The Offensive Line: Better Than Advertised?

[thebandit27]

I think that the OL will improve with the addition of Incognito and a new coaching staff. I think highly of Kromer from his time down here with the Saints. With that being said they are still at least 1-2 players away in my estimation. They need a starting guard still. I believe that Seantrel will develop into a good RT. If Urbik is your swing guy on the inside and those young guys (Richarson & Cyrus) are your depth you are okay. I would like to see a swing tackle added as well (unless they think that Seantrel can play the left side if needed and Cyrus RT).

 

They will certainly be better but that does not mean that they are where they need to be.

Pretty much this

[NoSaint]

I think that the OL will improve with the addition of Incognito and a new coaching staff. I think highly of Kromer from his time down here with the Saints. With that being said they are still at least 1-2 players away in my estimation. They need a starting guard still. I believe that Seantrel will develop into a good RT. If Urbik is your swing guy on the inside and those young guys (Richarson & Cyrus) are your depth you are okay. I would like to see a swing tackle added as well (unless they think that Seantrel can play the left side if needed and Cyrus RT).

 

They will certainly be better but that does not mean that they are where they need to be.

i agree. i just dont think we are quite as far as last year looked. Slightly improved talent (hopefully), improvements in coaching, and improvements in scheming will all hopefully be small steps towards acceptable. adding 1-2 players and it could be a pretty good unit quickly.

[billsfan1959]

PFF grades (overall) for the last three years:

 

2012 2013 2014

RT 3.3 (Hairston) -8.4 (Pears) -29.9 (Henderson)

-8.6 (Pears)

 

RG 8.6 (Urbick) 9.3 (Urbik) -25 (Pears)

 

C 1.9 (Wood) -1.6 (Wood) -5.5 (Wood

 

LG 18.9 (Levitre) -11.4 (Legursky) -9.1 (Urbik)

-29.7 (Brown) -6.9 (Williams)

-13.7 (Richardson)

 

LT 3.8 (Glenn) 19.6 (Glenn) 6.5 (Glenn)

[thebandit27]

i agree. i just dont think we are quite as far as last year looked. Slightly improved talent (hopefully), improvements in coaching, and improvements in scheming will all hopefully be small steps towards acceptable. adding 1-2 players and it could be a pretty good unit quickly.

 

Indeed...I think the biggest difference, as it stands right now, will be Henderson having a full offseason to get accustomed to right tackle. They really are different positions--everything that's become second-nature (kick-slide, weight-shift, punch, etc.) needs to be re-learned when moving in the opposite direction.

 

I definitely think that adding another competitor at guard, and some competition for the swing tackle spot, would put the OL in great shape.

[TPS]

One thing we fans have no clue about is Cordy Glenn. Did his illness hurt him all of last year and we can expect him to be back to his 2013 level, which was very good? Did Marrone/Morris just hurt him like they seemed to hurt everyone else on the line and we can now expect him to be back to his stellar 2013 play? Or did he simply have one outlier very good season and he is just not that good.

 

I'm thinking and hoping it was a combination of 1 and 2.

 

Also, everyone should listen to the LeCharles Bentley interview on Friday's John Murphy Show. Good stuff from a guy who knows. You can find it on bills.com

Thanks for the heads up on that.

 

No one knows if CK will become a solid RT (or OL starter in general), but I do think that it is stupid to judge him based on last year. A 21-year old kid, who used his talent to dominate in college, got a wake-up call, and he's taking up the challenge. We'll have a better sense of what he's capable of this season, especially since he will be the ripe old age of 22 when training camp starts.

[thebandit27]

PFF grades (overall) for the last three years:

 

2012 2013 2014

RT 3.3 (Hairston) -8.4 (Pears) -29.9 (Henderson)

-8.6 (Pears)

 

RG 8.6 (Urbick) 9.3 (Urbik) -25 (Pears)

 

C 1.9 (Wood) -1.6 (Wood) -5.5 (Wood

 

LG 18.9 (Levitre) -11.4 (Legursky) -9.1 (Urbik)

-29.7 (Brown) -6.9 (Williams)

-13.7 (Richardson)

 

LT 3.8 (Glenn) 19.6 (Glenn) 6.5 (Glenn)

 

PFF's numbers need always be taken with a grain of salt (so says Neil Hornsby, their founder). "Advanced stats" can basically be crafted to say whatever you'd like them to...for example, Advanced Football Analytics ranked the Bills' OL 13th in the NFL in "Expected Points Added":

 

http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/stats/offensive-players/team-offensive-lines

 

and Football Outsiders has them 26th in Adjusted Line Yards, but 16th in Power Success and 7th in "Stuffed" (i.e. in the top 1/4 for allowing the fewest stops behind the LOS):

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

Bottom line, IMO, is that the team's OL still needs improvement, but isn't anywhere near as bad as they were made to be by (a) poor play-calling, (b) inexperienced and immobile QBs that also held the ball far too long, and © injury-plagued and (in Spiller's case) indecisive running backs.

 

Find one more guard to compete for a starting spot with Incognito, Williams, Urbik, and Richardson, and one more tackle to compete for the RT job and swing spot with Henderson and Kouandjio and things should fall into place nicely IMO.

[TPS]

PFF grades (overall) for the last three years:

 

2012 2013 2014

RT 3.3 (Hairston) -8.4 (Pears) -29.9 (Henderson)

-8.6 (Pears)

 

RG 8.6 (Urbick) 9.3 (Urbik) -25 (Pears)

 

C 1.9 (Wood) -1.6 (Wood) -5.5 (Wood

 

LG 18.9 (Levitre) -11.4 (Legursky) -9.1 (Urbik)

-29.7 (Brown) -6.9 (Williams)

-13.7 (Richardson)

 

LT 3.8 (Glenn) 19.6 (Glenn) 6.5 (Glenn)

Good stuff--thanks!

Assuming the #s have some legitimacy, Urbik was a serviceable RG, and the decision to sit him and move Pears to RG was idiotic.

[billsfan1959]

 

PFF's numbers need always be taken with a grain of salt (so says Neil Hornsby, their founder). "Advanced stats" can basically be crafted to say whatever you'd like them to...for example, Advanced Football Analytics ranked the Bills' OL 13th in the NFL in "Expected Points Added":

 

http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/stats/offensive-players/team-offensive-lines

 

and Football Outsiders has them 26th in Adjusted Line Yards, but 16th in Power Success and 7th in "Stuffed" (i.e. in the top 1/4 for allowing the fewest stops behind the LOS):

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

Bottom line, IMO, is that the team's OL still needs improvement, but isn't anywhere near as bad as they were made to be by (a) poor play-calling, (b) inexperienced and immobile QBs that also held the ball far too long, and © injury-plagued and (in Spiller's case) indecisive running backs.

 

Find one more guard to compete for a starting spot with Incognito, Williams, Urbik, and Richardson, and one more tackle to compete for the RT job and swing spot with Henderson and Kouandjio and things should fall into place nicely IMO.

Agreed. I typically quote them because it is the quickest and easiest way for me to grab stats for individual players and comparisons between individual players. It still provides some assessment among players within the same metrics

[thebandit27]

Agreed. I typically quote them because it is the quickest and easiest way for me to grab stats for individual players and comparisons between individual players. It still provides some assessment among players within the same metrics

 

Oh sure...I don't mean to altogether marginalize their analysis, because--as you said--there's some apples-to-apples stuff going on there.

[NoSaint]

 

Indeed...I think the biggest difference, as it stands right now, will be Henderson having a full offseason to get accustomed to right tackle. They really are different positions--everything that's become second-nature (kick-slide, weight-shift, punch, etc.) needs to be re-learned when moving in the opposite direction.

 

I definitely think that adding another competitor at guard, and some competition for the swing tackle spot, would put the OL in great shape.

agree all around.

 

cordy hopefully being healthy all offseason could be another boost for the unit. if he was ill last offseason you could see everything from the basic just being rusty from lack of reps up to actual physical deterioration.

[Doc]

PFF grades (overall) for the last three years:

 

2012 2013 2014

RT 3.3 (Hairston) -8.4 (Pears) -29.9 (Henderson)

-8.6 (Pears)

 

RG 8.6 (Urbick) 9.3 (Urbik) -25 (Pears)

 

C 1.9 (Wood) -1.6 (Wood) -5.5 (Wood

 

LG 18.9 (Levitre) -11.4 (Legursky) -9.1 (Urbik)

-29.7 (Brown) -6.9 (Williams)

-13.7 (Richardson)

 

LT 3.8 (Glenn) 19.6 (Glenn) 6.5 (Glenn)

While probably not perfect, those numbers seem to jibe with what we saw. I still think that Glenn and Wood were hindered by poor OG play (and Glenn's illness), if not coaching, and will be helped by Incognito and probably Kromer. And like I said, Urbik was a decent RG prior to last season when he got jerked around and should be again, which will help Wood and the RT. Speaking of RT, that's the biggest question: whether Henderson will improve or someone else will rise up.

[NoSaint]

While probably not perfect, those numbers seem to jibe with what we saw. I still think that Glenn and Wood were hindered by poor OG play (and Glenn's illness), if not coaching, and will be helped by Incognito and probably Kromer. And like I said, Urbik was a decent RG prior to last season when he got jerked around and should be again, which will help Wood and the RT. Speaking of RT, that's the biggest question: whether Henderson will improve or someone else will rise up.

and of course, some of the play calling tendencies. i think we will design plays to their strengths, and work to mask weaknesses which i was underwhelmed with last year. it seemed to often we attacked the strength of the defense with things we were not actually good at.

[SoulMan]

Draft a guard, center, .....2,3. or vice versa. This is a pretty good year for OL's.

[billsfan1959]

and of course, some of the play calling tendencies. i think we will design plays to their strengths, and work to mask weaknesses which i was underwhelmed with last year. it seemed to often we attacked the strength of the defense with things we were not actually good at.

Agreed 100%. While we hear from coaches all the time that they will design plays that maximize player strengths and minimize weaknesses, it is another thing to actually see it manifest on the field. I am a big Roman fan and have been for awhile. He truly does have an innovative mind when it comes to offensive play design. Add Kromer to the mix and I think we will see improved fundamental play among the offensive line - as well as a much better understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of all offensive players, upon which game plans are designed.

 

More excited than I have been in a long, long time....

[San-O]

PFF grades (overall) for the last three years:

 

2012 2013 2014

RT 3.3 (Hairston) -8.4 (Pears) -29.9 (Henderson)

-8.6 (Pears)

 

RG 8.6 (Urbick) 9.3 (Urbik) -25 (Pears)

 

C 1.9 (Wood) -1.6 (Wood) -5.5 (Wood

 

LG 18.9 (Levitre) -11.4 (Legursky) -9.1 (Urbik)

-29.7 (Brown) -6.9 (Williams)

-13.7 (Richardson)

 

LT 3.8 (Glenn) 19.6 (Glenn) 6.5 (Glenn)

 

 

AWESOME!!!

 

1. Pears is/was horrible, and now gone. + 1

2. LG has been an absolute disaster, as we all know.

3. Wood seems to be steadily regressing?

4. Urbik seems much more suited for RG.

5. Glenn took a big step back last year.

6. Henderson was brutal, per the stats but seemed better than that?

 

- Move Urbik back to RG

 

- Why did they let Hairston go?

 

- Draft some more O linemen and better get someone who can play.

[San-O]

... more evidence that Marrone turned a decent O line into a dumpster fire!!!

[thewildrabbit]

PFF grades (overall) for the last three years:

 

2012 2013 2014

RT 3.3 (Hairston) -8.4 (Pears) -29.9 (Henderson)

-8.6 (Pears)

 

RG 8.6 (Urbick) 9.3 (Urbik) -25 (Pears)

 

C 1.9 (Wood) -1.6 (Wood) -5.5 (Wood

 

LG 18.9 (Levitre) -11.4 (Legursky) -9.1 (Urbik)

-29.7 (Brown) -6.9 (Williams)

-13.7 (Richardson)

 

LT 3.8 (Glenn) 19.6 (Glenn) + 6.5 (Glenn)

When PFF posted Cordy Glenn's grade of (+23) for 2013 fans here couldn't stop gushing about how good he is, and that number was more then accurate then. Now when the players get bad grades they must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Take a long hard look at those numbers because they don't lie. Urbik only had 9 game starts last season, and he played very poorly in a lot of games. My biggest problem with this player is he plays his worst in the big games. I agree with Kirby that the team still needs one to two quality starters for the line, and two would be ideal in my view. There was a strong reason why the bills made an attempt to sign RT Bryan Bulaga. Look at the numbers as those are for an overall grade, they don't reflect the actual RUN* blocking grades which are much worse.

 

 

Try and put this into perspective from the other side of the line. Would any of you think it would be OK with a player on the defensive line with a negative grade at DT, or DE? The Bills have a 100 million dollar DE, and a 50 cent RT. A pro bowl DT, and 25 cent OG's. Thinking that a new coach is suddenly going to resurrect bums into passable quality players is more then ridiculous.

 

... more evidence that Marrone turned a decent O line into a dumpster fire!!!

I don't hold Marrone totally responsible for the play last year because he wanted Urbik gone, and the FO told him he was a quality player. Edited March 19, 2015 by FeartheLosing

[Kelly the Dog]

When PFF posted Cordy Glenn's grade of (+23) for 2013 fans here couldn't stop gushing about how good he is, and that number was more then accurate then. Now when the players get bad grades they must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Take a long hard look at those numbers because they don't lie. Urbik only had 9 game starts last season, and he played very poorly in a lot of games. My biggest problem with this player is he plays his worst in the big games. I agree with Kirby that the team still needs one to two quality starters for the line, and two would be ideal in my view. There was a strong reason why the bills made an attempt to sign RT Bryan Bulaga. Look at the numbers as those are for an overall grade, they don't reflect the actual blocking grades which are much worse.

 

 

Try and put this into perspective from the other side of the line. Would any of you think it would be OK with a player on the defensive line with a negative grade at DT, or DE? The Bills have a 100 million dollar DE, and a 50 cent RT. A pro bowl DT, and 25 cent OG's. Thinking that a new coach is suddenly going to resurrect bums into passable quality players is more then ridiculous.

 

I don't hold Marrone totally responsible for the play last year because he wanted Urbik gone, and the FO told him he was a quality player.

Marrone also played him at LG when he played well at RG. Some guys it's a fairly easy switch, other guys not so much. Marrone never should have played Pears at RG. It was a momumental disaster. He never should have played Henderson right away at RT after playing him exclusively at LT since he was drafted. That was a disaster. He never should have played Richardson at LG when Williams got hurt. That was a momumental disaster and a short while after I heard Marrone say himself they had to completely teach him fundamentals from scratch. We don't know whether Glenn's fall was illness related or Marrone related. I think it was some of both. Wood suffered from marrone's two monumental disaster decisions at OG on either side of him.

[NoSaint]

I don't hold Marrone totally responsible for the play last year because he wanted Urbik gone, and the FO told him he was a quality player.

yea -- urbik being a backup was really the downfall of that line. shame on whaley.

 

i think you are the first to argue that the issue wasnt marrones refusal to play him.

[thebandit27]

When PFF posted Cordy Glenn's grade of (+23) for 2013 fans here couldn't stop gushing about how good he is, and that number was more then accurate then. Now when the players get bad grades they must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Since "grain of salt" were my exact words I'll assume you're addressing me...many of us said even then that PFF grades should be taken with a grain of salt because they're rather arbitrary in nature.

 

That hadn't changed.

Edited March 19, 2015 by thebandit27