Chef Jim Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Never? You started it you twit! So what was for lunch at the cafeteria today or did your mom pack you a lunch. Edited May 21, 2015 by Chef Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 So what was for lunch at the cafeteria today or did you mom pack you a lunch. He's probably getting the free Michelle Obama lunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Never? You started it you twit! Yup, its so bad pointing out where he is wrong. He started all this Gestapo stuff and now wants to deny it. Pathetic, but at least he has a dimwit idiot like you to defend him. Bravo! What was my point regarding bringing up the Gestapo and the KGB? What was your point when you brought up the Gestapo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yup, its so bad pointing out where he is wrong. He started all this Gestapo stuff and now wants to deny it. Pathetic, but at least he has a dimwit idiot like you to defend him. Bravo! What the hell are you yacking about now? If I was defending anyone, it was you. Greg continues to try to have an honest discussion with you, which is clearly a waste of time. You're just too damned stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 What the hell are you yacking about now? If I was defending anyone, it was you. Greg continues to try to have an honest discussion with you, which is clearly a waste of time. You're just too damned stupid. "Double dumbass on you!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Does anybody have numbers on how much all this spying slows down the internet and computers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) Edward Snowden goes to Reddit for an enlightening AMA ("Ask Me Anything")" https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/36ru89/just_days_left_to_kill_mass_surveillance_under/ [–]masshamacide 1078 points 23 hours agoWhat're your thoughts on Rand Paul's filibuster against the renewal of the Patriot Act? [–]SuddenlySnowdenEDWARD SNOWDEN 2011 points 23 hours ago It represents a sea change from a few years ago, when intrusive new surveillance laws were passed without any kind of meaningful opposition or debate. Whatever you think about Rand Paul or his politics, it's important to remember that when he took the floor to say "No" to any length of reauthorization of the Patriot Act, he was speaking for the majority of Americans -- more than 60% of whom want to see this kind of mass surveillance reformed or ended. He was joined by several other senators who disagree with the Senate Majority leader's efforts to sneak through a reauthorization of what courts just weeks ago declared was a comprehensively unlawful program, and if you notice that yours did not take to the floor with him, you should call them right now (1-920-END-4-215) and ask them to vote against any extension of the Patriot Act, because the final vote is being forced during the dark of a holiday weekend to shield them from criticism. (Different Q and A) [–]noahfischel 1548 points 23 hours agoSorry, I just had to ask, but, Mr. Snowden, during the interview with John Oliver, was that really a picture of his junk in that folder? [–]SuddenlySnowdenEDWARD SNOWDEN 3628 points 22 hours ago( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) [–]RAcincinnatus 1501 points 22 hours agoYou just went full Reddit Loads of serious questions and answers in here as well, including numbers and websites to go to if you wish to voice your opposition to extending the most controversial portions of the Patriot Act without reform. Worth a look for those interested. Americans Want the Patriot Act to Die. Let It: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/21/americans-want-the-patriot-act-to-die-let-it.html A new ACLU-commissioned poll released this week finds that voters want the Patriot Act to be modified to protect Americans’ privacy—by nearly two-to-one margin. The poll also notes that more than 80 percent of likely voters are concerned that the government is collecting and storing personal information such as phone records, emails, and bank statements. Almost the same percentage of people says that a warrant should be required to search those types of records. It’s clear what the public wants: a retooled, less invasive Patriot Act. The USA Freedom Act—a modest, inadequate rollback of some of the NSA’s authorities just passed by the House—faces an uncertain future in a divided Senate. Some Senators have rallied around the bill, framing it as the only viable reform option on the table. Senate Republican leadership, however, appears to have rejected the notion of reform and supports reauthorizing the expiring provisions for five years or, at least, temporarily. Both approaches are misguided. Unless the Senate can make substantial improvements to the USA Freedom Act, Congress should simply let the provisions of the Patriot Act expire instead. Edited May 22, 2015 by GreggyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Flawed US Freedom Act fails in the Senate, Patriot Act Extension also fails to pass: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/23/nsa-bulk-phone-records-collection-usa-freedom-act-senate The NSA and the Obama administration have conceded that the bulk domestic phone records collection has never stopped a terrorist attack. Even though the administration has taken as a fallback position the line that the FBI surveillance powers under Section 215 are crucial for domestic counterterrorism, a Justice Department inspector general’s report issued on Thursday “did not identify any major case developments that resulted from use of the records obtained in response to Section 215 orders.” (SNIP) “No matter what comes next, tonight’s rejections of the extension of Section 215 represent a victory for democracy over totalitarianism; for open government over secret law; for reasonability over hysteria,” said David Segal of Demand Progress after the vote. “Those who helm the government’s surveillance apparatus have engaged in craven abuse of already overly-expansive spying powers that do nothing to reduce the threat of terrorism, but pose ongoing threats to privacy, freedom, and democratic governance.” That bears repeating: "The NSA have conceded that bulk domestic phone records collection has never stopped a terrorist attack." But... despite this admission, the fear monger machine continues to churn up hysteria: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/22/sen-jim-inhofe-says-patriot-act-opponents-dont-understand-north-korea-path-kill-everyone/ Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., says his office is getting deluged with phone calls in support of his colleague Sen. Rand Paul’s, R-Ky., campaign to end dragnet surveillance enabled by the Patriot Act. But in an interview on Friday with radio station KTOK in Oklahoma City, Inhofe dismissed his constituents, claiming that privacy advocates don’t understand that “we’re in the most threatened position in the history of this country.” The senator argued “countries like North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Syria, all of them are on the path to getting bombs and delivery systems that would reach the United States of America and could have the effect of killing everyone who is listening now.” Inhofe went on to say that “everyone in the leadership except the president of the United States” recognizes the threat he was describing, adding, “when you stop and think and make a choice between having a complete city bombed out and privacy, my choice is easy.” What a dick. Edited May 23, 2015 by GreggyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The real question here is about, you guessed it: wether proper analytics methodology has been applied, and whether it is getting results. Amazingly, given all their expertise , the real answer is not going to come from privacy activists. They never have, do not, and never will have the answer to whether correlation of phone meta data creates recognizable patterns that allow us to target specific phones, that have had contact with bad guy phones, for further investigation. That is exactly what the bulk meta collection is about. In fact, this: That bears repeating: "The NSA have conceded that bulk domestic phone records collection has never stopped a terrorist attack." does NOT bear repeating. Not at all. Not if you understand how things really work in intelligence. The NSA would concede that they had a flying pig program, and wasted millions on it, if it meant keeping their people and methods safe. Or, more importantly, if it meant serving up false intelligence to the enemy. Denying that it works, could just as easily mean that it has stopped a terrorist attack. They will never, ever admit that it has worked, even if it has once, and doubly so if has worked multiple times. Not ever. That's the kind of ***** that gets declassified maybe 100 years from now, if and only if the same method can't be applied to the technology of that time. Get it? Once more: if it works, and they say it does, the enemy will change tactics, and now they lose the method. Thus, they will always deny: 1. They are doing it 2. That it works It's the same reason they say "torture doesn't work." You focus on that, and you stop focusing on whether they are doing it or not. So, enough with the nonsense. Snowden doesn't know jack schit about the effectiveness of the program, and he never did. The ONLY people who will ever be able to TRULY tell if what I described above works are the POTUS, the program managers, and whoever is "read in" to it. IF it works, the POTUS will do it, and tough schit if you don't like it. If it doesn't work, the NSA will leak that it does, and then publicy deny that it does. If for no other reason than to force our enemies into changing tactics...the ones we want them to employ. Thus, we will NEVER know if it works. That presents us with 3 logical cases: 1. It doesn't work, and they will deny they are doing it. 2. It does work, and they will deny they are doing it 3. They will find something that works better, do that, but continue to deny they are doing the old thing. Notice a pattern? Rand Paul is right when he says we have to watch government carefully. But, I am also right about those 3 being the only logical cases. Remember the Star Wars Program from the 80s? All complete BS. But, Gorbachev bought it whole: He demanded we shut down a pure fantasy, in return for his real nukes, as part of the negotiations. For all we know, this entire thing is an operation, and a very clever one. Send patsy Snowden out with half-ass info about a method we don't use, leak/deny, repeat, etc...to protect the methods we do use. Hell, for all we know they could have profiled Snowden and hired him purpose, knowing he would turn traitor. They could have easily manipulated a dumbass like Snowden into thinking he's being "the hero". Like it or not, that's how real intelligence/counter-intelligence works, and they do schit like this every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 The NSA would concede that they had a flying pig program, and wasted millions on it, if it meant keeping their people and methods safe. Or, more importantly, if it meant serving up false intelligence to the enemy. There are more than one group out there that believes Snowden continues to be in the employ of NSA and his whistleblowing is part of a plan to further destabilize Europe. Considering the fallout from Snowden's actions have been far more severe for public officials in Europe than here, there might be something to that. Of course the people that believe this most are in Moscow. That said, the purpose of bulk collection of US citizen's data is NOT to stop terrorism. It never has been. We know this because as others have pointed out, there's simply too much data to be of any predictive use by intelligence agencies. Tom said it best earlier, it's like looking for a needle in a room full of needles. This has been confirmed, on record and off, by plenty of people inside and outside of NSA and Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 There are more than one group out there that believes Snowden continues to be in the employ of NSA and his whistleblowing is part of a plan to further destabilize Europe. Considering the fallout from Snowden's actions have been far more severe for public officials in Europe than here, there might be something to that. Of course the people that believe this most are in Moscow. That said, the purpose of bulk collection of US citizen's data is NOT to stop terrorism. It never has been. We know this because as others have pointed out, there's simply too much data to be of any predictive use by intelligence agencies. Tom said it best earlier, it's like looking for a needle in a room full of needles. This has been confirmed, on record and off, by plenty of people inside and outside of NSA and Washington. Dude, there is no such thing as too much data...today. Perhaps 5-10 years ago, maybe. Sometimes you need a lot, sometimes not. Thus "bulk" is not the issue. Design is. Good design == it doesn't matter if there's a billion records or 10k. If the system is designed poorly, we're screwed, period. IF the NSA truly thinks it needs every single phone call at all times, to do this right, that's incompetence, period. The only reason to use a system like this is for pattern recognition. You want the patterns you can't find on your own, to come to you. Thus, the only thing that matters is if patterns emerge. The volume of data is either irrelevant, or will change case by case. All the great analytic design in the world doesn't matter if the raw data collected is crap. You need the data...that you need. It comes down, as it always does, to database design. So, rather than pissing and moaning about what doesn't matter(volume/bulk of data), the right thing to do see the data model. Example: If there's no place in the model to store coversations, then they can't be recording them. Show somebody like me the system, all they need to say is "good" or "bad", and everybody lives. Bottom Line: I seriously doubt collecting the meta data on every phone call made in the USA the last 2 weeks is necessary for patterns to emerge. It's not a needle in stack of needles at all. Instead, it's better to see this as watching sand for snakes. You can't be looking at every grain of sand everywhere around you, all the time. But, in order to see movement, yeah, you have to look at the sand around the movement. Thus, the "bulk" == both the "grains"(phone meta data) of sand where the snake is, and the sand around him, need to be observed, otherwise, how can you see the snake? Now, does that mean that some of the sand we look at doesn't have a snake == some phone call meta data will be monitored in error? Yeah, but, as soon as we figure that out, the data is useless. A competent NSA guy will dump it, because it muddles things up. We don't need a Federal case to figure out that garbage goes in the trash, or that the NSA people who run this program know that. Technically speaking: there has to be more than just bulk meta data on phone calls in play here. There has to be other dimensions(additonal, classified data sets, like the call list of a terrorist's mother's phone we've compromised == CIA) that show us the "movement"/where to look, generally. Then, yeah, we need to collect a butload of records around that targeted area, which the method says has a high propensity to find the bad guy. How much "bulk" depends on the size/behavior of the snake. Therefore, arbitrarily restricting "bulk", for "bulk"'s sake alone, is stupid. RE: intelligence agencies, yeah, I agree, it's doubtful they have the staff/ability to do something like this. That doesn't mean Verizon doesn't, or some black agency doesn't exist solely to do this. Retired spies are more than willing to go on TV and throw one more hanging curve ball to the media, just to screw them over one more time. Remember that the "experts" on TV or in an article, whose word you are taking at face value, have spent the last 40 years lying, convincingly, for a living. It's more likely the whole thing is a patsy operation, which means Snowden is not a current employee of the NSA. Rather, he is a dope who got suckered into running off with planted intelligence. If the Russians have him, and they thought for 1 second he was a double, he'd be dead. Rather, it's likely the Russians figured that the best use of Snowden and his intel is propaganda. The last thing they want to do is buy a counter-intelligence scheme. It's better to use him as they have, and let the idiots rant and rave around the Snowden Maypole. It's highly doubtful they were able to develop anything actionable out of what Snowden has. He's wasn't placed high enough to know/see the big picture and understand the method, and frankly he lacks the skills necessary, given his body of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 What was my point regarding bringing up the Gestapo and the KGB? What was your point when you brought up the Gestapo? What was your point saying I brought them up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5y-ok3l27k Gatorman I'd like you to watch this series, if after that you don't give a damn about loss of privacy then I'll give up on you. Hi Bob, I watched, not watching the other ones though. I thought it was pretty weak to be honest. They talked about MLKing and the FBI watching him and asked, what could they do now? Kind of short of details aside from the the statements that the FBI could have destroyed him. Ok, how? I think they could have destroyed him then if they wanted to . Then they talked about Spitzer. And I understand how they used the money transfer info to bust him but they dismisses his case as no big deal. The governor of New York using the services of a criminal organization is no big deal? Ok. Sounds to me like the system actually worked Sorry, I guess you have to give up on me now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Flawed US Freedom Act fails in the Senate, Patriot Act Extension also fails to pass: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/23/nsa-bulk-phone-records-collection-usa-freedom-act-senate That bears repeating: "The NSA have conceded that bulk domestic phone records collection has never stopped a terrorist attack." But... despite this admission, the fear monger machine continues to churn up hysteria: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/22/sen-jim-inhofe-says-patriot-act-opponents-dont-understand-north-korea-path-kill-everyone/ What a dick. absolutely. publicize a plausible threat, make it seem unpatriotic to question the means to an end ("patriot act"), citizenry readily gives up freedom. hmmm, where have i seen that strategy conveyed before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 absolutely. publicize a plausible threat, make it seem unpatriotic to question the means to an end ("patriot act"), citizenry readily gives up freedom. hmmm, where have i seen that strategy conveyed before? Global Warming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Global Warming. well, no. witness the legions of deniers. scientists aren't nearly as good at leading sheep as are fascists and neocons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 well, no. witness the legions of deniers. Given all the evidence against the myth of global cooling warming climate change, we should drop the 'deniers' moniker and begin referring to those who DO believe in global cooling warming climate change as 'fabricators'? Who's with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) Given all the evidence against the myth of global cooling warming climate change, we should drop the 'deniers' moniker and begin referring to those who DO believe in global cooling warming climate change as 'fabricators'? Who's with me? Nah, cause then you'll piss off the carpenters who pre-fab houses. And, the metal workers, plumbers and welders. At least half of a Navy ship is fabricated. How about we call these people what they are: unprincipled, self-interested, phony demagogues. The mere use of the word "denier" defines them as such. Who else would try to conflate a real human horror story in the Holocaust, with perfectly reasonable, and generally accepted since the Enlightenment, scientific scrutiny and skepticism? That's right: if we apply the same approach we MUST with any scientific theory, to Global Warming, that makes us == to crazed neo-Nazis who deny the Holocaust. Again, the behavior tells us all we need to know. Why the conflation of 2 things that have nothing to do with each other? Why the auto-character assassination? Look at the debate going on in this thread. Other than the "What a dick" comment from GreggyT, this has been a reasoned argument about where to draw the line. That's because both "sides"(there really aren't sides, are there? Well, except for gator of course ) are being intellectually honest, are 100% focused on the stated purpose of the discussion, and are not looking to self-enrich personally or politically. There are no side agendas. Now, contrast that with Global Warming. Utter lack of intellectual honesty(need I remind us about the Professor of Scientific Ethics who forged documents yet again?), and an obvious ulterior motive to use Global Warming as a vehicle for a myriad of political/personal agendas, none of which have the planet's health in mind. These people get more shrill by the day: because they know they are busted, and they don't want to admit it. Edited May 26, 2015 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 26, 2015 Author Share Posted May 26, 2015 Bottom Line: I seriously doubt collecting the meta data on every phone call made in the USA the last 2 weeks is necessary for patterns to emerge. It's not a needle in stack of needles at all. Instead, it's better to see this as watching sand for snakes. You can't be looking at every grain of sand everywhere around you, all the time. But, in order to see movement, yeah, you have to look at the sand around the movement. Thus, the "bulk" == both the "grains"(phone meta data) of sand where the snake is, and the sand around him, need to be observed, otherwise, how can you see the snake? Now, does that mean that some of the sand we look at doesn't have a snake == some phone call meta data will be monitored in error? Yeah, but, as soon as we figure that out, the data is useless. A competent NSA guy will dump it, because it muddles things up. I don't disagree with you in theory, assuming that the actual intended purpose of this unconstitutional bulk collection of American's meta data was to combat or predict terrorist attacks. I just disagree that's what the system was designed for. Hi Bob, I watched, not watching the other ones though. I thought it was pretty weak to be honest. They talked about MLKing and the FBI watching him and asked, what could they do now? Kind of short of details aside from the the statements that the FBI could have destroyed him. Ok, how? I think they could have destroyed him then if they wanted to . You believe actors within the federal government didn't want to destroy MLK? This might be the dumbest thing you've ever posted... and you've posted a lot of nonsense before. Now we know it's not only current events that befuddle you, but history as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Given all the evidence against the myth of global cooling warming climate change, we should drop the 'deniers' moniker and begin referring to those who DO believe in global cooling warming climate change as 'fabricators'? Who's with me? a large group of morons are with you. the educated and unbeholden largely aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 scientists aren't nearly as good at leading sheep They seem to be doing ok with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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