Joe Miner Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You pretty stupidly disagreed with the premise that Bush's failed policies in the Middle East have no bearing on the current situation. Hence why I highlighted your word quibble, so you could more easily find where you went stupid. Our did you not say that either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You pretty stupidly disagreed with the premise that Bush's failed policies in the Middle East have no bearing on the current situation. Okay, you got the issue right, now, what did I say about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Okay, you got the issue right, now, what did I say about it? You need to pay more attention to what others have told you in this thread and much less attention to the stupidity you've shared with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You need to pay more attention to what others have told you in this thread and much less attention to the stupidity you've shared with us. Considering you can't even summarize the point I was making, forgive me if choose to think you're missing it. So far you have provided no evidence to the contrary, other than you are one who wishes to subscribe to a group-think mentality rather than doing your own critical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Go back to the OP. Earlier in the thread the role of Bush's failed policies in the Middle East were brought up and dismissed as having no bearing on the current situation. That's false and that's the only quibble I've had in this thread. How much of a bearing it plays is completely up for debate but to pretend it doesn't exist or have an impact is dangerously ignorant. It does have an impact on our nation's ability to take the moral high ground on ANY invasion when we stood up and loudly made a case for invasion which turned out to be at best wrong and at worst fabricated. This reality, which cannot be ignored, makes it very difficult to make a non-violent, non-sanction backed plea to the people of Crimea and Ukraine (and Russia itself) about what Putin is really up to. True change can only come from within, not from the outside, and we have lost the ability to communicate our ideals as a nation without raising suspicion. Our actions in Iraq have taken away what was once a powerful tool in our geopolitical toolbox and it's being demonstrated in black and white through the propaganda wars going on in Crimea, the Ukraine, Russia and Europe proper. That's it. Nothing deeper. You seem to be either in denial that this is a reality or dismissive of its importance. Worse, you are spinning that by pointing this out I am somehow excusing Putin or the old Soviet empire when I have said no such thing. You also are spinning that I believe public opinion is the end all be all in trump cards. It's not, and I've never said otherwise. My name may begin with a G but it doesn't end with atorman. It has nothing to do with facts. It has everything to do with how you interpret and analyze those facts and use them to make your case. Moral equivalence in an invasion? Who, other than you is bringing it up? Note that the only people who are using the Iraq pretext are Russia apologists who are aligned with Putin, which at this moment, are Putin, Russians and China. And, looks like you. Tell me of these multitudes of Europeans who are saying that US has no moral standing to preach about Putin's invasion, when all of Europe is essentially on its heels at the prospect of a mini USSR recombination by brute force. And honestly, what in the world does this mean This reality, which cannot be ignored, makes it very difficult to make a non-violent, non-sanction backed plea to the people of Crimea and Ukraine (and Russia itself) about what Putin is really up to. Do you truly believe that if US (and other nations) did not invade Iraq, the Russian people would listen to us? Because that's how I'm interpreting what you're saying. And if it's not what you're saying, then you should clarify exactly what you mean, and explain how an international thug would behave any differently than he has for the last 14 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Considering you can't even summarize the point I was making, forgive me if choose to think you're missing it. So far you have provided no evidence to the contrary, other than you are one who wishes to subscribe to a group-think mentality rather than doing your own critical thinking. Critical thinking, much like this topic, is another arena in which you can display your ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-ukraine-carries-the-echoes-of-sudetenland/2014/03/10/36ba5b6c-a873-11e3-8599-ce7295b6851c_story.html Teachable moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 http://www.washingto...851c_story.html Teachable moment? I think you need to re-watch this and re-examine your philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 ...Tell me of these multitudes of Europeans who are saying that US has no moral standing to preach about Putin's invasion, when all of Europe is essentially on its heels at the prospect of a mini USSR recombination by brute force. Because, despite your thinking to the contrary, it's not one sided on the ground in those countries. There isn't a unified front amongst the population of our allies or the Ukraine, forget Russia. Just like here in the states where you have loonies running around saying Putin's not so bad -- loonies who divide what should be a united front -- there are two sides to the argument going on right now all throughout Europe. And you may think they all think the same, but I assure you they do not. And the younger generations, the ones who are more connected to social media and the reddits of the world than their older counterparts, grew up not knowing what the hell the Soviet Union was in any other form than a history book or a story from their father or grandfather. To that same generation, their major exposure to American foreign policy resulted in a decade long disaster that they are still paying the bill for and that makes them willing to believe Putin's spin and doubt our own. And don't think these are teenagers. They are in their 20s and 30s and are in positions of influence. If you want to stop Putin without anyone dropping bombs, sooner or later you are going to need the people behind you on the ground there. Right now, we have more than our share of haters who are throwing serious shade. Do you truly believe that if US (and other nations) did not invade Iraq, the Russian people would listen to us? Because that's how I'm interpreting what you're saying. And if it's not what you're saying... It's not what I'm saying and never has been what I'm saying. Critical thinking, much like this topic, is another arena in which you can display your ignorance. It's true, it is an arena where I can display my ignorance. It's also an arena where I could pretend to think you have more than a two cylinder engine on top of those shoulders of yours. But I won't, and haven't. Thanks for the attempted slam. Come back when you've sharpened your verbal machete and try again please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) It's not what I'm saying and never has been what I'm saying. Except that you just repeated it again above. And if these connected Russian millennials still support Putin after Beslan, Georgia & Ukraine, and they use the excuse that he's doing it to protect the motherland from bad western influences, then they deserve everything that's coming to them. It's no wonder that any Russian with an independent mind gets the hell out of that country as soon as he can get his walking papers. PS - how in the world are the Russians still paying for a decade long failure of US foreign policy? Edited March 12, 2014 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Except that you just repeated it again above. And if these connected Russian millennials still support Putin after Beslan, Georgia & Ukraine, and they use the excuse that he's doing it to protect the motherland from bad western influences, then they deserve everything that's coming to them. It's no wonder that any Russian with an independent mind gets the hell out of that country as soon as he can get his walking papers. PS - how in the world are the Russians still paying for a decade long failure of US foreign policy? Much like Obama, you just can't understand his message. What he keeps saying, isn't what he's saying. So even though he keeps bringing up Bush, and he keeps bringing up Iraq, and even though he keeps mentioning that Obama has inherited a bad global image of the US, and even though he's said that the poor perception of the US by the rest of the work has limited Obama' options in dealing with Russia, and even though he's said that therefore this mess is partly Bush's fault, none of that is really what he's saying. This is on top of all the actual facts of the current situation and the process leading up to it over the past several years that have already been mentioned in this thread and in some cases pointed out specifically to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Except that you just repeated it again above. And if these connected Russian European millennials ... That's the issue we're having. You're talking about Russians exclusively. I'm not. I am talking about the continent itself. Much like Obama, you just can't understand his message. What he keeps saying, isn't what he's saying. So even though he keeps bringing up Bush, and he keeps bringing up Iraq, and even though he keeps mentioning that Obama has inherited a bad global image of the US, and even though he's said that the poor perception of the US by the rest of the work has limited Obama' options in dealing with Russia, and even though he's said that therefore this mess is partly Bush's fault, none of that is really what he's saying. This is on top of all the actual facts of the current situation and the process leading up to it over the past several years that have already been mentioned in this thread and in some cases pointed out specifically to him. Stop trying to pretend to be smart. It's not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Stop trying to pretend to be smart. Are you new here? That is all of us here's raison d'etre. There is only one poster on PPP that is actually smart and that's gatorman. He's outsmarted us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 That's the issue we're having. You're talking about Russians exclusively. I'm not. I am talking about the continent itself. Then they have even less of an excuse. Iraq, for all its faults was a decade ago, and had multinational but not universal support. If they can't differentiate between America's actions and what Putin has been doing, there's no sense convincing them otherwise. I could see them using Grenada or throwing out Noriega as examples of American aggression. But since they're too lazy to do very basic historical checks and just parrot whatever the friggin Guardian spoon feeds them, they can mire in their ageless continental tribes and clans until they finally kill each other off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Then they have even less of an excuse. Iraq, for all its faults was a decade ago, and had multinational but not universal support. If they can't differentiate between America's actions and what Putin has been doing, there's no sense convincing them otherwise. I could see them using Grenada or throwing out Noriega as examples of American aggression. But since they're too lazy to do very basic historical checks and just parrot whatever the friggin Guardian spoon feeds them, they can mire in their ageless continental tribes and clans until they finally kill each other off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Are you new here? That is all of us here's raison d'etre. There is only one poster on PPP that is actually smart and that's gatorman. He's outsmarted us all. Dammit! I've been had! :lol: Then they have even less of an excuse. Iraq, for all its faults was a decade ago, and had multinational but not universal support. If they can't differentiate between America's actions and what Putin has been doing, there's no sense convincing them otherwise. They definitely have less of an excuse. You're right. I could see them using Grenada or throwing out Noriega as examples of American aggression. But since they're too lazy to do very basic historical checks and just parrot whatever the friggin Guardian spoon feeds them, they can mire in their ageless continental tribes and clans until they finally kill each other off. Serious question, are you an isolationist at heart or do you think we have a role to play in keeping peace on the continent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The fact remains that short of physical confrontation with Putin, there is little we can do. Obama has shown what he is made of and he is lacking. Putin knows that any threats out of DC are empty and he can ignore them. There is something that we can do though. Drill, drill, drill and threaten his monopoly over Europe's energy imports. With the vast amounts of energy reserves that we have here in NA we can scare the schit out of him just by making world energy dominance our unwritten goal. While his power is in restricting energy to those that might oppose him our power can come from making energy more abundant and less expensive. Whose side is the rest of the world going to be on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Serious question, are you an isolationist at heart or do you think we have a role to play in keeping peace on the continent? Why would you think I'm an isolationist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Why would you think I'm an isolationist? I don't think you are based on the majority of your posts but just wanted to be certain I wasn't reading something into your posts that wasn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I don't think you are based on the majority of your posts but just wanted to be certain I wasn't reading something into your posts that wasn't there. What you're seeing now is the direct result of an "isolationist by incompetence" foreign policy. How's that working out so far? Convenient time for Putin to start troop maneuvers on east Ukrainian border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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