Bronc24 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Joe Theismann Jim McMahon Doug Williams Jeff Hostetler Mark Rypien Trent Dilfer Brad Johnson Some pretty mediocre QBs that won Super Bowls. It's 2014, not 1997. Different league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Bill Belichick is THE reason why the the Bills didn't win Super Bowl XXV. And he's been beating the Buffalo Bills ever since and he always will. Honestly, if you go back and watch that game, they stopped the Bills offense from moving the ball fairly well, but in no way was that the key factor in the loss. His defensive strategy was good at slowing down the pass, but in reality, Giants 3rd down conversions, and one of the most pathetic tackling performances I have ever seen by most of the defense that day was ultimately the cause of that loss. Bellichik's defense seems to get all the credit, but in reality, the Bills defense on 3rd down was the reason, and being overpowered by the Giants' running game. Ohhhh, I feel so dirty now for thinking about that frickin game... Edited May 7, 2014 by Homey D. Clown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorpma Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Winning football teams have competent coaching. The Buffalo Bills does not have competent coaching. 6-10. Right on, great post. They also lack a competent FO and scouting department. Miserable drafts for over ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBuff423 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Right on, great post. They also lack a competent FO and scouting department. Miserable drafts for over ten years. I would really like to understand how you can lump the Draft of 2004 into the Drafts over the last few years?? Miserable Drafting....really? Kyle Williams in the 5th round SJ in the 7th Whitner (Drafted way toooooooooo high, but still Pro Bowl selection and was the highest paid Safety once he left Buffalo...not a bad decision, but also a great talent) Lynch (who was traded but the BILLS still Drafted him) Poz (again, BILLS let him walk, but is having a solid career in Jax of all places, and he was let go due to scheme change more than anything) Demetrius Bell 7th round, has been a Pro Bowl LT for years, and yes they traded him to Philly but again, the BILLS Drafted him in the 7th round Eric Wood Jairus Byrd Andy Levitre Dareus - current issues notwithstanding, he just made the Pro Bowl Cordy Glenn Kiko Alonso - runner up for DROY Honorable Mention: Robert Woods and Aaron Williams Still TBD: EJ Manuel Role Players: Arthur Moats, CJ Spiller (bad value, but great talent), and Leodis McKelvin (had a good year last year...finally). And by the way, Fred Jackson was scouted by the BILLS and invited to Camp in 2006 and made the active Roster a year later....so yeah, they saw talent and took him. Also keep in mind, the BILLS Drafted Brad Butler in the middle rounds and was doing well on the right side of the Offensive line when he retired early and young... So, while two of the Drafts during those years was ABYSMAL, there was also a transition in GM and football responsibilities. The last few years have been anywhere form good to very good....personally, I think you're talking out of your arse....but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 It's 2014, not 1997. Different league. Johnson won in 2003. I left some guys off this list that I don't think are elite, like Eli Manning and Joe Flacco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Honestly, if you go back and watch that game, they stopped the Bills offense from moving the ball fairly well, but in no way was that the key factor in the loss. His defensive strategy was good at slowing down the pass, but in reality, Giants 3rd down conversions, and one of the most pathetic tackling performances I have ever seen by most of the defense that day was ultimately the cause of that loss. Bellichik's defense seems to get all the credit, but in reality, the Bills defense on 3rd down was the reason, and being overpowered by the Giants' running game. Ohhhh, I feel so dirty now for thinking about that frickin game... ^This +. The reality is, Bellyache was damned lucky that his offense bailed his defense out and that Jim Kelly and Marchibroda were too damned stubborn early on. The Giants defense did little to stop us, unless you consider 19 points in 19 minutes of possession as stopping somebody. 376 yards in half the time of possession? Are you kidding me? The game was lost when the Giants controlled the ball for the last 10 minutes of the first half and the first 10 minutes of the second half. End of story. Bellyache is so lucky that even after all that domination by the Giants' offense, it still came down to a missed FG. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 it kind of irritates me with the lack of support for EJ on here. He was a top draft choice, and has the skills to produce, sure he got injured a couple times, but that doesn't mean he is going to be am injury risk all the time... Conversely, I am probably higher on him, than what he deserves... Saying we DO or we DON'T have a quality starting QB, at this point is premature at best! There has been a long track record of top drafted QB's making significant leaps in production in year two- it was discussed on here already... EJ has the tools, drive, and brain to succeed, lets hope for our teams sake he is the real deal!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 WRT Bellyache * #1 TUCK RULE #2 SPY GATE scratch 1 or more of their Rings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorpma Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I would really like to understand how you can lump the Draft of 2004 into the Drafts over the last few years?? Miserable Drafting....really? Kyle Williams in the 5th round SJ in the 7th Whitner (Drafted way toooooooooo high, but still Pro Bowl selection and was the highest paid Safety once he left Buffalo...not a bad decision, but also a great talent) Lynch (who was traded but the BILLS still Drafted him) Poz (again, BILLS let him walk, but is having a solid career in Jax of all places, and he was let go due to scheme change more than anything) Demetrius Bell 7th round, has been a Pro Bowl LT for years, and yes they traded him to Philly but again, the BILLS Drafted him in the 7th round Eric Wood Jairus Byrd Andy Levitre Dareus - current issues notwithstanding, he just made the Pro Bowl Cordy Glenn Kiko Alonso - runner up for DROY Honorable Mention: Robert Woods and Aaron Williams Still TBD: EJ Manuel Role Players: Arthur Moats, CJ Spiller (bad value, but great talent), and Leodis McKelvin (had a good year last year...finally). And by the way, Fred Jackson was scouted by the BILLS and invited to Camp in 2006 and made the active Roster a year later....so yeah, they saw talent and took him. Also keep in mind, the BILLS Drafted Brad Butler in the middle rounds and was doing well on the right side of the Offensive line when he retired early and young... So, while two of the Drafts during those years was ABYSMAL, there was also a transition in GM and football responsibilities. The last few years have been anywhere form good to very good....personally, I think you're talking out of your arse....but whatever. Where's the beef! BFD!!! The last playff appearance in 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 it kind of irritates me with the lack of support for EJ on here. He was a top draft choice, and has the skills to produce, sure he got injured a couple times, but that doesn't mean he is going to be am injury risk all the time... Conversely, I am probably higher on him, than what he deserves... Saying we DO or we DON'T have a quality starting QB, at this point is premature at best! There has been a long track record of top drafted QB's making significant leaps in production in year two- it was discussed on here already... EJ has the tools, drive, and brain to succeed, lets hope for our teams sake he is the real deal!!! I happen to agree with you, but there are plenty of people that had made up their mind on Manuel before he played one down. Only time will tell. Give him good coaching and a good supporting cast and let's see what he can do. I am of the school of thought that it is easier to build a great team around a good QB, than it is to find an elite QB. However you can't build a great team by letting good players walk. With the teams that the Bills have fielded over the past fourteen years how many QBs would have made them champions? Payton, Brady, who else? There are guys that probably would have gotten them to the playoffs, but Super Bowls? Granted I'd take the playoffs right now. There are about a dozen elite guys that have won Super Bowls, about seven or eight mediocre guys, that leaves twenty eight guys that were good to very good but not elite. By elite I mean guys that can win with anybody, they are few and far between and really hard to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) I'd divide a football team into three categories: I like you're thought process... My take 1. Quarterback. Average or better is good enough. Peyton is among elite of elite and is 1 for 3. The better QB doesn't always win. Russell Wilson hasn't proven he's a star yet. I give EJ one more season to tell us where he fits in the spectrum. 2. "Foundation players." Are/have been: Wood Jax Kyle Maybe/could be: A Williams MD99 Gilmore Mario Woodsy Kiko Cordy Doubtful, but you never know, could turn a corner: Stevie(he may have peaked) CJ if he ever learned to move chains first.... Leodis..(could stick as a #2 middling DB) Any of last year or this years free agents 3. Everyone else... Yup Edited May 7, 2014 by over 20 years of fanhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Johnson won in 2003. I left some guys off this list that I don't think are elite, like Eli Manning and Joe Flacco. I didn't say elite. But both those guys were elite in the playoffs. Ok. It's not 2003. Totally different game now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I'd divide a football team into three categories: 1. Quarterback. 2. "Foundation players." 3. Everyone else. For someone to meet my definition of a "foundation player," all of the following must be true: 1. He must play at a high level. 2. He must have a long career. 3. The vast majority of his career must be spent with your team. It's difficult to build any kind of long-term advantage over other NFL teams using "everyone else" type players. To build something which will last, a GM should obtain for himself a very good QB, and a good core of foundation players. If your team doesn't have an answer at quarterback, and has very few foundational players, it's very difficult to build something. If the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in 14 years, it's mostly due to our weakness at quarterback and the paucity of foundation players. Getting a foundation player is a two part process. First you must draft or sign a very good player. Then you must keep that good player on your roster for a very long time. If your best players go first-contract-and-out, you will be extremely unlikely to build or sustain a winning football team. There is talk about moving Cordy Glenn to RT or OG; even though this would spoil the Bills' ability to extend him. There is talk about drafting a LT at #9 and moving him to RT. This, even though the top RTs are paid much less than the top LTs--a fact which would likely tempt our RT to leave after his rookie contract was done. I'm not comfortable with that line of thinking at all. If the offensive line needs more talent--which it does--the Bills should focus on maximizing the number of foundation offensive linemen; while minimizing their draft pick investment. That means holding onto Cordy Glenn for his whole career. It also means that if they draft a RT, they should also hold onto that RT for his whole career also--or at least have a disciplined, realistic plan for doing so. ... and staying true to your draft board and not reaching because of need. Check out the Aaron Rodgers story here: http://mmqb.si.com/2014/05/07/nfl-draft-war-rooms/ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I happen to agree with you, but there are plenty of people that had made up their mind on Manuel before he played one down. Only time will tell. Give him good coaching and a good supporting cast and let's see what he can do. I am of the school of thought that it is easier to build a great team around a good QB, than it is to find an elite QB. However you can't build a great team by letting good players walk. With the teams that the Bills have fielded over the past fourteen years how many QBs would have made them champions? Payton, Brady, who else? There are guys that probably would have gotten them to the playoffs, but Super Bowls? Granted I'd take the playoffs right now. There are about a dozen elite guys that have won Super Bowls, about seven or eight mediocre guys, that leaves twenty eight guys that were good to very good but not elite. By elite I mean guys that can win with anybody, they are few and far between and really hard to find. I agree with this. "Elite" is thrown out a lot (even by me, see above), but I don't think elite is necessary. I think upper tier is necessary, however. The freedom given to receivers downfield, including the elimination of kill shots, have opened up passing games like never before in the history of the game. It is paramount that you have a QB who is accurate and decisive. The remainder of the team is obviously important, but the QB is the #1 position in today's NFL from which you need productivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBuff423 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Where's the beef! BFD!!! The last playff appearance in 1999. Your point wasn't that the team hasn't made the playoffs but that the BILLS have poorly Drafted over the last 10 years...I think I've countered your over-generalized statement with some specific points to contend your argument is invalid. Playoff appearance was not what you said when you said, "Right on, great post. They also lack a competent FO and scouting department. Miserable drafts for over ten years." and to argue against such a broad and inaccurate statement I gave you a summary of players Drafted by the BILLS that have proven through individual achievements and / or recognition that in fact the BILLS did not Draft "miserably over ten years"....now, how they Drafted does NOT equal playoff appearances and / or wins. Winning in the NFL is far more complex because if having a "good" Draft equaled winning, the league would look quite different....if you would like to argue the BILLS have not Drafted a good or great QB which has doomed the team the last 14 years, to that point, I would concede - although I would give EJ one more season to demonstrate whether he IS or is NOT the answer to the QB position.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Your point wasn't that the team hasn't made the playoffs but that the BILLS have poorly Drafted over the last 10 years...I think I've countered your over-generalized statement with some specific points to contend your argument is invalid. Playoff appearance was not what you said when you said, "Right on, great post. They also lack a competent FO and scouting department. Miserable drafts for over ten years." and to argue against such a broad and inaccurate statement I gave you a summary of players Drafted by the BILLS that have proven through individual achievements and / or recognition that in fact the BILLS did not Draft "miserably over ten years"....now, how they Drafted does NOT equal playoff appearances and / or wins. Winning in the NFL is far more complex because if having a "good" Draft equaled winning, the league would look quite different....if you would like to argue the BILLS have not Drafted a good or great QB which has doomed the team the last 14 years, to that point, I would concede - although I would give EJ one more season to demonstrate whether he IS or is NOT the answer to the QB position.... There are far too many logical statements in this post for this board. Edited May 7, 2014 by Bronc24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBuff423 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 There are far too many logical statements in this post for this board. Sadly....this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Demetrius Bell 7th round, has been a Pro Bowl LT for years, and yes they traded him to Philly but again, the BILLS Drafted him in the 7th round Excuse me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Winning football teams have competent coaching. The Buffalo Bills does not have competent coaching. 6-10. Nail meet head of hammer! fourteen years of maybes, and wannabes ...after last season its SSDY Excuse me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Your point wasn't that the team hasn't made the playoffs but that the BILLS have poorly Drafted over the last 10 years...I think I've countered your over-generalized statement with some specific points to contend your argument is invalid. Playoff appearance was not what you said when you said, "Right on, great post. They also lack a competent FO and scouting department. Miserable drafts for over ten years." and to argue against such a broad and inaccurate statement I gave you a summary of players Drafted by the BILLS that have proven through individual achievements and / or recognition that in fact the BILLS did not Draft "miserably over ten years"....now, how they Drafted does NOT equal playoff appearances and / or wins. Winning in the NFL is far more complex because if having a "good" Draft equaled winning, the league would look quite different....if you would like to argue the BILLS have not Drafted a good or great QB which has doomed the team the last 14 years, to that point, I would concede - although I would give EJ one more season to demonstrate whether he IS or is NOT the answer to the QB position.... I think that you omit something of importance. A draft is not ONLY determined by selecting "good" players. It matters who you pass up. When Jauron stupidly drafted McKelvin, the very next player selected was Ryan Clady. 3 picks later, Branden Albert was drafted. Do you think that waiting 5 years for him to have a good season was better than taking either of those very good players? And, the Bills were in dire need of blockers at the time. There are many other idiotic moves that the Bills made on draft day, but none as bad as 2006. That draft alone set back the franchise for many years. The bottom line is that you can point to players that are "good," but the Bills, led by people nobody else would hire, devoted the bulk of their best resources to dbs and rbs, many of who they traded or let walk away in free agency. Things look a little better these days. Even if Manuel doesn't develop, they may have themselves some fine players from the 2013 draft. Let's hope they don't screw up tomorrow and mortgage the future by trading up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts