Why Niagara Falls?

[May Day 10]

God love Jim kelly... but that is a weak "argument" in the face of all that is going against it.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

Obviously you've never been to Gillette Stadium in Foxboro where there is only two ways into that stadium: Rt.1 North or Route 1 South. And yet they make it work.

 

While not ideal NF access isn't the disaster you describe. A traffic study is part of the site search going on now so they are thinking about it. There are three other big factors that make NF so attractive:

 

1) Land...Howard Milstein, who is very connected to the governor, owns a gigantic parcel of land right behind the casino.

 

2) Border access...Canadian fans can literally walk over the Rainbow Bridge to the new stadium. Customs can close down auto traffic for a day. It's a lot easier moving large numbers of people over a border without their vehicles.

 

3) Falls redevelopment...Let's face it, NF, USA is a hole. If you build an NFL stadium along with a convention, hotel and entertainment complex, you have an attraction that trumps the Canadian side at least on game days. You can also develop an "NFL Experience" theme park as an ongoing attraction. How about moving training camp there? Another attraction. A bowl game? UB football? There are other events you can add that make it viable outside of game days.

 

Stop being rational. Bridges, traffic, infrastructure... IMPOSSIBLE to change ever.

 

As I suggested in another thread once the erosion of the falls moves it to the other side of grand island then you get a win-win.

 

I wonder if that can be accelerated by dropping lake Erie's ph or something

 

God love Jim kelly... but that is a weak "argument" in the face of all that is going against it.

 

But as a life long nfler dedicated to the area, he gets it. Niagara Falls is the right regionalization play to stay in buf. Prob the only one.

[May Day 10]

Here is an article that actually presents information beyond the surface "7th wonder" and "closer to toronto" positions

 

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2014/MAY06/ten.html

 

 

We're talking 9 or 10 figures in acquiring land and rebuilding/rerouting roads before a shovel even hits the ground on a stadium.

Edited June 4, 2014 by May Day 10

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

But this doesn't answer the logistics problems that NF faces. The city had traffic difficulties with the Wallenda walk and at most it was 15-20K people.

 

Two kinds of people in this world, those who come up with all the reasons things won't work and ones who figure ways to make things work... Guess which type tend to influence billion dollar decisions?

 

200 million would get traffic capacity in place. You need about 15 lanes to move 30k cars in an hour. You probably already have 8 or 9.

 

Finish the highway to the right of GI, like 7 miles to connect to thruway. Add smart lanes on GI bridges and NF blvd that change direction to accommodate flow. Set up remote mass transit hubs. Add gameday ez pass only tolls to help pay for it and invective proper flow.

 

 

[BillnutinHouston]

Interesting note from Kryk source (in recent article):

 

--A prominent East Coast sports-franchise sale and relocation expert told QMI Agency in early April that Niagara Falls might make the most sense of any new stadium location in Western New York, as much as anything because it would draw more ticket-buyers from the Golden Horseshoe. "I don't think you're going to lose your season-ticket holders from Buffalo," the expert said. Well, not a lot of them, probably, but surely some -- especially if something isn't done to widen or augment the pair of narrow, two-lane I-190 bridges on either end of Grand Island, and their bottlenecking $1 tollbooths. Would the additional Canadian ticket-buyers more than make up for the ticket drop among Western New Yorkers? Almost certainly. "I think what ends up happening in that circumstance is you might go up from 18% season tickets from Canadians (as is the case now, the Bills say) up to 25% or 30%," the source said. "You'd actually position yourself better for sponsorship and advertising. It could be great for the whole region. I think it would work out very well. It would play well, too. I could see more synergies from MLSE or Rogers or whoever is involved. There are a lot of cross-promotional perspectives."

 

The new owner is going to have as much or more say in the location than anyone. I suspect that the entire ownership selection will revolve around the complete package of not only who can pay market value for the team, but also where they want the new stadium and how viable that owner's stadium plan is from a public funding standpoint. I further suspect that conversations between prospective owners, the trustees, the Governor and the league will all be happening simultaneously and will have to come together in one package in order for someone to be declared the new owner.

 

Many have rightly pointed out that the Toronto series has not successfully stamped the Bills brand onto the hearts of Toronto sports fans. But if the team was partly Canadian owned, that could change. Between the symbolism of an American-Canadian ownership group and building a new stadium in the "Niagara region", I could see where a prospective owner would feel that they are on a solid financial foundation to put in a winning bid on the Bills.

 

I'm not going out on a limb by saying that almost everyone will find something to be disappointed about when the new ownership and stadium location is announced. But to me, the biggest concerns are 1) keeping the team in WNY and 2) building a solid financial foundation for the team going forward. I don't want to have to rely on the NFL welfare system (revenue sharing) or some philanthropist to keep my team afloat into the future, and by leveraging the wealth and corporate sponsorship north of the border, maybe I don't have to.

Edited June 4, 2014 by BillnutinHouston

[May Day 10]

 

 

Two kinds of people in this world, those who come up with all the reasons things won't work and ones who figure ways to make things work... Guess which type tend to influence billion dollar decisions?

 

200 million would get traffic capacity in place. You need about 15 lanes to move 30k cars in an hour. You probably already have 8 or 9.

 

Finish the highway to the right of GI, like 7 miles to connect to thruway. Add smart lanes on GI bridges and NF blvd that change direction to accommodate flow. Set up remote mass transit hubs. Add gameday ez pass only tolls to help pay for it and invective proper flow.

 

200 million might get you millsteins land

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

200 million might get you millsteins land

 

Buying land is a separate issue that they will face no matter which direction they go.

 

The fact of the matter is traffic capacity will have to be addressed no matter where you go.

 

Niagara Falls has merit. So does downtown buffalo.

 

Hell a very compelling argument is moving it makes no sense at all because as the lack of corporate money in buffalo damages the value proposition of one of these new mega stadiums and if the answer isn't retrofit forever on the cheap then a new stadium for the bills may as well be in TO or LA.

 

But people that want to present "unsolvable" problems as reasons for not doing something just aren't really adding value to discussion.

 

Niagara Falls primary motive is a marketing play. Canadians identify with the falls as the landmark is theirs to. It's as close as you get to Toronto geographically, but it's a million miles closer to their identity than a southern tier burb. The entertainment industry consolidation there could spawn other growth and rekindle the destination status it once had. The Canada side could also benefit from the same effect. The right kind of construction could then be home to other events from both sides of the boarder. You're in effect leveraging an immovable asset/attraction to compensate for the fact the supporting city is continuing to contract and trying to somehow use a large scale development activity to combat the trend. The vision is valid even if pragmatically it ends up a distant runner up as a solution.

Edited June 4, 2014 by over 20 years of fanhood

[TXBILLSFAN]

 

Obviously you've never been to Gillette Stadium in Foxboro where there is only two ways into that stadium: Rt.1 North or Route 1 South. And yet they make it work.

 

While not ideal NF access isn't the disaster you describe. A traffic study is part of the site search going on now so they are thinking about it. There are three other big factors that make NF so attractive:

 

1) Land...Howard Milstein, who is very connected to the governor, owns a gigantic parcel of land right behind the casino.

 

2) Border access...Canadian fans can literally walk over the Rainbow Bridge to the new stadium. Customs can close down auto traffic for a day. It's a lot easier moving large numbers of people over a border without their vehicles.

 

3) Falls redevelopment...Let's face it, NF, USA is a hole. If you build an NFL stadium along with a convention, hotel and entertainment complex, you have an attraction that trumps the Canadian side at least on game days. You can also develop an "NFL Experience" theme park as an ongoing attraction. How about moving training camp there? Another attraction. A bowl game? UB football? There are other events you can add that make it viable outside of game days.

 

Not sure walking is as viable an option as you make it sound like, it's approximately 2 miles from Milstein's property across to the other side of Rainbow bridge -- that's like parking at Dick's Sporting Goods for the Ralph --- add to that, some distance to actually find parking in Canada and you could easily be at 2 1/2 miles or more --- possible, but not practical.

 

I've made it clear in previous posts that solving the other infrastructure issues in the Falls will be extremely expensive and as far as return on investment, the state and private groups would be much better off putting the stadium in downtown Buffalo and investing in other projects in the Falls.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Here is an article that actually presents information beyond the surface "7th wonder" and "closer to toronto" positions

 

http://www.niagarafa.../MAY06/ten.html

 

 

We're talking 9 or 10 figures in acquiring land and rebuilding/rerouting roads before a shovel even hits the ground on a stadium.

 

The biggest reason in the article is traffic i.e. infrastructure which can be worked on, the other 9 are stretching. Wrong use may be the other large reason but again It has to go somewhere, if you build it.

 

Buying land is a separate issue that they will face no matter which direction they go.

 

The fact of the matter is traffic capacity will have to be addressed no matter where you go.

 

Niagara Falls has merit. So does downtown buffalo.

 

Hell a very compelling argument is moving it makes no sense at all because as the lack of corporate money in buffalo damages the value proposition one of the new mega stadiums and if the answer isn't retrofit forever on the cheap then a new stadium for the bills may as well be in TO or LA.

 

But people that want to present "unsolvable" problems as reasons for not doing something just aren't really adding value to discussion.

 

It seems as thought many believe this is only an issue for NF. Wouldn't you need to make infrastructure investments everywhere besides Orchard Park?

[MarkAF43]

But people that want to present "unsolvable" problems as reasons for not doing something just aren't really adding value to discussion.

 

 

Hopefully that wasn't a shot directed at me, I started the thread with the purpose of having the discussion as to actual ways and plans to make the traffic flow better, not just say it can't be done. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, IF (and it's a big if), they can manage to make it semi-reasonable to get out of the falls without sacrificing your entire sunday evening after a game. I keep seeing comments that it can be done and it would be done, but outside of one person ( i think it was you), I haven't seen many real ideas as to how to improve what people are saying about the traffic problems of putting a stadium there.

[May Day 10]

Its just not logical. I dont think it would save people from Toronto any time getting caught in the boondoggle that will exist there no matter what they do. As I mentioned too, most people from up there stop and stock up on supplies before the tailgate. That doesnt/wont exist between the border, casino, and venue... at least to service that many people at once. More may open, but they would have to somehow do business the other 345-355 days a year. So people would have to go through traffic, drive further inland to get their stuff, and get back into traffic and park. Many would probably loop around and use the Peace Bridge and stop on the way anyways.

 

We are all on the same side. I would love a stadium here. Keeps the Bills in WNY and I could ride a bicycle to the facility. However, besides closing your eyes and plugging your ears and yelling "closer to toronto, 7th wonder" it has many things working against it and would mount a gargantuan cost... all in a place that has traditionally rejected any progress. Even if you just move the stadium toward the Lasalle Expressway or Wheatfield/Summit Mall you are saving a ton of cost and trouble

 

I work in contracting and have a lot of experience with road construction/reconstruction. I do believe we would be talking cost that would double the cost of the stadium.

 

 

The only way I see it happening is based on the speculative scenario from Kryk's column. MLSE/Rogers/Jacobs agree to foot the bill on almost all the stadium, in exchange for the state/Niagara county paying for the infrastructure. This would also depend on Erie County being lax on the relocation portion of their lease.

 

 

 

If the county/state is on the hook. They already have all the land and infrastructure they need in Orchard Park. Build a comfortable stadium, field a stable, competitive team, and they will be fine.

Edited June 4, 2014 by May Day 10

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Its just not logical. I dont think it would save people from Toronto any time getting caught in the boondoggle that will exist there no matter what they do. As I mentioned too, most people from up there stop and stock up on supplies before the tailgate. That doesnt/wont exist between the border, casino, and venue... at least to service that many people at once. More may open, but they would have to somehow do business the other 345-355 days a year. So people would have to go through traffic, drive further inland to get their stuff, and get back into traffic and park. Many would probably loop around and use the Peace Bridge and stop on the way anyways.

 

This would be true in any new location though wouldn't it? How many people visit the Falls every year and head to the Canadian side? If you were to beautify the US side as part of a new stadium build you have a large amount of traffic to supply those new business the other 345-355 days a year wouldn't you?

Edited June 4, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[May Day 10]

to beautify the US side though is another huge money expense on top of the roads, land acquisition, and stadium. A billion dollars in Buffalo, a city that had 100x the pulse NF has and it still will need significant work/luck over decade(s).

Stadiums, especially football do not typically result in a positive economic impact. I would say having a stadium and all the lots associated with it is a 'waste' of the area there. If NYS was pumping a billion dollars into NF, it could be much better spent. Look at OP. We have a few bars/restaurants and gas stations. Thats all thats needed around the stadium.

 

We have already lost the battle on US vs Canadian sides until a NYS Governor pulls the rug from the Senecas and allows private casinos in Niagara Falls... maybe even a marijuana district type of thing but thats a different discussion. Things at and around the falls there will pop up so quick, and be much better than a stadium/lots. Canadians would be choosing USA due to the cheaper prices/shopping, etc.

Edited June 4, 2014 by May Day 10

[Mr. WEO]

Simply put, there is no way the state is going to spend at least 200 million changing the "infrastructure" of NF to accomodate a rarely used stadium (spare us the talk of "Bowl Games" and concerts--they would be too rare to make an impact). Also, stadiums and convention centers don't revitalize blighted towns. Put it in Buffalo or leave it where it is.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

to beautify the US side though is another huge money expense on top of the roads, land acquisition, and stadium. A billion dollars in Buffalo, a city that had 100x the pulse NF has and it still will need significant work/luck over decade(s).

Stadiums, especially football do not typically result in a positive economic impact. I would say having a stadium and all the lots associated with it is a 'waste' of the area there. If NYS was pumping a billion dollars into NF, it could be much better spent. Look at OP. We have a few bars/restaurants and gas stations. Thats all thats needed around the stadium.

 

I agree that there is little to no economic impact directly from a stadium. However; if the State is going to try and funnel money to a project on the magnitude we are discussing its a lot easier to swallow from, a tax payers perspective, to say the are beautifying and creating new infrastructure for NF then just give money to build a new stadium.

 

Simply put, there is no way the state is going to spend at least 200 million changing the "infrastructure" of NF to accomodate a rarely used stadium (spare us the talk of "Bowl Games" and concerts--they would be too rare to make an impact). Also, stadiums and convention centers don't revitalize blighted towns. Put it in Buffalo or leave it where it is.

 

I am not advocating it go in any specific location that being NF/OP/ Batavia or Buffalo; however, unless its built on the current site in OP there will be an infrastructure cost.

[Mr. WEO]

Interesting note from Kryk source (in recent article):

 

--A prominent East Coast sports-franchise sale and relocation expert

 

Wow, how many sports franchises have been purchased, let alone relocated in the past 5 or 10 years that someone can make a living as an "expert" at it---and the one one on the "east coast", no less--as if such people are all over the country.

 

I agree that there is little to no economic impact directly from a stadium. However; if the State is going to try and funnel money to a project on the magnitude we are discussing its a lot easier to swallow from, a tax payers perspective, to say the are beautifying and creating new infrastructure for NF then just give money to build a new stadium.

 

 

 

I am not advocating it go in any specific location that being NF/OP/ Batavia or Buffalo; however, unless its built on the current site in OP there will be an infrastructure cost.

 

NF would need to most work.. At 200 million, the state would find it's not worth saving.

[ET1062]

Another route in/out of Niagara Falls.

 

Route 190

Peace Bridge to Canada

QEW

Exit at 420

Park near Casino Niagara

Walk across the Rainbow Bridge.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

Good point of NF site

Not according to WEO. He's the expert.

[Solomon Grundy]

Why, is the Question!

[Big Turk]

Dyster is alreading saving money for the stadium with his ridiculous garbage contract he signed for the next five years, lmao

Edited June 4, 2014 by matter2003