meazza Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 how bout you cite a source that refutes these aid figures? Would you like me to find a site called "If Birddog1960 only knew?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 If you really knew your history, then you would know why Jordan is not in a rush to step in. If you knew your history, you'd also be asking why aren't Palestinians demanding a right to return to Jordan and having full rights in Jordan. If you insist that this fight is about rights to the land as opposed to a fight about Jews in the Holy Land, then you can educate me on why the attention is only on Israel. This is a curious form of debate. Rather than stating exactly what you mean, you hint at things and expect me to guess where you're coming from. If I guess wrong you can say that wasn't what you meant or "aha, you don't know your history after all". I'll guess that you're trying to imply that the reason that the "attention is only on Israel" is due to anti-semitism. If there really is no case against Israel and it only gets so much criticism due to anti-semitism, then why are there so many Jewish critics of Israeli policy? As for there being a problem with Jews in the holy land, Jews and Muslims have lived together in the holy land prior to the advent of Zionism in relative peace, certainly far more peacefully than did the Jews and Christians in Europe over the same period. Take a look at some of the early Zionist literature. When you have a group coming from outside, saying that you are inferior, have no rights to the land on which your people have lived for generations and making no attempt to hide the fact that they mean to displace your from your homeland, it's really unlikely to go down too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 [PDF] U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel - Federation of American Scientists Without the spin. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 [PDF] U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel - Federation of American Scientists Without the spin. . on cursory review, the numbers match up pretty well. i didn't take the time to figure in inflation. neither did the fed of american scientists, my link did. at any rate, it's a ridiculously large amount and out of scale to any other nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Did I miss something? Why does he have to? I missed the part where we are obligated to provide military support to both sides of an armed conflict. Doing it for profit seems to be generally frowned upon and doing it for free strikes me as just silly, but I guess it would be the "fair" thing to do. If we give Palestine weapons it would allow this thing to really escalate and maybe even sort itself out, so there's an option. I also missed the part where its wise to provide military aid to Hamas, which last I checked, isn't too fond us at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) This is a curious form of debate. Rather than stating exactly what you mean, you hint at things and expect me to guess where you're coming from. If I guess wrong you can say that wasn't what you meant or "aha, you don't know your history after all". I'll guess that you're trying to imply that the reason that the "attention is only on Israel" is due to anti-semitism. If there really is no case against Israel and it only gets so much criticism due to anti-semitism, then why are there so many Jewish critics of Israeli policy? As for there being a problem with Jews in the holy land, Jews and Muslims have lived together in the holy land prior to the advent of Zionism in relative peace, certainly far more peacefully than did the Jews and Christians in Europe over the same period. Take a look at some of the early Zionist literature. When you have a group coming from outside, saying that you are inferior, have no rights to the land on which your people have lived for generations and making no attempt to hide the fact that they mean to displace your from your homeland, it's really unlikely to go down too well. Knowing history of the land would add a proper perspective to the conflict instead of retreating to the half truths that have turned into a mantra by the anti-Israel crowd. While not overtly anti-semitic, it certainly has a strong foundation of Euro anti-semitism. Yes, it's historically correct that Jews & Arabs lived peacefully side by side prior to 1947, but it's also incorrect to attribute everything to the founding of Israel. it's also true that the Arab countries did not agree to the partition. But they lost the war, Israel was born, and the Palestinian territories were occupied by Jordan. This also coincided with the rise of Arab nationalism, which started the suicidal ideological movement against the west. That's why you need to know the history of the land, and recognize that Israel is a convenient target. As we discussed in other debates over the years, if you could pluck Israel into the sky, and leave the remaining parties in their lands as is, do you think more or less Arabs would die? Edited August 5, 2014 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 This is a curious form of debate. Rather than stating exactly what you mean, you hint at things and expect me to guess where you're coming from. If I guess wrong you can say that wasn't what you meant or "aha, you don't know your history after all". I'll guess that you're trying to imply that the reason that the "attention is only on Israel" is due to anti-semitism. If there really is no case against Israel and it only gets so much criticism due to anti-semitism, then why are there so many Jewish critics of Israeli policy? As for there being a problem with Jews in the holy land, Jews and Muslims have lived together in the holy land prior to the advent of Zionism in relative peace, certainly far more peacefully than did the Jews and Christians in Europe over the same period. Take a look at some of the early Zionist literature. When you have a group coming from outside, saying that you are inferior, have no rights to the land on which your people have lived for generations and making no attempt to hide the fact that they mean to displace your from your homeland, it's really unlikely to go down too well. Criticism of Israeli policy does not automatically equal to anti-Semitism. That being said, the 25 Italian "academics" that are now trying to get all Israeli's (not just soldiers/politicians mind you) to go through "Nuremburg trials" while Assad and other butchers get zero attention sort of makes you wonder what goes on in the minds of these "academics". http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Criticism of Israeli policy does not automatically equal to anti-Semitism. That being said, the 25 Italian "academics" that are now trying to get all Israeli's (not just soldiers/politicians mind you) to go through "Nuremburg trials" while Assad and other butchers get zero attention sort of makes you wonder what goes on in the minds of these "academics". http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609046 There's something fishy going on in Syria. It's a shame. It's tragic. The only difference I can think of is one country is occupied and the other isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 There's something fishy going on in Syria. It's a shame. It's tragic. The only difference I can think of is one country is occupied and the other isn't. Though I think Israel should be held to higher standards than Syria, the difference in response by many has to do with antisemitism. 140,000 dead and who hears anything about it? (Waits on JTSP to pull out some conspiracy theory of US involvement in Syria and how it's all US' fault) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) Though I think Israel should be held to higher standards than Syria, the difference in response by many has to do with antisemitism. 140,000 dead and who hears anything about it? (Waits on JTSP to pull out some conspiracy theory of US involvement in Syria and how it's all US' fault) Lol @ the clown who sees antisemitism in movements to end Israeli occupation yet mocks others "conspiracy" theories, even when they haven't presented any! By your logic movements to end south African apartheid were racist towards whites in south Africa because they didn't also target Israel. How about trying to defend Israel in isolation versus objective legal and moral standards, rather than dilute and distract by involving comparison to others? Oh yeah, you can't, that's why. Edited August 5, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Though I think Israel should be held to higher standards than Syria, the difference in response by many has to do with antisemitism. 140,000 dead and who hears anything about it? (Waits on JTSP to pull out some conspiracy theory of US involvement in Syria and how it's all US' fault) the us isn't sending assad billions of dollars for weapons. and i don't see anyone defending him, on the right the left, in europe or the us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 the us isn't sending assad billions of dollars for weapons. and i don't see anyone defending him, on the right the left, in europe or the us. I also don't see academics trying to get assad for war crimes or constant protests in europe or canada. So all this for 3billion in aid? God you're a clown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 the us isn't sending assad billions of dollars for weapons. and i don't see anyone defending him, on the right the left, in europe or the us. Where is the universal condemnation? Where are the calls for UN tribunals? Yes, I know you're so shocked about it, that you've been posting constantly about Assad's abuses over the last two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Where is the universal condemnation? Where are the calls for UN tribunals? Yes, I know you're so shocked about it, that you've been posting constantly about Assad's abuses over the last two years. It's all about that few hundred dollars this multi millionaire has to pay out of his tax dollars that drives him crazy. Life must be tough for a doctor these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) I also don't see academics trying to get assad for war crimes or constant protests in europe or canada. So all this for 3billion in aid? God you're a clown. i'm just wondering how libertarian leaning people can justify even 1 billion dollars in foreign military aid while simultaneously complaining about any money spent on domestic entitlement programs. Where is the universal condemnation? Where are the calls for UN tribunals? Yes, I know you're so shocked about it, that you've been posting constantly about Assad's abuses over the last two years. https://www.humanrig..._Fact_Sheet.pdfhttp://www.huffingto..._n_4005550.html that took all over 30 seconds. i'm sure there's more. Edited August 5, 2014 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 i'm just wondering how libertarian leaning people can justify even 1 billion dollars in foreign military aid while simultaneously complaining about any money spent on domestic entitlement programs. https://www.humanrig..._Fact_Sheet.pdf http://www.huffingto..._n_4005550.html that took all over 30 seconds. i'm sure there's more. I'm a libertarian now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 i'm just wondering how libertarian leaning people can justify even 1 billion dollars in foreign military aid while simultaneously complaining about any money spent on domestic entitlement programs. https://www.humanrig..._Fact_Sheet.pdf http://www.huffingto..._n_4005550.html that took all over 30 seconds. i'm sure there's more. And where was your railing about it last year? What about Pakistan (how much aid are we giving them again?) Iraq? Nigeria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) And where was your railing about it last year? What about Pakistan (how much aid are we giving them again?) Iraq? Nigeria? iraq? are you kidding me? we're trying to fix what we broke. i was against breaking it in the first place. and i don't think it's a stretch to imagine israel was a consideration in that war.http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/sharon-says-u-s-should-also-disarm-iran-libya-and-syria-1.18707 in regards to military aid to other countries, 50% of all of our foreign military aid goes to israel. doesn't seem prudent does it? let's bring a bit of scale and proportion into the debate. oh, and the first link is from more than a year ago. i also started a thread titled " no devils left in hell' in regards to syria. i think it could be categorized as railing. Edited August 6, 2014 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Knowing history of the land would add a proper perspective to the conflict instead of retreating to the half truths that have turned into a mantra by the anti-Israel crowd. While not overtly anti-semitic, it certainly has a strong foundation of Euro anti-semitism. Yes, it's historically correct that Jews & Arabs lived peacefully side by side prior to 1947, but it's also incorrect to attribute everything to the founding of Israel. it's also true that the Arab countries did not agree to the partition. But they lost the war, Israel was born, and the Palestinian territories were occupied by Jordan. This also coincided with the rise of Arab nationalism, which started the suicidal ideological movement against the west. That's why you need to know the history of the land, and recognize that Israel is a convenient target. As we discussed in other debates over the years, if you could pluck Israel into the sky, and leave the remaining parties in their lands as is, do you think more or less Arabs would die? You are an emotional thinker. Nothing you say is based in facts. Because you want something to be true you simply argue in a way that makes it seem so. Criticism of Israeli policy does not automatically equal to anti-Semitism. That being said, the 25 Italian "academics" that are now trying to get all Israeli's (not just soldiers/politicians mind you) to go through "Nuremburg trials" while Assad and other butchers get zero attention sort of makes you wonder what goes on in the minds of these "academics". http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609046 Oldest trick in the book. Yell because someone else--somewhere, anywhere--in the world is bad, too. Israel is suppose to be different. So Israel should just be able to do whatever they want, for decades on end, and get away with it because something else bad is happening in the world, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 You are an emotional thinker. Nothing you say is based in facts. Because you want something to be true you simply argue in a way that makes it seem so. Coming from you, that is hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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