The Pegulas FIRST move as owners has already taken place

[GunnerBill]

I think it crystalises the main disagreement. There is also a disagreement about the extent that "involved" should mean "meddling." i for instance don't think he should have any say whatsoever on who plays Quarterback, who is the backup Quarterback or which college free agent QB is on the practice squad. That is the GM's call not the CEO's. He needs to select the right GM, outline the team's strategy and budget and then let that GM build the roster within those parameters. The only place where he should have an "active" right to veto is something giving up future draft picks that could ultimately hurt the next GM and Head Coach.... that doesn't mean he should always veto in those circumstances and on Sammy let's wait and see... but he should have the power to veto in those circumstances if he feels it best for the team long term.

[TXBILLSFAN]

I think it crystalises the main disagreement. There is also a disagreement about the extent that "involved" should mean "meddling." i for instance don't think he should have any say whatsoever on who plays Quarterback, who is the backup Quarterback or which college free agent QB is on the practice squad. That is the GM's call not the CEO's. He needs to select the right GM, outline the team's strategy and budget and then let that GM build the roster within those parameters. The only place where he should have an "active" right to veto is something giving up future draft picks that could ultimately hurt the next GM and Head Coach.... that doesn't mean he should always veto in those circumstances and on Sammy let's wait and see... but he should have the power to veto in those circumstances if he feels it best for the team long term.

I think he should have approached Whaley and challenged him (maybe he did) on the offseason backup QB strategy. I think most fans were concerned about Lewis/Tuel and I wouldn't consider that "meddling" but ensuring the GM and HC were both 100% aligned. Again, this could have happened, but that, to me would be an area for him to get involved in.

 

 

 

Isn't France Ray Rice's agent?

Yes, France/Five Star represent Ray Rice. They have a pretty substantial challenge on that one !!

[GunnerBill]

I think he should have approached Whaley and challenged him (maybe he did) on the offseason backup QB strategy. I think most fans were concerned about Lewis/Tuel and I wouldn't consider that "meddling" but ensuring the GM and HC were both 100% aligned. Again, this could have happened, but that, to me would be an area for him to get involved in.

 

How do you know he didn't? And clearly when his GM and Head Coach were not aligned he did try and intervene.... even if (if indeed the row was about that) it all happened in public when it should have been behind closed doors and got a little heated.

[Gabe Northern]

The President of the Bills SHOULD be INVOLVED in football decisions ! Why is that so hard to fathom ? I'm not talking about being a scout or deciding on the draft board, but he damn well better be setting objectives and strategy, allocating resources and helping to create an operating plan for the team. If he isn't, he's not doing his job. To be clear, you can empower your employees to do their jobs, but you NEVER as a good executive disengage from them. Good executives set clear objectives, help set priorities, provide resources, remove barriers and hold people accountable.

 

I don't think there should be any debate on whether or not he's involved, he IS involved and should be involved.

 

To me, the debate centers around whether or not Brandon was involved in the football operations (and therefore responsible and accountable) for the time period PRIOR to January 2013.

 

Does anyone disagree ?

 

Russ Brandon was GM starting in 2009 and then became CEO in 2011. I think that he bears responsibility for the Peters fiasco, the T.O. signing, and other matters.

 

I don't want to speak for anyone else but I will anyway. You seem to be changing your criterion or question, when everyone on the other side of this argument is much more simple and consistent. What people mean about "not making football decisions" is simply this:

 

Russ Brandon doesn't ever say "draft this guy not that guy."

Russ Brandon doesn't ever tell Whaley don't make that trade.

When Doug Whaley asks him what he thinks about a player, or trade, or draft pick, Russ gives his opinion and Whaley takes that for exactly what it is, an opinion, and then makes the choice completely on his own with his staff of coaches and scouts.

 

That's it. He never ever makes final football decisions. Period.

 

It's very simple. He is involved in everything. He doesn't have the final say nor the culpability, except if you want to say he hired Whaley so he is responsible for all of the decisions that Whaley makes.

 

People say he's on the "business side" and then define "business side" so expansively that obvious indications of the huge influence he wields on football decisions is just chalked up as what someone on the "business side" does. It is infuriating.

[thebandit27]

Russ Brandon was GM starting in 2009 and then became CEO in 2011. I think that he bears responsibility for the Peters fiasco, the T.O. signing, and other matters.

 

 

 

People say he's on the "business side" and then define "business side" so expansively that obvious indications of the huge influence he wields on football decisions is just chalked up as what someone on the "business side" does. It is infuriating.

 

It is equally infuriating to see these completely incorrect words written.

[eball]

It is infuriating.

 

Describes your contributions to this thread perfectly.

 

Stayin'

[Kirby Jackson]

This whole topic really doesn't matter (despite how many times it appears). There are things that RB will be graded on (Whaley, Marrone, EJ, Watkins trade, revenue, sponsorship deals, stadium renovations, etc...). He is not so much responsible for the particular players as he is authorizing the use of future assets to obtain said players. His stamp is clearly on the organization now and the success or failure of these things will determine his future.

 

I for one believe that the Bills are in the best shape that they have been in in years. The team has talent, aggressive young football people and tons of cap space moving forward. We will know much more come January on not only RB but Whaley and Marrone as well.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[GunnerBill]

Russ Brandon was GM starting in 2009 and then became CEO in 2011. I think that he bears responsibility for the Peters fiasco, the T.O. signing, and other matters.

 

He was GM and technically the decisions made in his year as GM are on him (even if he delegated to Modrak and Guy his was the name on the door). However, they have nothing to do with his competence as a CEO and President. He became CEO in 2011 but until he was handed the keys in 2013 his influence over the football side of business was limited. Ralph was still meddling when it suited him and Littman was all over it. Since 2013 he has been on the field at all the practices and he has been up front in the draft room and everything else.... he also had at very least a major say in the GM and Head Coach decisions. All that is now on him as CEO... if his hires fail he fails.

[TXBILLSFAN]

 

 

How do you know he didn't? And clearly when his GM and Head Coach were not aligned he did try and intervene.... even if (if indeed the row was about that) it all happened in public when it should have been behind closed doors and got a little heated.

I don't know whether he did or didn't, that's why I said in my "maybe he did" and later "this could have happened"

[eball]

This whole topic really doesn't matter (despite how many times it appears). There are things that RB will be graded on (Whaley, Marrone, EJ, Watkins trade, revenue, sponsorship deals, stadium renovations, etc...). He is not so much responsible for the particular players as he is authorizing the use of future assets to obtain said players. His stamp is clearly on the organization now and the success or failure of these things will determine his future.

 

I for one believe that the Bills are in the best shape that they have been in in years. The team has talent, aggressive young football people and tons of cap space moving forward. We will know much more come January on not only RB but Whaley and Marrone as well.

 

Exactly. It's like the poster (I forget his name) in the former "sale of the team" thread who kept continuing to insist that he needed to know what Ralph put in writing about keeping the team in Buffalo. Who the hell cares? Everything worked out in the best way imaginable for Bills fans.

[Kelly the Dog]

Even after all of this semantic arguing, I just thought that it is an interesting topic to debate as to whether or not Russ Brandon should be held "ultimately" responsible for the Watkins trade. Kirby mentioned above that perhaps he should be. I have a pretty firm grasp on how much he was actually involved. It was a huge move and trade, and something he surely had to okay to pull off.

 

IMO, he has no culpability or responsibility for it whatsoever, outside of being the man who hired the man, Whaley, who made the trade.

 

I don't care if he had to okay it, or the buck stops here, or he is President or anything. I know and understand all that perfectly. The only thing that matters to me is that if he DIDN'T think it was a good trade, he still shouldn't and wouldn't have stopped it, because that is not his job. He has no business making that decision, so I don't want him to, so I am not going to criticize him for it if it fails, or credit him for it if it works out great, other than to say he did was he was supposed to do and not interfere.

 

The trade is entirely on Whaley, for good or bad.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[thebandit27]

Even after all of this semantic arguing, I just thought that it is an interesting topic to debate as to whether or not Russ Brandon should be held "ultimately" responsible for the Watkins trade. Kirby mentioned above that perhaps he should be. I have a pretty firm grasp on how much he was actually involved. It was a huge move and trade, and something he surely had to okay to pull off.

 

IMO, he has no culpability or responsibility for it whatsoever, outside of being the man who hired the man, Whaley, who made the trade.

 

I don't care if he had to okay it, or the buck stops here, or he is President or anything. I know and understand all that perfectly. The only thing that matters to me is that if he DIDN'T think it was a good trade, he still shouldn't and wouldn't have stopped it, because that is not his job. He has no business making that decision, so I don't want him to, so I am not going to criticize him for it if it fails, or credit him for it if it works out great, other than to say he did was he was supposed to do and not interfere.

 

The trade is entirely on Whaley, for good or bad.

 

This is precisely how I feel.

[Bob Malooga]

As a fan, what should matter is the product on the field. And it has sucked since 2009.

You missed the 10 years prior to 2009. Lol.

[TXBILLSFAN]

Even after all of this semantic arguing, I just thought that it is an interesting topic to debate as to whether or not Russ Brandon should be held "ultimately" responsible for the Watkins trade. Kirby mentioned above that perhaps he should be. I have a pretty firm grasp on how much he was actually involved. It was a huge move and trade, and something he surely had to okay to pull off.

 

IMO, he has no culpability or responsibility for it whatsoever, outside of being the man who hired the man, Whaley, who made the trade.

 

I don't care if he had to okay it, or the buck stops here, or he is President or anything. I know and understand all that perfectly. The only thing that matters to me is that if he DIDN'T think it was a good trade, he still shouldn't and wouldn't have stopped it, because that is not his job. He has no business making that decision, so I don't want him to, so I am not going to criticize him for it if it fails, or credit him for it if it works out great, other than to say he did was he was supposed to do and not interfere.

 

The trade is entirely on Whaley, for good or bad.

You make it sound like Brandon has tenure, like a NYS school teacher. If he's responsible, he's accountable, otherwise, he's the owner ;-)

[Kelly the Dog]

You make it sound like Brandon has tenure, like a NYS school teacher. If he's responsible, he's accountable, otherwise, he's the owner ;-)

So like the owner of the Ravens is accountable for all actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for not only all of the football and business decisions of the team, but especially the GM he hired to run it, Ozzie Newsome, who is also accountable for all of the actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for not only all of the whole football and business decisions of the team, but especially the coach he hired, John Harbaugh, who is also accountable for all of the actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for everything all of his players do.

 

Seems about right, I mean, if they're responsible, their accountable for everything.

[The Dean]

So like the owner of the Ravens is accountable for all actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for not only all of the football and business decisions of the team, but especially the GM he hired to run it, Ozzie Newsome, who is also accountable for all of the actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for not only all of the whole football and business decisions of the team, but especially the coach he hired, John Harbaugh, who is also accountable for all of the actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for everything all of his players do.

 

Seems about right, I mean, if they're responsible, their accountable for everything.

 

I know this is a bit hypocritical, as I have engaged in these back-and-forth discussions with someone who refuses, or simply cannot, get the point. But I believe you, Kirby and Bandit have gone above and beyond the call on this one. It ain't getting through. If it has gotten through, he refuses to admit it. Whatever.

[TXBILLSFAN]

 

So like the owner of the Ravens is accountable for all actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for not only all of the football and business decisions of the team, but especially the GM he hired to run it, Ozzie Newsome, who is also accountable for all of the actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for not only all of the whole football and business decisions of the team, but especially the coach he hired, John Harbaugh, who is also accountable for all of the actions of Ray Rice, because he's responsible for everything all of his players do.

 

Seems about right, I mean, if they're responsible, their accountable for everything.

LOL.

By that logic, if Whaley made bad picks every year, you'd fire the scouts and never the GM, which you and both know is not the case. CEO's actually do get fired, and for good reason. I'm not suggesting if the Bryce Brown trade backfires you fire Brandon. There is a cumulative affect of decisions over time and there are obviously different decisions that are given different weight.

 

For example, missing on a 1st round pick for a GM is a BIG deal, missing on a 2nd is less, a 3rd is less, etc. etc.

 

I have to think at some point you encountered a leader of an organization in your professional life that was fired for good reason. I've seen it many times first hand, sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not. What I have seen is that organizations that lack clear objectives and clear responsibilities with no accountability never succeed over the long term.

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

@KevinMassare: Source: "Watch for the name Todd France in relation to Bills. He and Pegula have developed a good friendship in past year. Potential hire."

[Kelly the Dog]

LOL.

By that logic, if Whaley made bad picks every year, you'd fire the scouts and never the GM, which you and both know is not the case. CEO's actually do get fired, and for good reason. I'm not suggesting if the Bryce Brown trade backfires you fire Brandon. There is a cumulative affect of decisions over time and there are obviously different decisions that are given different weight.

 

For example, missing on a 1st round pick for a GM is a BIG deal, missing on a 2nd is less, a 3rd is less, etc. etc.

 

I have to think at some point you encountered a leader of an organization in your professional life that was fired for good reason. I've seen it many times first hand, sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not. What I have seen is that organizations that lack clear objectives and clear responsibilities with no accountability never succeed over the long term.

Actually that seems to be your logic. In my logic, you know, the logical one, if Whaley made bad picks every year, Whaley and only Whaley would be held responsible, not the guys over him who are not making the decisions but give their opinions and not the guys under him who are not making the decisions but give their opinions. Seems pretty logical to me.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[Kirby Jackson]

FWIW, Sully suggested bringing someone in between Brandon and Whaley. I can see this happening for sure and Todd France seems to be a popular candidate. Sully suggested Polian and that would be fine by me as well. I want someone objective to come in and evaluate football ops and see if the right people are in place.

 

http://fb.me/6NzleAsEl