. I was rooting so hard for the guy to make it but I have to give up on him. Three years in the league and he hasn't improved one iota. He's as bad now as he was on his first day in the league. The guy has all the physical tools but he just does NOT have it upstairs. No brains. This guy is dumber than a box of rocks. Umm did you forget that EJ is the back up... and not the starter? He played fine for a back up. If our defense hadn't been ruined by Rex, 21 should have been enough to win. Tyrod is our qb and has the potential to be great. We need O-line help with the draft, a qb is not even on the radar for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 This has been a problem with both QBs so far. Wondering if this is an issue with Roman or Lal perhaps. I get the idea that the receivers should sometimes be trusted to get the extra yards but so far defenses have done well to keep those slants in front of them. Why wonder? https://twitter.com/YardsPerPass/status/656506137081085952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 21 points against a playoff team from a young QB who has not played in a year, with all the key injured players out. Not too shabby. Mccoy played Woods Played Watkins Played Which key personnel were out, other than the starting QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If it was so critical then why did our quarterback throw six yards short of the sticks on 3 and 11? Because it was only a two possession game half-way through the third quarter and, given the field position and what the Bengal defense was willing to concede in that situation, I can see why he and Roman played it safe. Live for another series with lots of time left vs. a turnover on a short field. Perfectly understandable. But it wouldn't have been a third and eleven if not for Woods' penalty. Should have been second and three and a full playbook available. You make it sound like a first and twenty inside the fifteen is no problem to convert. For some QBs and offenses, sure. But a QB making his first start in over a year with the seventh WR on the field? Playing it safe was the right call. It became the critical juncture because by the time we got the ball back, the game was over. GO BILLS!!! Mccoy played Woods Played Watkins Played Which key personnel were out, other than the starting QB? Entering the second half, three of our six WRs were out as well as Easley. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Because it was only a two possession game half-way through the third quarter and, given the field position and what the Bengal defense was willing to concede in that situation, I can see why he and Roman played it safe. Live for another series with lots of time left vs. a turnover on a short field. Perfectly understandable. But it wouldn't have been a third and eleven if not for Woods' penalty. Should have been second and three and a full playbook available. You make it sound like a first and twenty inside the fifteen is no problem to convert. For some QBs and offenses, sure. But a QB making his first start in over a year with the seventh WR on the field? Playing it safe was the right call. It became the critical juncture because by the time we got the ball back, the game was over. GO BILLS!!! It was first and 20 from the 25. Third and 11 from the 34, hardly heels on the endzone. But, again, if they do ANYTHING in the first half, they're not in this hole to begin with. You've provided zero evidence that the fourth quarter scrambled couldn't have been avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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