Do We Really Want a Republican President?

[Alaska Darin]

since your talent and labor were clearly exploited, it would seem logical that you would be in favor of higher minimum wages and a more equitable division of the great wealth of this nation. but no, you seem to choose the hazing mentality so common of schoolboys. "i was hazed (and it sucked) but the next group is gonna get theirs."

Another example of "seeing what you want because it suites your ridiculous political notions". When I was earning minimum wage, I was doing jobs that literally any able bodied person on the planet could do. I was worth what they paid me because even if I was the very best at what I did (and I was), I could be replaced tomorrow with almost nothing but a blip on the bottom line. The fact that you don't understand the basics of economics or how the world really works is beyond pathetic.

it's apparently the same psychology we see in some of the poorest states (especially the south) that support regimes that have economic policies in direct conflict of their own economic interests. at least in those cases there are political shenanigans that help explain some of the paradox.

Which political party benefits directly from keeping people poor? You're a !@#$ing parody.

[TakeYouToTasker]

since your talent and labor were clearly exploited, it would seem logical that you would be in favor of higher minimum wages and a more equitable division of the great wealth of this nation. but no, you seem to choose the hazing mentality so common of schoolboys. "i was hazed (and it sucked) but the next group is gonna get theirs."

 

it's apparently the same psychology we see in some of the poorest states (especially the south) that support regimes that have economic policies in direct conflict of their own economic interests. at least in those cases there are political shenanigans that help explain some of the paradox.

That is, no hyperbole, a nearly uniform adoption of European communist literature . You've practically quoted Marx.

[birdog1960]

Another example of "seeing what you want because it suites your ridiculous political notions". When I was earning minimum wage, I was doing jobs that literally any able bodied person on the planet could do. I was worth what they paid me because even if I was the very best at what I did (and I was), I could be replaced tomorrow with almost nothing but a blip on the bottom line. The fact that you don't understand the basics of economics or how the world really works is beyond pathetic.

 

 

ya know those fires in third world factories where people burn to death because the managers lock them in? those are a result of unencumbered, uncontrolled, unregulated labor economics. it's not been present in the us since the days of child labor, the pinkerton thugs and sweatshops. i understand enough about economics not to believe in pure free markets existence or desirability. we've evolved a great deal from the bad old days but there's plenty of room for improvement. Edited November 17, 2014 by birdog1960

[DC Tom]

ya know those fires in third world factories where people burn to death because the managers lock them in? those are a result of unencumbered, uncontrolled, unregulated labor economics. it's not been present in the us since the days of child labor, the pinkerton thugs and sweatshops. i understand enough about economics not to believe in pure free markets existence or desirability. we've evolved a great from the bad old days but there's plenty of room for improvement.

 

Got that, Darin? Your military service was no different from dying in a horrible fire in the Garment District.

 

 

[TakeYouToTasker]

ya know those fires in third world factories where people burn to death because the managers lock them in? those are a result of unencumbered, uncontrolled, unregulated labor economics. it's not been present in the us since the days of child labor, the pinkerton thugs and sweatshops. i understand enough about economics not to believe in pure free markets existence or desirability. we've evolved a great deal from the bad old days but there's plenty of room for improvement.

Actually, that's the direct result of a government empowered to act outside of the principals of liberty.

[birdog1960]

Got that, Darin? Your military service was no different from dying in a horrible fire in the Garment District.

 

 

you could at least attempt to disguise your strawmen.

 

only 122 years ago: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carnegie/peopleevents/pande04.html

Edited November 17, 2014 by birdog1960

[DC Tom]

you could at least attempt to disguise your strawmen.

 

only 122 years ago: http://www.pbs.org/w...ts/pande04.html

 

You took Darin's service history and extrapolated it to deadly sweatshop conditions, and it's somehow MY strawman?

[birdog1960]

You took Darin's service history and extrapolated it to deadly sweatshop conditions, and it's somehow MY strawman?

i took darin's criticism of my economic understanding and his assertion of a free market in that regard and "how the world really works" and responded with evidence that argues otherwise.

 

how are you going to celebrate your 50.000th post? perhaps lance that rosette of hemorrhoids you've earned composing them?

Edited November 17, 2014 by birdog1960

[Rob's House]

since your talent and labor were clearly exploited, it would seem logical that you would be in favor of higher minimum wages and a more equitable division of the great wealth of this nation. but no, you seem to choose the hazing mentality so common of schoolboys. "i was hazed (and it sucked) but the next group is gonna get theirs."

 

it's apparently the same psychology we see in some of the poorest states (especially the south) that support regimes that have economic policies in direct conflict of their own economic interests. at least in those cases there are political shenanigans that help explain some of the paradox.

 

The nation doesn't have great wealth. People living within this nation do. You make it seem as though the nation produced it and some people just got to have more than others. The only wealth the nation has is that which it extorts from the citizens. You may be fine with that, but this is factually what's taking place.

 

ya know those fires in third world factories where people burn to death because the managers lock them in? those are a result of unencumbered, uncontrolled, unregulated labor economics. it's not been present in the us since the days of child labor, the pinkerton thugs and sweatshops. i understand enough about economics not to believe in pure free markets existence or desirability. we've evolved a great deal from the bad old days but there's plenty of room for improvement.

you could at least attempt to disguise your strawmen.

 

only 122 years ago: http://www.pbs.org/w...ts/pande04.html

 

You just in one post claimed that the alternative to Marxism is workers dying in sweatshops, and in the very next post accuse someone else of building a straw man. That's classic.

[FireChan]

since your talent and labor were clearly exploited, it would seem logical that you would be in favor of higher minimum wages and a more equitable division of the great wealth of this nation. but no, you seem to choose the hazing mentality so common of schoolboys. "i was hazed (and it sucked) but the next group is gonna get theirs."

 

it's apparently the same psychology we see in some of the poorest states (especially the south) that support regimes that have economic policies in direct conflict of their own economic interests. at least in those cases there are political shenanigans that help explain some of the paradox.

 

These people don't need a high minimum wage to survive. They want a higher minimum wage, because they want luxuries. That's an attempt at circumventing ambition. It's cheating the system, and it doesn't work.

 

You can live on the minimum wage that exists today. You want a fancy car? Work harder, get a second job or be better at your first and make more money. Period. Anything else is fantasy land garbage.

 

How would the number of cardiovascular surgeons change if they made less money?

[Azalin]

 

if you want to argue this other point, then i would reply that many 1st world nations pay unskilled workers more than the us on avg. these include australia, canada, switzerland and france (these are those that i recall off the top of my head).

 

 

screw what those other countries do. we don't operate economically by paying some arbitrary amount to people with no freaking skills and proclaiming it a 'living wage'. I don't know about you, but I've always subscribed to a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. if you want to earn more, take some damned responsibility and make yourself worth more. the concept is about as simple as you can get, and guess what - it works.

 

I remember my "living wage" when I first joined the military. I was taking home $162 every two weeks. I was making significantly more money before I signed up working 60+ hours a week at a couple of minimum wage jobs. I worked a part time job for pretty much the first decade of my military career because we just couldn't get ahead on what we were bringing home from our 40+ hour military gigs. There were times (especially when we lived in California) where we were eligible for food stamps and/or WIC.

 

I was the network/IT guy who didn't have a PC at home because he couldn't afford one. Didn't go out to eat or to movies because we couldn't afford such luxuries. Didn't have a cell phone until I left the military and my first employer paid for mine every month. Didn't have anything more than basic cable. Drove cheap, dependable cars for at least a decade at a time because that's what we could afford. Literally spent every non-sleeping moment either working or watching my kids so my wife could work full time and go to school to get ahead.

 

You'll forgive me for not giving a flying **** about people who aren't willing to sacrifice to get ahead and want everything handed to them. You can forget debating it because I've been seeing it every single day of my life. The vast majority of "poor" people live lives much better than my parents (or I) did growing up. They don't worry about where they're going to live or whether there's going to be food because that **** is taken care of by Uncle Sugar and there's absolutely no pressure to do anything about their situations, despite the fact that it's easier now than it has ever been.

 

Take your hyperbole and bull **** and try and sell it somewhere else. Those of us who've lived it and work with it every day know better. You should be ashamed of yourselves because you're part of the problem, not part of the solution. Everyone doesn't get a !@#$ing trophy.

 

well said. it would be nice if things were always easy, but things just don't always work that way. you do what you need to do, and that's all there is to it. most of us here have no problem with funding a 'safety net' for those that truly need help, but this idea of government-imposed living wages is bullcrap.

 

 

since your talent and labor were clearly exploited, it would seem logical that you would be in favor of higher minimum wages and a more equitable division of the great wealth of this nation. but no, you seem to choose the hazing mentality so common of schoolboys. "i was hazed (and it sucked) but the next group is gonna get theirs."

 

 

you completely miss the entire point he was trying to make. he wasn't 'clearly exploited'.....what kind of bubble have you lived in all your life to prevent you from seeing what most people have to go through? you have apparently had everything handed to you, and expect everyone else to receive the same, crying 'oppression' or 'exploitation' whenever they don't. you do AD a disservice by not recognizing the effort he put forth in order to make a good life for himself, and further insult him by implying he was a victim of exploitation by working his @ss off to provide a decent life for his family.

 

Why do you think I call it ZombieMart? People don't walk in there...they aimlessly shamble. I feel like I'm on the set of a George Romero film on the rare occasions I go into one.

 

 

'what's that? brains? oh, you want aisle twelve.'

 

they could make a fortune.

 

but some would call that exploitation.

[Nanker]

Yes, move to Australia where a 12 oz. glass of beer in a run-of-the-mill pub is $7.00 and a six pack is about $30.00. Switzerland has no socialized medicine.

[birdog1960]

screw what those other countries do. we don't operate economically by paying some arbitrary amount to people with no freaking skills and proclaiming it a 'living wage'. I don't know about you, but I've always subscribed to a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. if you want to earn more, take some damned responsibility and make yourself worth more. the concept is about as simple as you can get, and guess what - it works.

 

 

 

well said. it would be nice if things were always easy, but things just don't always work that way. you do what you need to do, and that's all there is to it. most of us here have no problem with funding a 'safety net' for those that truly need help, but this idea of government-imposed living wages is bullcrap.

 

so your argument is that it's not the way we do it because, well, it's not the way we do it. and look who is talking about fairness. i thought fairness didn't matter.

 

btw, it works for some people for a great many it doesn't. and other system also work, sometimes for a greater proportion of the populace.

 

oh, and i didn't live in a bubble. i worked extremely hard for what i've got and took risks. but then again, i had many advantages: good genes, good parenting, good schools, solid middle class home, plenty of excellent role models in family and friends…i never said life was meant to be easy. i'm saying that 2 or 3 jobs shouldn't be required to provide necessities. it's not an all or nothing stance, unlike yours.

 

Yes, move to Australia where a 12 oz. glass of beer in a run-of-the-mill pub is $7.00 and a six pack is about $30.00. Switzerland has no socialized medicine.

wait, you mean you can't have one without the other? so they don't have socialized medicine. they do have a living wage. and…? Edited November 17, 2014 by birdog1960

[Azalin]

 

oh, and i didn't live in a bubble. i worked extremely hard for what i've got and took risks. but then again, i had many advantages: good genes, good parenting, good schools, solid middle class home, plenty of excellent role models in family and friends…i never said life was meant to be easy. i'm saying that 2 or 3 jobs shouldn't be required to provide necessities. it's not an all or nothing stance, unlike yours.

 

 

you make my point for me. you admit that despite any advantages you may have had (good genes, good parents, solid middle class home), you worked extremely hard and took risks to obtain the position in life that you now enjoy. all I'm trying to say is that those things - hard work, risks, putting forth effort - work for everyone. some may have more luck early on, others may fail several times before getting there, but that is the key to making a good life for yourself, and it works for everyone.

[birdog1960]

you make my point for me. you admit that despite any advantages you may have had (good genes, good parents, solid middle class home), you worked extremely hard and took risks to obtain the position in life that you now enjoy. all I'm trying to say is that those things - hard work, risks, putting forth effort - work for everyone. some may have more luck early on, others may fail several times before getting there, but that is the key to making a good life for yourself, and it works for everyone.

um, no it doesn't. nice story, simply untrue.

[Azalin]

um, no it doesn't. nice story, simply untrue.

 

sure it does. there are plently of people who have had none of the advantages that you did, who do quite well for themselves. if you don't believe me, then just take a look around. trust me - they're there.

[Alaska Darin]

um, no it doesn't. nice story, simply untrue.

You're an idiot.

[birdog1960]

You're an idiot.

you've never met anyone that's done nearly all the right things yet has struggled mightily in a financial sense? oh wait...

 

sure it does. there are plently of people who have had none of the advantages that you did, who do quite well for themselves. if you don't believe me, then just take a look around. trust me - they're there.

and there are many more that constantly struggle, a good number of whom are veterans. wanna know who they are? look at who uses payday loans and for profit college loans. this is eploitation of desperate people, plain and simple.

[Azalin]

and there are many more that constantly struggle, a good number of whom are veterans. wanna know who they are? look at who uses payday loans and for profit college loans. this is eploitation of desperate people, plain and simple.

 

 

most people find themselves struggling to get by at one point or another. that's nothing new. it would be nice if it weren't the case, but it would also be nice if we were all awarded a million dollars upon our birth. there is no way a society, a government, or any other entity can remove strife from our lives. some will have little, some will have a lot, and it will always seem unfair that some have a more difficult time than others. instead of propping them up as victims, claiming that they're being exploited, or advocating an arbitrary dollar figure that they should be given, encourage them to continue their efforts, and to live within their means until they achieve a higher degree of success.

 

and for the record, I tend to agree with you regarding payday loans, but that's a different issue altogether.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Azalin

[birdog1960]

most people find themselves struggling to get by at one point or another. that's nothing new. it would be nice if it weren't the case, but it would also be nice if we were all awarded a million dollars upon our birth. there is no way a society, a government, or any other entity can remove strife from our lives. some will have little, some will have a lot, and it will always seem unfair that some have a more difficult time than others. instead of propping them up as victims, claiming that they're being exploited, or advocating an arbitrary dollar figure that they should be given, encourage them to continue their efforts, and to live within their means until they achieve a higher degree of success.

 

and for the record, I tend to agree with you regarding payday loans, but that's a different issue altogether.

why is it so unconsciounable to you to try a model that guarantees livable wages for unskilled labor? is it that awful label "marxism"? are the countries i cited as examples marxist? no, they just appear to look out more for the least of their societies. they seem to recognize that we still need manual, unskilled work and that it has value. yes, there are lazy, ungrateful, parasites among the poor (and the rich). disincentivize them to be this way but make it highly probable that those who want to work share in the overall success of the country. and the payday loan thing is emblematic of the polar opposite thought process. it's ok to exploit those already down and out. it's not all that difficult to rid the country of these scumbags. it just requires the will. it's not there because of the mindsets i just described.