Regionalization

[Kirby Jackson]

They play 7 home games!! If you cannot pack the stadium 7 times its a problem. They have 2 legitimate sellouts. I'm sorry but I agree with Russ, that's pathetic. Their counterparts around the league get much better support (someone above mentioned Cleveland as a good example). The norm in the NFL is sellouts and waiting lists. this is in part because of the leagues popularity and in part the fact that it is only 8 times a year. Obviously winning helps but if people are only going to support the team when they win we should just be Dolphins fans.

[May Day 10]

The team already has a very strong regional draw, so I agree with your post, but to make it clear, giving away a much needed home game was not a contributor to this as russ brandon wants everyone to believe. This whole BS series was to prep western new yorkers on the idea that a new owner will pry this team from it's birthplace in the near future.

 

I cant argue too much against it... but there are also Detroitses Clevelandses and New Orleanses out there. I think in the NFL there is enough for everyone including Buffalo. At some point the bubble will pop and they will need the heritage and the fans.

 

 

I think it was a mistake to allow the Jets to hit CNY before Buffalo and unopposed.

[May Day 10]

They play 7 home games!! If you cannot pack the stadium 7 times its a problem. They have 2 legitimate sellouts. I'm sorry but I agree with Russ, that's pathetic. Their counterparts around the league get much better support (someone above mentioned Cleveland as a good example). The norm in the NFL is sellouts and waiting lists. this is in part because of the leagues popularity and in part the fact that it is only 8 times a year. Obviously winning helps but if people are only going to support the team when they win we should just be Dolphins fans.

 

really?

 

http://www.denverpos...-just-also-rans

 

looks like many teams struggling at the gate

 

http://espn.go.com/n.../_/sort/homePct

 

 

I can go on ticketmaster right now and buy tickets for Sundays games in Cincinnati and New England

 

 

 

and by my count it is "legitimate" sellouts: NE, CAR, and BALT. I cant believe our "marketing genious" GM is making us defend ourselves

 

 

the league's marketing arm successfully portrays a false image of 100% sellouts which is not the case

 

 

 

and # of games is insignificant. The Sabres normally sell out 41, or as close as possible without a great product... only because they have been relevant in the past decade

 

 

Attendance dropping and shows plainly that winning teams sell out, and teams that stink dont

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-attendance-numbers-dropping-football-losing-popularity-fans-025400400--nfl.html

Edited December 6, 2013 by May Day 10

[Webster Guy]

Boston household income is over 70k per year. Dallas is 56k per year. Both areas have many more residents that WNY, I will let you look up Buffalo metro income on your own. There are 20k unsold Miami Tickets. If there is no regionalization there is no NFL in Buffalo

It's existed just fine for the last 4 plus decades without the toronto game. your logic is flawed.

[BillnutinHouston]

The NFL brand may have grown just a bit since then.

Apparently not in Buffalo. Since the 90s the stadium capacity actually shrunk by 6-8,000 seats and Brandon still needs to manufacture sellouts.

 

I sense a lot of fan defensiveness in these discussions, and I wish people would get over that. Brandon hasn't ever bashed Bills fans, he's simply answering the questions he's asked with facts.

 

The cold hard facts may be tough to take, but you can bet that those facts (especially revenue numbers) are going to matter plenty to the next owner (in fact, much more to the new debt-laden owner) than they matter to Brandon or Mr. Wilson. I hope many fans who don't buy tickets realize this before it's too late. And I say this as a remote club seat holder.

Edited December 6, 2013 by BillnutinHouston

[May Day 10]

Apparently not in Buffalo. Since the 90s the stadium capacity actually shrunk by 6-8,000 seats and Brandon still needs to manufacture sellouts.

 

 

do you think it may have anything to do with there will be graduating seniors this year who have never witnessed a Bills playoff win (and probably dont remember a playoff game)?

 

not many fan bases in all North American sports can withstand that sort of "neglect".

[Kirby Jackson]

Apparently not in Buffalo. Since the 90s the stadium capacity actually shrunk by 6-8,000 seats and Brandon still needs to manufacture sellouts.

 

I sense a lot of fan defensiveness in these discussions, and I wish people would get over that. Brandon hasn't ever bashed Bills fans, he's simply answering the questions he's asked with facts.

 

The cold hard facts may be tough to take, but you can bet that those facts (especially revenue numbers) are going to matter plenty to the next owner (in fact, much more to the new debt-laden owner) than they matter to Brandon or Mr. Wilson. I hope many fans who don't buy tickets realize this before it's too late. And I say this as a remote club seat holder.

 

This x 1,000,000,000

 

Well said Billsnut

 

 

 

do you think it may have anything to do with there will be graduating seniors this year who have never witnessed a Bills playoff win (and probably dont remember a playoff game)?

 

not many fan bases in all North American sports can withstand that sort of "neglect".

 

I agree that is a part of it which speaks to the dwindling fan base. The fact is that the stadium has shrunk, the number of home games is down to 7, the Bills region has grown and their attendance has gone down. Those are all facts that I am sure the next owner will want some answers to. They will not just accept, "we've been bad for a while" as the reason that the team is not getting support.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Kirby Jackson

[Jauronimo]

Apparently not in Buffalo. Since the 90s the stadium capacity actually shrunk by 6-8,000 seats and Brandon still needs to manufacture sellouts.

 

I sense a lot of fan defensiveness in these discussions, and I wish people would get over that. Brandon hasn't ever bashed Bills fans, he's simply answering the questions he's asked with facts.

 

The cold hard facts may be tough to take, but you can bet that those facts (especially revenue numbers) are going to matter plenty to the next owner (in fact, much more to the new debt-laden owner) than they matter to Brandon or Mr. Wilson. I hope many fans who don't buy tickets realize this before it's too late. And I say this as a remote club seat holder.

Removing seats during renovation to add more expensive, club level seats and suites is not indicative of waning demand for football in the Buffalo market. Making inroads into the Canadian market isn't indicative of waning demand either.

 

Were it true waning demand they could just tarp over 20,000 seats like the Raiders did at the old Coliseum.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jauronimo

[All_Pro_Bills]

This x 1,000,000,000

 

Well said Billsnut

 

 

 

I agree that is a part of it which speaks to the dwindling fan base. The fact is that the stadium has shrunk, the number of home games is down to 7, the Bills region has grown and their attendance has gone down. Those are all facts that I am sure the next owner will want some answers to. They will not just accept, "we've been bad for a while" as the reason that the team is not getting support.

Winning would be solution #1 for solving any attendence problems. But another part of the problem might be the Bills ticket sales policy. At least it is for me.

 

My story is that two times a year we used to come from out of town and attend a home game in September or October. Generally, a party of 7 or 8 people. My group was part of a bigger group that would get tickets through group sales. We did this for 11 seasons. We stopped coming up when they changed the policy to give season ticket holders first crack at individual home game tickets. For a year or two we had a season ticket holder get us tickets but that stopped when that person didn't renew their tickets. So now if I want to get seats to a September and October game I need to go to after-market to get tickets where prices have been higher and getting 7 or 8 tickets together difficult.

 

Maybe this policy is good for the team and season ticket holders but it isn't for people like me. So instead of coming into town and spending maybe $1500 or $2000 between us in the local economy on lodging, food, and entertainment, we stay home and watch the games on NFL Sunday Ticket at my house.

 

So the Bills want to regionalize the team but they have a counter-productive ticket policy that gives those non-season ticket holder 'new' fans absolutely no opportunity to buy individual tickets to a game or two (except in December when they are either eliminated from contention or the weather is unpredictable) and then someday perhaps convert to a full season ticket holder.

Edited December 6, 2013 by All_Pro_Bills

[BillnutinHouston]

 

Removing seats during renovation to add more expensive, club level seats and suites is not indicative of waning demand for football in the Buffalo market. Making inroads into the Canadian market isn't indicative of waning demand either.

 

Were it true waning demand they could just tarp over 20,000 seats like the Raiders did at the old Coliseum.

Interesting opinion. I hope the next owner shares it, but more likely his focus will be more on overall revenue than simple demand. In that equation, club seat holders are far more coveted than regular seat holders (remember, in addition to the premium price, PSL revenue is not shared) and for that matter, a season ticket holder in a stronger economic region is a better revenue generator than is a Buffalo season ticket holder. All this is why Brandon talks about the Bills business mode as a "volume business" - he can't charge high prices so he needs lots of butts in the seats to offset that.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Winning would be solution #1 for solving any attendence problems. But another part of the problem might be the Bills ticket sales policy. At least it is for me.

 

My story is that two times a year we used to come from out of town and attend a home game in September or October. Generally, a party of 7 or 8 people. My group was part of a bigger group that would get tickets through group sales. We did this for 11 seasons. We stopped coming up when they changed the policy to give season ticket holders first crack at individual home game tickets. For a year or two we had a season ticket holder get us tickets but that stopped when that person didn't renew their tickets. So now if I want to get seats to a September and October game I need to go to after-market to get tickets where prices have been higher and getting 7 or 8 tickets together difficult.

 

Maybe this policy is good for the team and season ticket holders but it isn't for people like me. So instead of coming into town and spending maybe $1500 or $2000 between us in the local economy on lodging, food, and entertainment, we stay home and watch the games on NFL Sunday Ticket at my house.

 

So the Bills want to regionalize the team but they have a counter-productive ticket policy that gives those non-season ticket holder 'new' fans absolutely no opportunity to buy individual tickets to a game or two (except in December when they are either eliminated from contention or the weather is unpredictable) and then someday perhaps convert to a full season ticket holder.

 

I hear ya. From their standpoint they are leveraging their highest demand games to funnel people to lesser demand games and to upsell them into season ticket packages. It makes perfect sense.

 

The hard part is that the weather can be so unpredictable as the season goes along in WNY. It's tough for a group to come from Albany (just an example) in December if they may be driving 5 hours in a blizzard.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Kirby Jackson

[Jauronimo]

Interesting opinion. I hope the next owner shares it, but more likely his focus will be more on overall revenue than simple demand. In that equation, club seat holders are far more coveted than regular seat holders (remember, in addition to the premium price, PSL revenue is not shared) and for that matter, a season ticket holder in a stronger economic region is a better revenue generator than is a Buffalo season ticket holder. All this is why Brandon talks about the Bills business mode as a "volume business" - he can't charge high prices so he needs lots of butts in the seats to offset that.

Tough to increase revenue without demand. They're sorta linked like that. Season ticket holders in stronger economic regions are only better revenue generators if in fact they're generating more revenue than season tickets in Buffalo. Which teams don't need a lot of butts in the seats? They're all volume businesses.

 

It seems we've strayed rather far from whether or not demand for NFL football has declined in Buffalo, as you've argued, and whether failing to sell out a playoff game 20 years ago means the same will be true today.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jauronimo

[Gordio]

 

 

Agree and maybe it is my 8 years working in pro sports but I am so sick of the "if they win they will come argument." The Bills are obviously an extreme example because they have been bad for 15 years. I cut them a little slack. I guess that I tend to look at it from the other side but I do feel fortunate to have been raised in 1 of the 32 NFL markets. If we only care when the team wins than maybe we are not as good a fan base as we think we are? The Cubs have been awful for 100 years and people still passionately follow them. Same goes for the Toronto Maple Leafs, Golden State Warriors (although they look good now) and the Kansas City Chiefs.

 

If people think that boycotting or whatever is sending a message to any front office you are sorely mistaken. In fact, it has the absolute reverse effect. It shows an unstable market and makes them as a target for people looking to move the franchise. The owners age makes then a target already but don't think for a second if this team received the support of Pittsburgh that people would consider moving then (regardless of the lease situation).

 

I am saying that whether or not any of us support the franchise it has no impact on decisions that they are going to make. Every decision is made with the intention of building a winner. The unfortunate part is that they have been really bad at that. If you choose to no longer support the franchise because of the heartache that they cause by all means feel free to walk away. If you choose to stop supporting the team because you are trying to "send you a message" it's not going to work.

 

Sorry man but history in sports has shown us that most fan bases will not support a loser. Sure there are exceptions, but for the most part it holds true. Add in the fact that the Bills have not been to the playoffs in 14 years & it is amazing they get the attendance that they do. Look at even the Red Sox 2 years ago, they were horrible(after winning 2 WS in the decade) & they were playing in front of 15,000 at the end of August/September. I guaranty once the Patriots fall & are not as successful, that place will be half filled most Sundays. Using KC & Pittsburgh as examples are bad examples. They may have 1 or 2 bad years every so often but they never go into a decade of rebuilding & not competing for the playoffs like the Bills have.

[vorpma]

How about the Bills win games. If they started being good, you'd see more fans.

 

It's not exactly a mystery why the Patriots and Steelers have so many fans right now, both teams have been good for a decade+.

 

Dallas has a huge fanbase too, and they are usually pretty good (and absolutely dominant during certain eras).

 

Winning sells tickets. Winning sells jerseys.

Right on Dorkington - the best posting on this board in a long time.

[Kirby Jackson]

I think that we all know that if you win you get better support. No one is arguing against that. What I am saying (and I believe a few others) is that the revenue and attendance numbers that the team produces will be important to the new owner. They are not going to say "well you sucked so its okay that the numbers are low." I worked intimately on the sale of the NBA team I worked for (twice). All that was being spewed at us from above was raise $$. The new owners will want to see a market that can support the team in all situations. If not they will look to other markets where perhaps they can make more money. They can get more in sponsorships, PSLs, suite and ticket revenue in a market lie Toronto or LA. I don't like that more than anyone but it is reality. If they are going to keep a team in WNY it is because it is a profitable and stable market -not because it is here they will make the most money. My concern is that our current level of support does not guarantee the team remaining in WNY.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Kirby Jackson

[BillnutinHouston]

I think that we all know that if you win you get better support. No one is arguing against that. What I am saying (and I believe a few others) is that the revenue and attendance numbers that the team produces will be important to the new owner. They are not going to say "well you sucked so its okay that the numbers are low." I worked intimately on the sale of the NBA team I worked for (twice). All that was being spewed at us from above was raise $$. The new owners will want to see a market that can support the team in all situations. If not they will look to other markets where perhaps they can make more money. They can get more in sponsorships, PSLs, suited and ticket revenue in a market lie Toronto or LA. I don't like that more than anyone but it is reality. If they are going to keep a team in WNY it is because it is a profitable and stable market -not because it is here they will make the most money. My concern is that our current level of support does not guarantee the team remaining in WNY.

Thank you - concisely stated and based on experience.

 

One thing I would add is, these revenue pressures will only intensify if/when the new owner demands a new stadium, assuming he has a stake in the financing. If we think Wilson is money-driven, we ain't seen nothing yet.

 

Edit: Kirby, the last line of your edited post above echoes my concern. We simply can't count on a home town rescue by a Pegula type, this I why regionalization is so important to the future of football in WNY.

Edited December 6, 2013 by BillnutinHouston

[PearlHowardman]

I think it was a mistake to allow the Jets to hit CNY before Buffalo and unopposed.

 

I live in Syracuse. I don't see the Jets training camp having much of an impact on NFL fans here.

 

In CNY the Buffalo Bills compete with the SU Orange football and basketball teams.

 

Having Syracuse native Russ Brandon and most of the Buffalo Bills coaching staff coming from SU, it's a no-brainer that the Bills should be able to maximize their relationship with Syracuse University and Syracuse itself.

[May Day 10]

I dont think that a random person is going to buy the team, then look at data to consider whether or not to keep them in WNY

 

Its going to be simple: A bidder(s) who will keep the team local vs bidder(s) determined to move them to Toronto. My money is a bidder to Toronto. More $, more potential corporate dollars, and I feel the NFL is itching to get up there and make Buffalo a memory.

 

 

Us selling out games at this point isnt even a factor besides providing the NFL with a green light to paint us a "non-deserving" to the rest of the NFL fans (and apparently a few of our own).

 

 

 

 

 

back to the topic, I do feel like they have regionalized pretty well. There is room for improvement, but it is like scraping an empty barrel without the wins. Success will bring in fans from all over.

Edited December 6, 2013 by May Day 10

[Kirby Jackson]

I dont think that a random person is going to buy the team, then look at data to consider whether or not to keep them in WNY

 

Its going to be simple: A bidder(s) who will keep the team local vs bidder(s) determined to move them to Toronto. My money is a bidder to Toronto. More $, more potential corporate dollars, and I feel the NFL is itching to get up there and make Buffalo a memory.

 

 

Us selling out games at this point isnt even a factor besides providing the NFL with a green light to paint us a "non-deserving" to the rest of the NFL fans (and apparently a few of our own).

 

 

 

 

 

back to the topic, I do feel like they have regionalized pretty well. There is room for improvement, but it is like scraping an empty barrel without the wins. Success will bring in fans from all over.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said except the "non-deserving" part. If anything I am saying the exact opposite. I think that the team has been taken for granted and as a right instead of a privilege. I wish that everyone would appreciate and support the team to increase the chances of them remaining long term.

 

Maybe you are right and that it will not matter but it certainly helps if the revenue numbers are higher and stability is perceived. A new owner may forgo a little more revenue potential elsewhere to be in a place that he knows will support the franchise.

[NoSaint]

 

 

I hear ya. From their standpoint they are leveraging their highest demand games to funnel people to lesser demand games and to upsell them into season ticket packages. It makes perfect sense.

 

The hard part is that the weather can be so unpredictable as the season goes along in WNY. It's tough for a group to come from Albany (just an example) in December if they may be driving 5 hours in a blizzard.

 

But on that note, if only two games were true sellouts- was it really that hard or that pricey to get tickets?

 

Additionally, without giving perks to the already slim 43k season ticket holders-- I can only imagine what December sales would look like. For perspective, the browns are in the 50k+ range, and I don't think anyone's calling them perennial winners in a thriving market.

 

 

Really though, while I don't like the Toronto series, it's irked me a bit how many people have raged about giving away the crowd support and how it would've made a difference Sunday.... Go show up and yell in Toronto too! I know that doesn't work for everyone but I know a lot of "die hard" fans chose not to go to the biggest game of the year over some generally easy to overcome reasons.