EJ vs Orton (stat comparison)

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I'm ignoring all troll responses WRT KO compared to EJ

 

please move on

 

It has been stated a number of times. The Bills have a LONG way to go before we should even think of playoffs.

The Bills need to get past the Putrids. When they can do that I will be much more confident.

[MRW]

Frankly, it's unlikely there will be a better veteran option than Kyle Orton in the off season, and drafting a guy in the 2nd round isn't any guarantee that he'll be better than KO or EJ... so as of right now I have no problems going into next season with KO and EJ battling it out for the starting role.

Gotta quibble with this a bit, if Orton does anything in the second half of the year close to what he did in the second quarter, there is no competition whatsoever. I hope EJ learns a lot and can turn his career around, but the difference with Orton is staggering.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

EJ was not close to what Orton was in college. EJ was surrounded by ridiculous talent and had a great defense. EJ was incapable of carrying his team and Jimbo relied on him to not turn the ball over and that's it. Orton carried his college team despite and playing with zero NFL talent but had an off the charts senior year playing through injuries. And that's when the Big 10 was good.

 

I get that EJ is young and QBs can develop later in their careers (rare at best). However EJ was never a great QB in college. He was good and that's all. He wasn't Jameis, Tebow, Cam, Dak, VY or JF who single handedly made ridiculous plays to keep their teams in games. He never displayed the skills to win a football game by himself, not once. So why is he all of a suddens going to "develop" in the NFL? Because he's big? Good looking and nice? He ran a fast 40 (despite being stiff with no fluidity)? Because he throws a tight spiral? He's always been inaccurate and unable to read defenses and go through his progressions. Those two attributes are more important than anything else and EJ simply doesn't have them.

 

Just because he does not have them does not mean he cannot learn. Most people continue to learn after they leave college to believe EJ cannot do the same is ridiculous.

 

The belief by some that EJ career is over discounts the fact that people(as long as they are motivated) continue to grow and learn as they age. My hope is that EJ is motivated.

 

BillsFan-4-Ever, others and I have discussed what is best for the team(at the QB position) and we may have disagreed; however, I have never said EJ was not capable of learning. In fact, that was the whole reason I wanted Orton(or any veteran) to start.

Edited October 29, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[Wraith]

Aaron Rodgers and Ben Roethlisberger are always at the top of the league in sacks. Sometimes that's the trade off for keeping passes to wide receivers as an option in your arsenal.

 

This is a fine example of why stats are necessary, despite some folks claims that all they need is their eyes. The eyes lie. Kyle Orton doesn't take more sacks than EJ Manuel because he targets wide receivers more! Orton targets wide receivers less than Manuel does!

 

Manuel has 127 pass attempts this season, of which 28.3% went to running backs, 11.0% went to tight ends, and 60.6% went to wide receivers.

 

Orton has 136 pass attempts this season, of which 25.0% went to running backs, 19.9% went to tight ends, and 55.1% went to wide receivers.

[C.Biscuit97]

You can start by punching holes in what I said. Are you telling me that EJ wasn't surrounded by ridiculous amounts of talent? There were 10 (not including him) guys drafted his senior year and 7 (all from different positions) more the following year. That's means he played with 17 players who were drafted. Specific enough?

 

Never said EJ couldn't complete a pass but EJ was not one of the most important football players on that team and proved it by never providing a performance that all of the greats and some of the "goods" have.

 

The majority of the guys drafted with him were on defense.

[Tyrod's Tailor]

This is a fine example of why stats are necessary, despite some folks claims that all they need is their eyes. The eyes lie. Kyle Orton doesn't take more sacks than EJ Manuel because he targets wide receivers more! Orton targets wide receivers less than Manuel does!

 

Manuel has 127 pass attempts this season, of which 28.3% went to running backs, 11.0% went to tight ends, and 60.6% went to wide receivers.

 

Orton has 136 pass attempts this season, of which 25.0% went to running backs, 19.9% went to tight ends, and 55.1% went to wide receivers.

 

Uh huh, and how about completion % by each position? I seem to remember EJ going 7/21 to WR against San Diego.

 

Here's a stat. Orton has thrown 5 TDs in his last 5 quarters. EJ threw 5 TDs in four games.

Edited October 29, 2014 by billsfaninmanhattan

[eball]

This is a fine example of why stats are necessary, despite some folks claims that all they need is their eyes. The eyes lie. Kyle Orton doesn't take more sacks than EJ Manuel because he targets wide receivers more! Orton targets wide receivers less than Manuel does!

 

Manuel has 127 pass attempts this season, of which 28.3% went to running backs, 11.0% went to tight ends, and 60.6% went to wide receivers.

 

Orton has 136 pass attempts this season, of which 25.0% went to running backs, 19.9% went to tight ends, and 55.1% went to wide receivers.

 

With Orton behind center Chandler has become (a big) part of the offense again. The man gets open over the middle.

[Wraith]

Uh huh, and how about completion % by each position? I seem to remember EJ going 7/21 to WR against San Diego.

 

That's been my whole point this entire thread.

 

The difference between Orton and Manuel boils to two things only: 1) Orton has been more accurate 2) Manuel has been better at avoiding the sacks. Orton's accuracy so far appears to have outweighed his increased propensity for taking the sack. Everything else is either over thinking things or applying a bias.

[C.Biscuit97]

Uh huh, and how about completion % by each position? I seem to remember EJ going 7/21 to WR against San Diego.

 

Here's a stat. Orton has thrown 5 TDs in his last 5 quarters. EJ threw 5 TDs in four games.

 

Yup and that was the best game Orton played, even though he didn't get to the mythical 300 yard mark! But we scored 17, 22, and 17 in the previous starts. Hopefully, it's the start of something great. But let's not pretend like our offense was lighting it up before Sunday under Orton.

[Wraith]

Here's a stat. Orton has thrown 5 TDs in his last 5 quarters. EJ threw 5 TDs in four games.

What does this have to due with Orton's sack rate being related to (or not being related to) his desire to hold on to the ball to target the wide receivers down field?

[Tyrod's Tailor]

Yup and that was the best game Orton played, even though he didn't get to the mythical 300 yard mark! But we scored 17, 22, and 17 in the previous starts. Hopefully, it's the start of something great. But let's not pretend like our offense was lighting it up before Sunday under Orton.

 

agreed, but can you ever imagine EJ throwing 4 tds in a game? I really can't.

[Alaska Darin]

agreed, but can you ever imagine EJ throwing 4 tds in a game? I really can't.

Sure. With the BILLS on the losing end of a 56-31 score.

[Tyrod's Tailor]

What does this have to due with Orton's sack rate being related to (or not being related to) his desire to hold on to the ball to target the wide receivers down field?

 

It has a lot to do with scoring points, which is the job of the quarterback.

[ProcessAccepted]

Just because he does not have them does not mean he cannot learn. Most people continue to learn after they leave college to believe EJ cannot do the same is ridiculous.

 

The belief by some that EJ career is over discounts the fact that people(as long as they are motivated) continue to grow and learn as they age. My hope is that EJ is motivated.

 

BillsFan-4-Ever, others and I have discussed what is best for the team(at the QB position) and we may have disagreed; however, I have never said EJ was not capable of learning. In fact, that was the whole reason I wanted Orton(or any veteran) to start.

 

The problem as I see it is his accuracy. I just don't think you can learn accuracy. I'm rooting for him but I'm not hopeful...

[Alaska Darin]

The problem as I see it is his accuracy. I just don't think you can learn accuracy. I'm rooting for him but I'm not hopeful...

I agree. He is what he is. I'll be stunned if he's ever anything more than a tantalizing backup.

[ricojes]

The problem as I see it is his accuracy. I just don't think you can learn accuracy. I'm rooting for him but I'm not hopeful...

Ok, I see this posted a lot. Why can't you teach accuracy in football?

 

For example, a wild pitcher can gain more control by correcting his mechanics. A golfer can definitely improve accuracy, by studying and making adjustments to his swing. This can applied to basketball, hockey, darts, horseshoe's...whatever sport. But most here state, you can't teach a QB to be more accurate. Why is that?

Edited October 29, 2014 by ricojes

[Wraith]

It has a lot to do with scoring points, which is the job of the quarterback.

No interest in understanding why one QB has been better at producing points than the other? Just "points! points!". Alright then.

[Alaska Darin]

Ok, I see this posted a lot. Why can't you teach accuracy?

 

For example, a wild pitcher can gain more control by correcting his mechanics. A golfer can definitely improve accuracy, by studying and making adjustments to his swing. This can applied to basketball, hockey, darts, horseshoe's...whatever sport. But most here state, you can't teach accuracy. Why is that?

I think it can be coached but there hasn't been marked improvement since his first days as a college starter so why should we expect it?

[Dorkington]

I'm ignoring all troll responses WRT KO compared to EJ

 

please move on

 

For those asking for details on longer throws (from ESPN*):

 

EJ Manuel:

Passes thrown 11-20 yards - 10/27, 37%, 211 yards, 7.82 ypa, 0 TD, 1 INT, 50.1 RAT

Passes thrown 21-30 yards - 2/10, 20%, 50 yards, 5.0 ypa, 0 TD, 1 INT, 8.3 RAT

Passes thrown 31-40 yards - 0/1, 0%, 0 yards, 0 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 39.6 RAT

Passes thrown 41+ yards - 1/2, 50%, 80 yards, 40 ypa, 1 TD, 0 INT, 135.4 RAT

 

Passes thrown 11+ yards - 13/40, 32.5%, 341 yards, 8.52 ypa, 1 TD, 2 INT, 52.2 RAT

Passes thrown 21+ yards - 3/13, 23.1%, 130 yards, 10 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT, 62.3 RAT

 

Kyle Orton:

Passes thrown 11-20 yards - 19/31, 61.3%, 323 yards, 10.42 ypa, 2 TD, 2 INT, 91.2 RAT

Passes thrown 21-30 yards - 4/7, 57.1%, 109 yards, 15.57 ypa, 1 TD, 0 INT, 141.4 RAT

Passes thrown 31-40 yards - 1/3, 33.3%, 42 yards, 14 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 81.9 RAT

Passes thrown 41+ yards - 0/1, 0%, 0 yards, 0 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 39.6 RAT

 

Passes thrown 11+ yards - 24/42, 57.1%, 474 yards, 11.29 ypa, 3 TD, 2 INT, 100.7 RAT

Passes thrown 21+ yards - 5/11, 45.4%, 151 yards, 13.72 ypa, 1 TD, 0 INT, 122.3 RAT

 

 

* had to calculate the 11+, and 21+ stats myself, so there may be errors, feel free to correct.

Red Zone:

 

EJ Manuel:

Passing: 7/16, 43.8%, 51 yards, 3.19 ypa, 4 TD, 1 INT, 0 SCK, 65.4 RAT

Rushing: 5 carries, 15 yards, 3 ypc, 1 TD

 

Kyle Orton

Passing: 9/14, 64.3%, 51 yards, 3.64 ypa, 6 TD, 0 INT, 3 SCK, 110.4 RAT

Rushing: 1 carry, 0 yards, 0 ypc, 0 TD

 

(edit: added rushing, since that's one of EJ's strong suits, just to be "fair")

 

Yeah, because facts = trolling.

 

Sit down, give it up.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

I think it can be coached but there hasn't been marked improvement since his first days as a college starter so why should we expect it?

Because as a college starter ... and as a first round draftee he had to focus on other things. Now he really can focus much more of his energies on that if he wishes.