TakeYouToTasker Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think he's referring to religious majority of Israel, but couldn't help himself with the racial angle. Even if he is, he's still wrong. Of the Jewish population, 20% identifies as athiest or agnostic. Then he still needs to account for that 25% non-Jewish population I've already discussed. That puts the percentage of people in Israel who self-identify as Jewish as lower than those in America who self-identify as Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I am by no means an expert but I think there is some question of whether Jews are a race, religion or both. Still, if you prefer it I will label it "religious majority" instead. Whatever you want to call it, my reply to Tom stands - full citizenship of Israel is not and has never been on offer to all Palestinians. Would you dispute that? I don't think there's ever been a serious debate on whether Jews are a race. But to your point, Gaza & WB Palestinians do not qualify for Israeli residence & citizenship, just like they don't qualify for these rights in any other neighboring country, even though they could lay the same historic claim to the lands in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon & Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I don't think there's ever been a serious debate on whether Jews are a race. But to your point, Gaza & WB Palestinians do not qualify for Israeli residence & citizenship, just like they don't qualify for these rights in any other neighboring country, even though they could lay the same historic claim to the lands in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon & Syria. "Palestinian" isn't a race, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) I don't think there's ever been a serious debate on whether Jews are a race. But to your point, Gaza & WB Palestinians do not qualify for Israeli residence & citizenship, just like they don't qualify for these rights in any other neighboring country, even though they could lay the same historic claim to the lands in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon & Syria. I would argue that those who lost their homes as a result of the creation of the state of Israel or are their descendents have a considerably greater claim to Israeli residence and citizenship than in any random Arab nation. Edited July 30, 2014 by chicot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I would argue that those who lost their homes as a result of the creation of the state of Israel or are their descendents have a considerably greater claim to Israeli residence and citizenship than in any random Arab nation. Remind me again of the long histories of the great nations of Syria and Jordan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I would argue that those who lost their homes as a result of the creation of the state of Israel or are their descendents have a considerably greater claim to Israeli residence and citizenship than in any random Arab nation. "Left." Not "lost." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 "Left." Not "lost." Further, they didn't own the land, as referenced in "the creation of Israel". The British did. The British simply repurposed their own property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Remind me again of the long histories of the great nations of Syria and Jordan? I am not talking about people who left the land that is now Syria or Jordan. I am talking about people who were made refugees in the chaos that followed the creation of Israeli. As such, they have the right of return. As the people I am referring to did not come from the lands now making the present-day states of Syria or Jordan, the "long histories of the great nations of Syria and Jordan" are entirely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I am not talking about people who left the land that is now Syria or Jordan. I am talking about people who were made refugees in the chaos that followed the creation of Israeli. As such, they have the right of return. As the people I am referring to did not come from the lands now making the present-day states of Syria or Jordan, the "long histories of the great nations of Syria and Jordan" are entirely irrelevant. If you knew your history of the region, you would realize that the histories of Syria and Jordan are completely relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 If you knew your history of the region, you would realize that the histories of Syria and Jordan are completely relevant. Well, enlighten me then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Well, enlighten me then. Do your own homework Sue, and start with the border partitions of the end of the British Mandate and how each country was created. Then take a read on why the Palestinians in questions left the land that is now Israel, who controlled the Gaza & West Bank lands, and the Palestinians' relationships with the Arab rulers since 1948. You may actually learn that Israel may not as bad of an occupier as the Arab cousins. Which gets back to the main point. Palestinians have been used as pawns in the region for generations, but have repeatedly flubbed opportunities to control their destiny. If you want to take a cynical view of an alternate universe without Israel's presence in the area, the Palestinians of Gaza & West Bank would likely have been wiped out by Syrians or Jordanians by 1970, and no one would have batted an eyelash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I would love to see the US cut off all aid to Israel. Its government is a bully. I have no problem with the Israeli people. They have a right to defend themselves. It seems as if the Israeli government likes to initiate a fight and then bomb the crap out of civilians claiming "self defense". That's cowardice. I'm sure the Israeli people would rather have peace just like their neighbors. But I'm sure it won't happen in my lifetime if ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Do your own homework Sue, and start with the border partitions of the end of the British Mandate and how each country was created. Then take a read on why the Palestinians in questions left the land that is now Israel, who controlled the Gaza & West Bank lands, and the Palestinians' relationships with the Arab rulers since 1948. You may actually learn that Israel may not as bad of an occupier as the Arab cousins. Which gets back to the main point. Palestinians have been used as pawns in the region for generations, but have repeatedly flubbed opportunities to control their destiny. If you want to take a cynical view of an alternate universe without Israel's presence in the area, the Palestinians of Gaza & West Bank would likely have been wiped out by Syrians or Jordanians by 1970, and no one would have batted an eyelash. Actually I know my history pretty well but I explained why I believed the histories of Syria and Jordan were not relevant, therefore the onus was on you to explain their relevance. As for why the Palestinians in question left the land that is now Israel, that is a matter of dispute. I very much doubt that what I believe is the same as what you believe and as neither of us was actually there at the time we will have to agree to disagree. What could have happened in an alternate universe doesn't really get us anywhere. Like it or not, we have to deal with the universe that we live in. Do you really believe that slaughtering Gazans by the thousand is actually going to improve Israel's security? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Actually I know my history pretty well but I explained why I believed the histories of Syria and Jordan were not relevant, therefore the onus was on you to explain their relevance. As for why the Palestinians in question left the land that is now Israel, that is a matter of dispute. I very much doubt that what I believe is the same as what you believe and as neither of us was actually there at the time we will have to agree to disagree. What could have happened in an alternate universe doesn't really get us anywhere. Like it or not, we have to deal with the universe that we live in. Do you really believe that slaughtering Gazans by the thousand is actually going to improve Israel's security? If you really knew your history, then you would know why Jordan is not in a rush to step in. If you knew your history, you'd also be asking why aren't Palestinians demanding a right to return to Jordan and having full rights in Jordan. If you insist that this fight is about rights to the land as opposed to a fight about Jews in the Holy Land, then you can educate me on why the attention is only on Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Cease-fire "Israeli-style" Israeli strike hits Gaza shopping area An Israeli air strike hit a crowded shopping area in the Shijaiyah district in Gaza City, killing at least 16 people, including local Palestinian photographer Rami Rayan, who was wearing a press vest at the time, and wounding more than 200 people, Gaza health officials said. Al-Kidra and witnesses said the shopping area was busy because residents, and many who had taken shelter in the area from fighting elsewhere, thought a ceasefire was in place. “People were in the street and in the market, mostly women and kids. Suddenly more than 10 shells landed in the area, the market, in the Turkman area, and next to the gas station,” said Salim Qadoum, 26, who witnessed the strike. Blood stained the streets near the strike and limbs were strewn across the floor. http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/israeli-strike-hits-gaza-shopping-area-as-un-condemns-school-attack/story-e6frg6so-1227008115973 Edited July 30, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Cease-fire "Israeli-style" Israeli strike hits Gaza shopping area An Israeli air strike hit a crowded shopping area in the Shijaiyah district in Gaza City, killing at least 16 people, including local Palestinian photographer Rami Rayan, who was wearing a press vest at the time, and wounding more than 200 people, Gaza health officials said. Al-Kidra and witnesses said the shopping area was busy because residents, and many who had taken shelter in the area from fighting elsewhere, thought a ceasefire was in place. "People were in the street and in the market, mostly women and kids. Suddenly more than 10 shells landed in the area, the market, in the Turkman area, and next to the gas station," said Salim Qadoum, 26, who witnessed the strike. Blood stained the streets near the strike and limbs were strewn across the floor. http://m.theaustrali...o-1227008115973 Why didn't you quote the part of the article that mentions Gaza still firing rockets into Israel despite the cease-fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Actually I know my history pretty well but I explained why I believed the histories of Syria and Jordan were not relevant, therefore the onus was on you to explain their relevance. As for why the Palestinians in question left the land that is now Israel, that is a matter of dispute. I very much doubt that what I believe is the same as what you believe and as neither of us was actually there at the time we will have to agree to disagree. What could have happened in an alternate universe doesn't really get us anywhere. Like it or not, we have to deal with the universe that we live in. Do you really believe that slaughtering Gazans by the thousand is actually going to improve Israel's security? No, you didn't explain why they weren't relevant. You made a dismissive fiat declaration, and alluded to "random Arab nations", then once again declared that the histories of Syria and Jordan aren't relevant. That's not an explanation. You may well have one, and if you do, I, for one, would love to hear it; however, what you've presented so far isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Why didn't you quote the part of the article that mentions Gaza still firing rockets into Israel despite the cease-fire? The women and children were firing rockets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I would love to see the US cut off all aid to Israel. Its government is a bully. I have no problem with the Israeli people. They have a right to defend themselves. It seems as if the Israeli government likes to initiate a fight and then bomb the crap out of civilians claiming "self defense". That's cowardice. I'm sure the Israeli people would rather have peace just like their neighbors. But I'm sure it won't happen in my lifetime if ever. If there were not Hamas rockets being launched towards Israel, no such actions would have been taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 The women and children were firing rockets? Cease-fire "Palestinian style". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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