Kelly the Dog Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 We don't know what truly happened. All we have is speculation and rumor. All it needed to be was around a 20-23 delta T to see a weather induced psi drop that was suitable to cause the under-inflated ball condition. Here's a quick example. Outdoor temp during game: 51F = 283.71K =Tout Indoor temp when measuring balls: 74F = 296.48K = Tin Assume: Pb (ball psig) = 14.56 psi (atmosphere) Pi = Pb+12.5 (min psi of ball at time of weighing) = 27.06 psi Doing the maths: PV=nRT -> Pi/Tin = Po/Tout 27.06/296.48 = Po/283.71 Po=25.89 dP=1.17 P=12.5-1.17=11.23psi Common sense tells you if your scenario is what happened the investigation would be over the first day though. That is not what happened because there would be no way to show any wrongdoing. The fact this is still being investigated disproves that scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 If that turns out to be the case, then that might happen naturally and so it would be tough to blame the Pats* on that. Early reports, however, were that most Pats* balls were 2 psi below normal, which, if true, would mean tampering if the Colts balls were all still within the accepted range, don't you agree? Unless the Pats*, in addition to their own officials, get their own rules of physics, too. I will save you the trouble of posting that those initial reports were then followed by pro-Pats* leaks (Florio again, among others) claiming that most Pats* balls were barely under 12.5 psi. To borrow from St Doug, "obviously" we'll need to see what the facts turn out to be here before any conclusions can be made. Last report I saw was that 1 of the balls was around 2 psi under 12.5 while the others were all <1 psi under. In any case, we have no official word from the league at this time so it's all speculative. Common sense tells you if your scenario is what happened the investigation would be over the first day though. That is not what happened because there would be no way to show any wrongdoing. The fact this is still being investigated disproves that scenario. We are talking about the NFL here. When it comes to investigative work, pretty much all of what they do lacks common sense. As a scientific guy, I can vouch that mother nature could have caused the balls to become under-inflated without any shenanigans by the Patriots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Common sense tells you if your scenario is what happened the investigation would be over the first day though. That is not what happened because there would be no way to show any wrongdoing. The fact this is still being investigated disproves that scenario. Common sense could surely lead us away from nfl processes and decisions at how many major discussions this year? At this point, Id say common sense about nfl investigations is we won't know much, if anything, until (and maybe after) results come out as their behavior is pretty erratic and inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Last report I saw was that 1 of the balls was around 2 psi under 12.5 while the others were all <1 psi under. In any case, we have no official word from the league at this time so it's all speculative. We are talking about the NFL here. When it comes to investigative work, pretty much all of what they do lacks common sense. As a scientific guy, I can vouch that mother nature could have caused the balls to become under-inflated without any shenanigans by the Patriots. There are different levels of stupidity, as you know. The NFL does some incredibly stupid things. Their PR, at times, is seemingly horrible. But they are also the most successful league in the world. IMO, it's incredibly naive to just say "it's the NFL, so anything can happen." In certain kinds of botching, that is inarguably true. But in other kinds of things, like this one, you have to take a step back and think about what is going on. Yes, they could botch this entire investigation 100 different ways. What they are NOT going to do, however, is to start a two month long investigation, with ridiculous coverage, hiring an outside investigator, and enlist physics professors from Columbia to investigate something under your scenario. Because those guys would refute it in 30 seconds as easily as you laid it out. So that simply did not happen. Common sense could surely lead us away from nfl processes and decisions at how many major discussions this year? At this point, Id say common sense about nfl investigations is we won't know much, if anything, until (and maybe after) results come out as their behavior is pretty erratic and inconsistent. Of course, but see above. ^^ Edited February 23, 2015 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 What they're doing is something criminal defense lawyers have gotten quite good at recently--setting the proof bar so high that no one is ever guilty of anything. You have no understanding of the criminal process and the role of defense lawyers. Defense attorneys are not obligated to present a defense. The standard of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt is for the prosecution to prove in court. This inflate issue that has brought out the rabid and conspiratorial responses of Bills fans compared to fans at large is a testatment to the losing mentality associated with this historically bumbling franchise. The issue for me has little to do with right or wrong as it does with proportionality. While the enraged Buffalo fans are apopolectic regarding the possible tampering with balls by the Patriots there is little response regarding the inappropriate handling of balls in the Atlanta and Carolina game. http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings I said it before and I say it again making excuses why your team regularly losers and making excuses why other teams win is a sad display of a losing mentality associated with the home town fans. It is embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) There are different levels of stupidity, as you know. The NFL does some incredibly stupid things. Their PR, at times, is seemingly horrible. But they are also the most successful league in the world. IMO, it's incredibly naive to just say "it's the NFL, so anything can happen." In certain kinds of botching, that is inarguably true. But in other kinds of things, like this one, you have to take a step back and think about what is going on. Yes, they could botch this entire investigation 100 different ways. What they are NOT going to do, however, is to start a two month long investigation, with ridiculous coverage, hiring an outside investigator, and enlist physics professors from Columbia to investigate something under your scenario. Because those guys would refute it in 30 seconds as easily as you laid it out. So that simply did not happen. Of course, but see above. ^^ With all the leaks being bandied about, I could see an endless # of viable scenarios unfolding. Maybe the holdup isn't even Patriots related as you believe? Edited February 23, 2015 by Pneumonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 With all the leaks being bandied about, I could see an endless # of viable scenarios unfolding. Maybe the holdup isn't even Patriots related as you believe? It doesnt matter what the leaks are at all. It only matters what really happened. The NFL right now only knows for sure what the measurements were before the game and at halftime. That is what I am trying to say here and explain. IF those numbers were easily explained, or within 1 psi, or could be due to weather, or your reasonable scenario you gave, there would be no investigation. It would be over by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 It doesnt matter what the leaks are at all. It only matters what really happened. The NFL right now only knows for sure what the measurements were before the game and at halftime. That is what I am trying to say here and explain. IF those numbers were easily explained, or within 1 psi, or could be due to weather, or your reasonable scenario you gave, there would be no investigation. It would be over by now. We don't know what really happened though. It's ALL speculative! Your explanation as well as my possible scenario along with Belichicks and any other person who has voiced an opinion on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 1 or 2 PSI in some footballs. Countless threads, countless posts, countless wasted man hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 What they're doing is something criminal defense lawyers have gotten quite good at recently--setting the proof bar so high that no one is ever guilty of anything. You have no understanding of the criminal process and the role of defense lawyers. Defense attorneys are not obligated to present a defense. The standard of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt is for the prosecution to prove in court. This inflate issue that has brought out the rabid and conspiratorial responses of Bills fans compared to fans at large is a testatment to the losing mentality associated with this historically bumbling franchise. The issue for me has little to do with right or wrong as it does with proportionality. While the enraged Buffalo fans are apopolectic regarding the possible tampering with balls by the Patriots there is little response regarding the inappropriate handling of balls in the Atlanta and Carolina game. http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings I said it before and I say it again making excuses why your team regularly losers and making excuses why other teams win is a sad display of a losing mentality associated with the home town fans. It is embarrassing. Dude--I AM a lawyer, with an honors degree from a school in the Boston area whose first name starts with an H. I fully understand how the burden of proof works and how quite often the entire game is based on getting the standard set high or low. It's absolutely ridiculous that we're even comparing this to a legal matter and legal standard of proof issues, criminal or civil. This is a private organization, which can set its own rules and its own standards. If the League's officials say there was a problem, then that should be the end of it, none of this "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt crap" that is being flung by the Pats* and their apologists (I'm looking at you, Florio). They're clearly doing their best to set the proof bar as high as they can in order to wriggle out of this in the court of public opinion. Utter nonsense, which actually further convinces me that there is indeed something rotten in Denmark, else wise why all the spin? Time will tell on the facts--none of us knows what they are, but we'll find out hopefully soon, Pneumonic--on the science point, I seem to recall someone early on saying that to deflate 2 psi the temperature would need to go from something like 75 to minus 10. Were they correct? I also have read articles in which a Columbia professor was asked what he thought happened and he said tampering was the most likely culprit (I'm sure Kraft--a wealthy alum and donor--was not pleased). Same story from a a College of Staten Island prof. Shouldn't this be an eminently solvable problem from a science standpoint? Why the apparent disagreement? That makes little sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 The New England Patriots....still the best team in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 The New England Patriots*....still the best cheating team in the league. fixed it for you We don't know what truly happened. All we have is speculation and rumor. All it needed to be was around a 20-23 delta T to see a weather induced psi drop that was suitable to cause the under-inflated ball condition. Here's a quick example. Outdoor temp during game: 51F = 283.71K =Tout Indoor temp when measuring balls: 74F = 296.48K = Tin Assume: Pb (ball psig) = 14.56 psi (atmosphere) Pi = Pb+12.5 (min psi of ball at time of weighing) = 27.06 psi Doing the maths: PV=nRT -> Pi/Tin = Po/Tout 27.06/296.48 = Po/283.71 Po=25.89 dP=1.17 P=12.5-1.17=11.23psi no no no all you have to do is apply e=mc2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Dude--I AM a lawyer, with an honors degree from a school in the Boston area whose first name starts with an H. I fully understand how the burden of proof works and how quite often the entire game is based on getting the standard set high or low. It's absolutely ridiculous that we're even comparing this to a legal matter and legal standard of proof issues, criminal or civil. This is a private organization, which can set its own rules and its own standards. If the League's officials say there was a problem, then that should be the end of it, none of this "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt crap" that is being flung by the Pats* and their apologists (I'm looking at you, Florio). They're clearly doing their best to set the proof bar as high as they can in order to wriggle out of this in the court of public opinion. Utter nonsense, which actually further convinces me that there is indeed something rotten in Denmark, else wise why all the spin? Time will tell on the facts--none of us knows what they are, but we'll find out hopefully soon, As an honor role law graduate then surely you understand that it is important to wait for the facts of this case to be determined before you make your conclusions. The investigation may be taking longer than you want but so be it. You are drawing conclusions before you even know what happened and who was involved. As you noted the NFL is a private organization and they can set their own standard. That is understood. What the NFL learned from the Ray Rice case is that expediency and sloppy work result in poor results. You want a quicker finding to suit your already establlished prejudice. It doesn't work that way. Even in a quasi-legal setting the process takes more time than you are willing to allow for. This football inflation issue has been blown out of proportion. What happens if it is determined that someone deliberately lowered PSI level? Do you want the Pats to forfeit their game with the Colts? What if it is learned that other teams have over-inflated or under-inflated to suit their preferences? Then what do you do? As a lawyer with honors you certainly know enough about the law that their are levels of infractions. If the Pats crossed the line then there should be consequences just as there was a insignificant fine against the Falcons for improperly handling the footballs in their game against Carolina. The issue for me is about the degree of the act (if that is what it is) and proportionality in the response. On this issue I find that those who are aligned with your position are totally unbalanced with their responses. This frenzied reaction to what I consider to be an inconsequential act (it anything happened) is more telling than what actually did happen. Edited February 23, 2015 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Dude--I AM a lawyer, with an honors degree from a school in the Boston area whose first name starts with an H. I fully understand how the burden of proof works and how quite often the entire game is based on getting the standard set high or low. It's absolutely ridiculous that we're even comparing this to a legal matter and legal standard of proof issues, criminal or civil. This is a private organization, which can set its own rules and its own standards. If the League's officials say there was a problem, then that should be the end of it, none of this "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt crap" that is being flung by the Pats* and their apologists (I'm looking at you, Florio). They're clearly doing their best to set the proof bar as high as they can in order to wriggle out of this in the court of public opinion. Utter nonsense, which actually further convinces me that there is indeed something rotten in Denmark, else wise why all the spin? Time will tell on the facts--none of us knows what they are, but we'll find out hopefully soon, Pneumonic--on the science point, I seem to recall someone early on saying that to deflate 2 psi the temperature would need to go from something like 75 to minus 10. Were they correct? I also have read articles in which a Columbia professor was asked what he thought happened and he said tampering was the most likely culprit (I'm sure Kraft--a wealthy alum and donor--was not pleased). Same story from a a College of Staten Island prof. Shouldn't this be an eminently solvable problem from a science standpoint? Why the apparent disagreement? That makes little sense to me. No offense, none of which you just wrote remotely implies it is the thoughts of a Harvard Law Graduate and active Lawyer, or any lawyer for that matter. For someone thats supposed to be so versed and gifted in law, you sure seem like to side step the fact there is no conclusive evidence by deflecting and stating that its a private business and the law somehow doesn't apply here. There isn't a lawyer on Earth that would support the statement you just wrote about "this is a private organization" and the league can basically do what it wants because of that. I seriously doubt any lawyer would make the statements you just made. You don't think Private Corporations have to adhere to due process, business law, and corporate practices? Are you kidding? The funniest part is that you reference the NFL can set their own standards...of course they can as can any corporation...but that in NO WAY IN ANY COURT OF LAW means they can penalize individuals against those standards WITHOUT DIRECT EVIDENCE of the violation of those standards by the accused. If the NFL administers any penalty without evidence of direct tampering, they will have lawyers up their backsides in seconds. This is a multi billion corporation dealing with a multi billion organization in the Pats. Any penalty administered is going to negatively impact the Pats brand, its revenue, its value, and potentially its ability to compete (if the penalty caused a loss of draft picks or suspensions). And you want to state that because the NFL is a private corporation, they can just deliberately hurt the Pats revenue, value, brand and potentially its competitiveness WITHOUT "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt"? In what court of law does that make sense or hold up other than the make believe "court of public opinion"? The ironic part now is that you just mocked and claimed the Pats, Florio, etc are spinning the story...yet you are about to reply and try and spin the gibberish you just wrote to mean something other than the exact words you just wrote. Edited February 23, 2015 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 1 or 2 PSI in some footballs. Countless threads, countless posts, countless wasted man hours. countless posts by you saying the same thing in te same countless posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 No offense, none of which you just wrote remotely implies it is the thoughts of a Harvard Law Graduate and active Lawyer, or any lawyer for that matter. For someone thats supposed to be so versed and gifted in law, you sure seem like to side step the fact there is no conclusive evidence by deflecting and stating that its a private business and the law somehow doesn't apply here. There isn't a lawyer on Earth that would support the statement you just wrote about "this is a private organization" and the league can basically do what it wants because of that. I seriously doubt any lawyer would make the statements you just made. You don't think Private Corporations have to adhere to due process, business law, and corporate practices? Are you kidding? The funniest part is that you reference the NFL can set their own standards...of course they can as can any corporation...but that in NO WAY IN ANY COURT OF LAW means they can penalize individuals against those standards WITHOUT DIRECT EVIDENCE of the violation of those standards by the accused. If the NFL administers any penalty without evidence of direct tampering, they will have lawyers up their backsides in seconds. This is a multi billion corporation dealing with a multi billion organization in the Pats. Any penalty administered is going to negatively impact the Pats brand, its revenue, its value, and potentially its ability to compete (if the penalty caused a loss of draft picks or suspensions). And you want to state that because the NFL is a private corporation, they can just deliberately hurt the Pats revenue, value, brand and potentially its competitiveness WITHOUT "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt"? In what court of law does that make sense or hold up other than the make believe "court of public opinion"? The ironic part now is that you just mocked and claimed the Pats, Florio, etc are spinning the story...yet you are about to reply and try and spin the gibberish you just wrote to mean something other than the exact words you just wrote. This is a competition matter much like a penalty call would be. Do you want teams to be able to take the League to court over penalty calls? The league can set its own competition rules and the courts should stay the heck away from trying to administer them. All the Pats* defenders ball washing on this point is getting ridiculous. In the hypothetical I gave above (since none of us knows the facts here) all that's required is for a league official to have conducted those measurements and made those findings--case closed. The idea that the Pats* should be able to then go to court to demand more proof before league punishment is ridiculous. It's ideas like that that give lawyers a bad name in our sue happy society. While it's true that anyone can sue for anything in our country, a court should be very careful before setting a precedent of weighing in on essentially a private league's competition matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Pneumonic--on the science point, I seem to recall someone early on saying that to deflate 2 psi the temperature would need to go from something like 75 to minus 10. Were they correct? I also have read articles in which a Columbia professor was asked what he thought happened and he said tampering was the most likely culprit (I'm sure Kraft--a wealthy alum and donor--was not pleased). Same story from a a College of Staten Island prof. Shouldn't this be an eminently solvable problem from a science standpoint? Why the apparent disagreement? That makes little sense to me. To deflate -2psi would require a dP of 2 so solving math (as per previous equation) would result in outside temp (To) having to be 274.57K (or ~35F). If the balls did in fact measure 2 psi less then I don't see how the weather alone (IIRC the coldest the temp dropped too was 41F) could account for such a psi drop. However, we also had atmospheric drop and a wet leather ball which, would very likely account for added deflation #'s. no no no all you have to do is apply e=mc2 Don't get ahead of the game, now. We'll take that up next year in grade 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) This is a competition matter much like a penalty call would be. Do you want teams to be able to take the League to court over penalty calls? The league can set its own competition rules and the courts should stay the heck away from trying to administer them. All the Pats* defenders ball washing on this point is getting ridiculous. In the hypothetical I gave above (since none of us knows the facts here) all that's required is for a league official to have conducted those measurements and made those findings--case closed. The idea that the Pats* should be able to then go to court to demand more proof before league punishment is ridiculous. It's ideas like that that give lawyers a bad name in our sue happy society. While it's true that anyone can sue for anything in our country, a court should be very careful before setting a precedent of weighing in on essentially a private league's competition matter. As you acknowledged none of us knows the facts here. That is the point. Yet so many people have an unshakeable view of what happened before knowing what happened and who is involved. An investigation led by a highly respected attorney is on going. It is not an adversarial investigation because the organization that is under investigation is fully cooperating. Everyone who needs to be questioned is being questioned. No one is refusing to be interviewed. All tapes that are relevant are beng offered and are being examined. What more do you want? You represent the majority view of the posters. The view that has an undercurrent theme that the league is treating the Patriot organization more favorably than it would other organizations. My view is the opposite in that they get more scrutiny than other organizations because they are so successful. Because of the intensity of feelings of a loser and jeaolous fan base towards the most successful franchise in modern history little infractions are portrayed to be bigger and more meaningful than they are. There is no other fan base that is so rabidly consumed than this fan base. That in itself is embarrasing. There was little attention paid to other teams that mishandled balls and were subsequently punished by the league with a small fine. Because New England is such a prominent team a minor infraction (if that) is portrayed as if the lottery has been rigged. Repeating what I said in my other posts on this topic the revealling thing about this issue is the lack of proportionality in responses to what in reality is a very trivial matter. Note: I wasn't trying to be snide regarding your impressive achievements in law school and in your practice. You and your family have a right to be proud of what you have accomplished and respect the hard work you put in to get to where you are at. However, on this issue your thinking is sloppy and less than meticulous. Edited February 23, 2015 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) The attached link is a Washington Post article on a story regarding the Wells investigation. At this point (prior to the report) I'm not prematurely making assumptions as the conspiracy and anti-Pat crowd has a tendency to do. As I have often stated let the investigative process run its course and then make a reasoned judgment. When all and said and done Alphadog from the start has had the most reasoned and mature response on this issue. There are participants who should apologize to him for their hostility toward him and his measured responses. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/deflategate-and-what-it-amounted-to-remains-an-open-question/2015/02/23/e01311dc-b9f1-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html Edited February 24, 2015 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The attached is a Washington Post article on a story regarding the Wells investigation. I'm not making hyperbolic assumptions as the conspiracy and anti-Pat crowd has a tendency to do.As I have often stated let the investigative process run its course and then make a reasoned judgment. When all and said and done [b[Alphadog[/b] from the start has had the most reasoned and mature response on this issue. There are participants who should apologize to him for their hostility toward him and his measured responses. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/deflategate-and-what-it-amounted-to-remains-an-open-question/2015/02/23/e01311dc-b9f1-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html reasoned and mature? Just where do you think you are? this is a simple issue. Were these game balls handled in the proper manner? Yes or No. There are too many stories out there claiming improper handling. This is not about the Putrids winning THAT game, but the overall approach on how the balls met NFL gametime standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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