Deranged Rhino Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 NSA reform is unavoidable but it can be undermined if we're not careful: Bolstered by a historic court of appeals opinion from last week that ruled much of NSA’s mass surveillance on Americans illegal, Congress is scrambling to pass a reform bill for the NSA before 1 June, when a key section of the Patriot Act, known as Section 215, will expire unless both houses vote to extend it. Now the only question is how far they’ll go. (snip) It’s hard to understate the 2nd Circuit ruling’s sweeping nature: not only did the three judge panel declare the notorious phone metadata program unlawful, but all other still secret mass surveillance programs are now illegal as well. (For example, Senator Richard Burr curiously claimed last week on the Senate floorthat the NSA is mining American IP addresses in bulk using the Patriot Act. When he was called out for seemingly making classified information public, his statements quickly disappeared from the official congressional record.) (snip) The problem is that the USA Freedom Act is also a confusing conglomeration of vague clauses and definitions that some lawyers think could allow the NSA to twist and warp in secret to allow them to continue to abuse the privacy of the American people. Given the courts have already gutted the NSA’s convoluted legal arguments, Congress now needs to go much further and remove any doubt from USA Freedom’s language. (TheElectronic Frontier Foundation and theAmerican Civil Liberties Union have both withdrawn support from the House’s version of USA Freedom for this very reason.) (snip) The real battle over how this will all shape up will be in the Senate. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is bizarrely still pushing to re-authorize the Patriot Act despite the court’s crystal clear ruling that the program is illegal in its current form. Senate Majority leader McConnell took to the Senate floor just after the 2nd Circuit ruling and insisted the Senate must go ahead and reauthorize the Patriot Act regardless. As minority leader in the Senate Harry Reid flatly told McConnell in response: “How can you reauthorize something that’s illegal? You can’t. You shouldn’t.” http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/13/nsa-reform-is-unavoidable-but-it-can-be-undermined-if-we-arent-careful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Critics blast the USA Freedom Act as "fake reform": The bill's failure to kill the business and telephone records section of the Patriot Act, which would expire on June 1 without congressional action, is "fake reform," according to digital rights groups Fight for the Future and Demand Progress and progressive carrier CREDO Mobile. The bill would expand NSA surveillance powers to VoIP and video chats and would take the "wind out of the sails of real reform by appearing to have addressed mass surveillance," the groups said on a new website, USAFreedom.fail. http://www.computerworld.com/article/2922387/data-privacy/critics-blast-nsa-phone-records-bill-as-fake-reform.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Critics blast the USA Freedom Act as "fake reform": http://www.computerworld.com/article/2922387/data-privacy/critics-blast-nsa-phone-records-bill-as-fake-reform.html You do realize that one day you're just going to disappear, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 You do realize that one day you're just going to disappear, right? I do. Considering my occupation, my search history alone would be enough to disappear me. But I have a plan. When they come for me, I'm going to tell them that Gator assured me there's checks and balances in place to protect me. That's probably when things will suddenly cut to black. I trust you'll have a beer in my digital memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I do. Considering my occupation, my search history alone would be enough to disappear me. But I have a plan. When they come for me, I'm going to tell them that Gator assured me there's checks and balances in place to protect me. That's probably when things will suddenly cut to black. I trust you'll have a beer in my digital memory. Don't worry about it. Although it's a completely different department of the conspiracy than mine, people from that side have told me that you're not only a decidedly small fish, but more useful where you are than in extra-judicial double-secret detention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Critics blast the USA Freedom Act as "fake reform": http://www.computerworld.com/article/2922387/data-privacy/critics-blast-nsa-phone-records-bill-as-fake-reform.html So this is how the "We are worse than Nazi Germany" crowd of professional hot air blowers is reacting to reform? I guess they are scared they will lose their jobs of they can't keep up the hysteria over this. So goes the world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 So this is how the "We are worse than Nazi Germany" crowd of professional hot air blowers is reacting to reform? I guess they are scared they will lose their jobs of they can't keep up the hysteria over this. So goes the world... 30 pages into this thread and you still don't understand the subject. It's really hard to be so proactively dense, so I have to give you credit for sticking to your unloaded guns. But then again, you believe Hillary didn't vote for the Iraq war, she voted for a bargaining chip -- a statement that can only be made by a person who is more than a few neurons short of a fully functioning frontal lobe. That's the ribbon winner for stupidity on this site, even topping "Trade Mario for Skellton!" Take pride in that level of stupid. Or, you know, be smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 30 pages into this thread and you still don't understand the subject. It's really hard to be so proactively dense, so I have to give you credit for sticking to your unloaded guns. But then again, you believe Hillary didn't vote for the Iraq war, she voted for a bargaining chip -- a statement that can only be made by a person who is more than a few neurons short of a fully functioning frontal lobe. That's the ribbon winner for stupidity on this site, even topping "Trade Mario for Skellton!" Take pride in that level of stupid. Or, you know, be smarter. I understand it perfectly well there. You are the boy crying wolf and you position is so weak you have to drag Hillary and Iraq into this? Ha! Oh no, will you try and get us to define privacy again? You are such a clown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 I understand it perfectly well there. You are the boy crying wolf and you position is so weak you have to drag Hillary and Iraq into this? Ha! Oh no, will you try and get us to define privacy again? You are such a clown There is a clown in this thread. By the way, what's my "weak" position? Care to summarize it for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 There is a clown in this thread. By the way, what's my "weak" position? Care to summarize it for me? I can't even begin to imagine what sort of nonsense he would post in response to that question. He'll dodge it. Inartfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 There is a clown in this thread. By the way, what's my "weak" position? Care to summarize it for me? Will you promise to answer questions too? If you promise, I will answer. And I promise I won't ask about checks and balances, something you obviously have an incredible lack of understanding about. Anyway, more proof this issue isn't as important as the screamers are making it out to be. I guess we are not Nazi Germany after all http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/sen-rand-paul-does-not-commit-patriot-act-filibuster-n360246 I can't even begin to imagine what sort of nonsense he would post in response to that question. He'll dodge it. Inartfully. You know nonsense for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 If Delta team can get ISIS' number two, surely someone can get gatorman....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Will you promise to answer questions too? If you promise, I will answer. And I promise I won't ask about checks and balances, something you obviously have an incredible lack of understanding about. Anyway, more proof this issue isn't as important as the screamers are making it out to be. I guess we are not Nazi Germany after all http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/sen-rand-paul-does-not-commit-patriot-act-filibuster-n360246 You know nonsense for sure. He dodged it. Inartfully. What a...surprise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 He dodged it. Inartfully. What a...surprise... Funny, you never point out how Greg dodges questions. What's really your problem? Why are you always on here night and day? Do you have a life? You seem like a total POS to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Funny, you never point out how Greg dodges questions. He doesn't. What's really your problem? Why are you always on here night and day? Do you have a life? You seem like a total POS to me Your opinion will concern me the day I start taking you seriously. That day is not today. And I'm betting it's not tomorrow either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 Will you promise to answer questions too? If you promise, I will answer. Of the two of us, I'm the only one who answers questions. Seriously, where have I ever dodged a question of yours in this thread? That said, sure I'll answer your questions as I've always done. But first, summarize my "weak" position if you will. I'd love to read your interpretation of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Let's walk this out a bit more. The bulk of your assets are in 1s and 0s on a computer, you access this through your debit cards and credit cards. All of that is logged and stored for analysis whenever it's deemed necessary. More and more of your bills are paid with automatic debits from your accounts, increasing your dependency upon being connected each passing day. So far you've never tripped any alarms or alerts at the state level because you live an otherwise normal life and abide by the laws of the land. You're not a killer, you're not a terrorist, you're not a kook plotting to blow someone up for whatever reason. You're Gatorman, US citizen, going about your day. Cut to 2016. Unless something mildly historic happens, the GOP (whom you seemingly don't like very much, go along with it if that's not entirely accurate for the sake of this example) is going to win the presidency. Now, imagine that they ran your WORST nightmare, doesn't matter who -- it could be W again -- and he won. Now the GOP is in power, controlling the senate, house and executive. Now imagine that the new president is every bit the bastard you fear he would become, he's overturning gay marriages, he's repealing the ACA, he's about to start WW3 by bombing Iran because he had a bad BM to start his morning -- I'm talking your absolute worst nightmare of a president. Still with me? Rightfully enraged by #45's new policies, you begin to exercise your right to free speech by donating money to the opposition party. The new president, as part of his scheme, wrote an executive order (classified top secret) that added "alerts" to all the watch lists of the surveillance apparatus. These alerts create a list of anyone who donates to the opposition party, or anyone who mentions going to a rally on the phone/email/text/social media. Even in jest. The moment you begin to move those 1s and 0s around in your bank account towards Elizabeth Warren's campaign, you're added to their watch list. Without needing a warrant, or without you having any knowledge they're doing so, the intelligence apparatus begins to go back through your entire history to see who you are. To look for ways to discredit you should they need to. Let's say this bastard of a president wants to take it one step further and freeze anyone's assets who pop up on the watch list (regardless of reason). So, your bank accounts are frozen (without warning), your mortgage payments, car payments, all your bills begin to mount up with no way to pay them. When you go to the bank to solve the problem, the bank tells you their hands are tied. The government doesn't have to tell them why they ordered your accounts frozen, that's classified. The bank has to comply and you're !@#$ed. No access to your money, no understanding of why this happened... all because you tried to voice an opposition opinion as is your right as a US citizen. All of this, right now, today, is legal and possible without a warrant or need for judicial oversight. Think about that. Without due process, the US Government can declare you a threat to national security (without having to prove anything more than a suspicion) and completely remove your democratic means of expressing yourself. This has always been possible on some scale, history is full of tyrants imprisoning innocents. But no tyrant has ever had the amount of control today's US Government is capable of. I said it earlier and you scoffed, but if information is power then what the government has today is absolute power. And that always leads to absolute control. While the idea of the above scenario seems unlikely to go that bad in a year's time, what happens 10 years from now? Twenty? Say it's 2035, it's been over two decades without a terrorist attack on US soil. ISIS / whoever is the boogeyman of the day has been defeated. But these policies are still on the books because the public has already considered them a fait accompli -- who's stopping the powers that be in 2035 from amending these laws and powers to suit their own political interests? Especially when they don't have to tell us (as the law is written today) that they've changed it at all? You'll read this and think it's paranoia, but I urge you to inform yourself on the realities of the world you're living in first. If you do, you'll see that everything I walked out in this scenario is legal and possible today. The only thing that has prevented it from happening are the people currently in power. How much faith in those elected representatives keeping to the straight and narrow without abusing what essentially is unlimited power over the individual do you actually have? Hasn't there been enough political malfeasance over your lifetime to make you at least a little suspicious or hesitant to willingly surrender your individual right to privacy and due process to a faceless, nameless government entity with zero oversight? You ask me for solutions and I have some. But not many. Why? Because this is an issue that isn't even being debated, it's difficult if not impossible to find a solution to something without understanding the full picture. Bits and pieces of that picture are now public but not the entire thing. We're not allowed to be fully aware of all the issues because our government doesn't think we're capable of making such choices for ourselves. And attitudes like the one you're demonstrating in this thread are exactly why they may ultimately be right. And once you absorb that... imagine what happens when it's not the US Government at the wheel of this kind of apparatus, but the Chinese/Russians/Iranians/Exxon/Apple/Google et al. If you don't think government is capable of overstepping their power and limits, how much faith do you have in corporations or criminal enterprises exerting the same type of restraint? That's another reason why this is such an important issue. We might be the first perhaps only government to have this kind of capability presently, but we certainly won't be the last. Weak! Like this. I've already explained that you can come up with some crazy end of freedom future where the government, Exxon and Google all gang up on me but the ridicilous part is they don't trust each other so why would "The State" as you say--acting as if the government is one thing when its really all divided up so many ways they can't work together at times--and big businesses ever do that? Sure, there is the potential to take over using technology, but there is all the potential for a military take over, but its not going to happen. Sorry, I'm just not buying it. He doesn't. Your opinion will concern me the day I start taking you seriously. That day is not today. And I'm betting it's not tomorrow either. Fine, then stop replying to my every post you retard. Hell, you bring me up in threads I don't even post in. Weirdo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 Weak! Like this. I've already explained that you can come up with some crazy end of freedom future where the government, Exxon and Google all gang up on me but the ridicilous part is they don't trust each other so why would "The State" as you say--acting as if the government is one thing when its really all divided up so many ways they can't work together at times--and big businesses ever do that? Sure, there is the potential to take over using technology, but there is all the potential for a military take over, but its not going to happen. Sorry, I'm just not buying it. You do realize that post, which was a direct answer to a question you posed to me, was an EXAMPLE of the worst case scenario you asked for. Worst case scenario being the key phrase. Details are important when you're trying to comprehend one's position. That does not count as summarizing my position, you just used my words (incorrectly) and offered none of your own words. So I'll ask again, maybe this time you'll answer: Please summarize for us my "weak" position on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Weak! Like this. I've already explained that you can come up with some crazy end of freedom future where the government, Exxon and Google all gang up on me but the ridicilous part is they don't trust each other so why would "The State" as you say--acting as if the government is one thing when its really all divided up so many ways they can't work together at times--and big businesses ever do that? Sure, there is the potential to take over using technology, but there is all the potential for a military take over, but its not going to happen. Sorry, I'm just not buying it. Fine, then stop replying to my every post you retard. Hell, you bring me up in threads I don't even post in. Weirdo! You keep saying that. What do you consider an executive order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Weak! Like this. I've already explained that you can come up with some crazy end of freedom future where the government, Exxon and Google all gang up on me but the ridicilous part is they don't trust each other so why would "The State" as you say--acting as if the government is one thing when its really all divided up so many ways they can't work together at times--and big businesses ever do that? Sure, there is the potential to take over using technology, but there is all the potential for a military take over, but its not going to happen. Sorry, I'm just not buying it. Fine, then stop replying to my every post you retard. Hell, you bring me up in threads I don't even post in. Weirdo! Your opinion may not concern me...but that doesn't mean I don't find it hilarious. Of the two of us, I'm the only one who answers questions. Seriously, where have I ever dodged a question of yours in this thread? You answer questions...he calls it "obfuscating with examples and details." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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