The Bills defense so far

[Alphadawg7]

Last year they allowed 363 yards per game (146 yards rushing), which is pretty bad -- although not as bad as the previous season. In 2011, they gave up 371 yards per game and 170 ypg rushing.

 

This year, through three games they're giving 417 yards per game and 155 ypg rushing.

 

Is it me or do Bills fans struggle with logic? I dont care about stats, our Defense is MUUUUUUCHHHH improved from last year and anyone with two eyes and a brain can see that.

 

1. This defense has played better in the 2nd halves of each game, coincidentally so has the offense. The slow offensive starts put more pressure on the D in the first half.

 

2. This D has played every game without its Pro Bowl S and potentially pro bowl #1 corner.

 

3. This D has played 2 games without its #3 corner (other starting corner while Gilmore is out) Brooks.

 

4. This D played this last game without its top 3 DB's...without its starting Safeties...without its backup safeties (A. Williams moved to DB after more injuries). That means we were THIRD string or lower at ALL the Defensive Back positions this week. Geezus people, thats a pretty bad scenario and why Geno was able to have a decent game, yet we still picked him off TWICE.

 

5. We have not been able to Blitz like we want...why...because we have NO DEFENSIVE BACKS! You can not bring the house if you dont trust your secondary.

 

6. Run defense has been hurt by loss of secondary. We have had to back more to try and help the coverage, and that opens up lanes. But we have seen the D step up at times in obvious rushing situations like the big 4th down stop yesterday.

 

7. Our TWO STARTING DE's were hurt yesterday...Mario and Carrington. Yet we still hung in the game.

 

This board needs to get a damn grip. EJ is coming off being named rookie of the week and 2 overall solid performances after missing most of preseason with a knee injury, and now people are piling on him after one bad game where the OL and WR's failed EJ miserably. People are piling all over the D despite a plethora of injuries and the fact the D has actually played pretty good considering all the injuries and kept games close even when offense was struggling. People are also attacking CJ who had a bad game after a horrific family tragedy, but then bounced back in week 2, but got hurt and struggled yesterday when there were NO RUNNING LANES of any kind created by the OL nor any good run plays even called for him, just draws right into the mouth of a great run D.

 

I almost just cant even take this board anymore, its become so ridiculous.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Alphadawg7

[Dorkington]

Passing touch downs of 51 and 69 yards = long, drawn out drives in which our defense simply couldn't stop them. Don't ya know? And the other touch down? The one set up by the 45 yard pass? Also a drive in which our defense was getting repeatedly "gashed."

 

So there's no possible way that maybe, just maybe, the Bills were thinking run on any of those plays due to the fact that the Jets were having success on the ground? There's no possible way that successful running can lead to big pass plays? I saw a lot of cover one sort of defense last night (and again, I could be completely wrong, as I'm not an expert), which tells me they were stacking the box for the run and pass rush.

 

Dave, you and I are talking about different things. I'm not disappointed in the way the Bills played the run last night, but apparently I'm an idiot because I can't see the per rush average and number of 5+ yard runs in the stat sheet. Silly me, I just watched the game and saw a running attack that did not impact the score. The Bills lost because their defensive backfield is a shambles, and their offense was poorly prepared.

 

I never once called you an idiot. I said we have differing opinions.

[eball]

I like how you try and use a very very selective stat to try and prove your point. Running the ball for a 1st down isn't the only way of having a successful running game. It's called down and distance. You act like rushing for 1st downs is the only thing that matters in a successful ground attack. If you are successful running the ball on 1st or 2nd down you set up manageable distances for 1st downs. Those manageable distances can be converted via that pass. It's all interconnected. This is basic football. I mean basic.

 

Talk about absurd.

 

Dude -- go to the play-by-play and prove your point. I've done so with mine. All you want to do is point at the box score and say, "182 yards rushing! They stink!"

 

The Jets were 5-14 on 3rd down. The great running attack didn't set them up too well I guess?

 

I'll argue this logic with you all day long.

[apuszczalowski]

I saw a game in which the run set up the pass. The run is the foundation of the Jets offense, or at least was yesterday. The abuse of Rogers was basically the icing on the cake.

 

We watched the same game, and saw different things, I don't see what's so ridiculous about that.

Watching and comprehending what you are seeing seem to be 2 seperate things.........

[ajzepp]

It's an assessment of the unit that the Bills are fielding on defense right now. Unfortunately, it's decimated by injury, but those are the cards the team has been dealt. The coordination strikes me as much better than last year, but the defense right now is bad. Yes, it has has excellent talent, and if everyone was healthy I suspect that they'd be a lot better. However, it's the NFL and they're not. I realize that have had some really bad luck on the injury front. There's no denying that. Again, though, they're not a good defense right now, and no wizardry from Pettine can mask it, try as he might.

 

The Bills gave up 513 yards yesterday. That's the most a Rex Ryan coached team has ever had.

 

So basically what you're saying is that the Defense isn't playing as well as they should be because they've been decimated by injuries, and that you expect them to improve once healthy.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that point, to be honest.

[The Big Cat]

So there's no possible way that maybe, just maybe, the Bills were thinking run on any of those plays due to the fact that the Jets were having success on the ground? There's no possible way that successful running can lead to big pass plays? I saw a lot of cover one sort of defense last night (and again, I could be completely wrong, as I'm not an expert), which tells me they were stacking the box for the run and pass rush.

 

 

 

I never once called you an idiot. I said we have differing opinions.

 

 

May be, just may be that was the case. Sure. Or may be, just may be. as Alphadawg points out...AGAIN...we were third string or worse at EVERY DB position.

 

Watching and comprehending what you are seeing seem to be 2 seperate things.........

 

Ugh...I just don't...this is exhausting.

[ajzepp]

4. This D played this last game without its top 3 DB's...without its starting Safeties...without its backup safeties (A. Williams moved to DB after more injuries). That means we were THIRD string or lower at ALL the Defensive Back positions this week. Geezus people, thats a pretty bad scenario and why Geno was able to have a decent game, yet we still picked him off TWICE.

 

 

 

 

[Orton's Arm]

I don't think that has a ton do with it. I think the bigger issue is terrible 3rd down stoppage rate. Opposing teams are 23 for 50 so far -- 46 percent. That leads to more offensive plays for the opponent.

 

The one bright spot is that they're allowing 5.3 ypp this year. That's not good, but it's better than the 5.6 in 2012 and 5.9 in 2011.

 

I like the stats you're using more than yards per game stats. The problem with yards per game is that if the offense inflates the number of plays per game (for example by going no huddle), the defense's stats will be harmed through not fault of its own.

[MDH]

Eball, I'm wondering, what is it you're really saying? That the Bills can stop the run when they really feel like it? That sometimes they just don't try and stop it? That they say to themselves, "self, you know we could stop it if we wanted to but it's really not going to hurt us right now so let's let them gain some yards!" Or are you questioning their effort? To me that's an even bigger insult. Because that's what your argument comes down to.

 

Sure, they've made a few short yardage stops this year. That alone doesn't equal the run defense being good or an opponents running game not hurting them.

 

And as Dave pointed out, it's not just this game. They haven't stopped the run in ANY game. They allowed the Panthers to march down the field in crunch time and burn 5:30 off the clock and pad their lead and they allowed the Pats march down the field for a game winning FG (the key play in that drive was a big run btw.)

 

Dude -- go to the play-by-play and prove your point. I've done so with mine. All you want to do is point at the box score and say, "182 yards rushing! They stink!"

 

The Jets were 5-14 on 3rd down. The great running attack didn't set them up too well I guess?

 

I'll argue this logic with you all day long.

 

That's not all I did. I had a long post where I spoke to how the Jets run game helped their pass game. It also helped their own defense because it kept them off the field. And I did go play by play through it and listed the 14 runs of 5 yards or better. And yeah 182 yards allows stinks! That alone is better than your argument of, "they didn't run for that many 1st downs." There is no making it look good, despite your best efforts.

[KOKBILLS]

Different sport, but this so reminds me of the Sabres in 2006 losing their top 5 D-men or something like that, yet still managing to hang on and nearly beat the Hurricanes in game 7. At some point injuries aren't simply a convenient excuse.

 

Pettine needs to come up with a scheme this week to protect his secondary. That will prove his worth as a coordinator.

 

 

I'm much more inclined to agree with this take than any other...Sometimes you have to go with what you see more than anything...This Defense looks much better to me overall...But the injuries are taking their toll...You can't hide for long in the NFL...Especially when you're going up against an experienced OC who has had some success in this league...The fact is for most of the game yesterday the Bills were playing without 4 of their top 5 DB's...That simply cannot be ignored...IMHO it cost them the game...Especially because it seems as if Pettine was a bit stubborn on giving Rogers help over the top...

 

And to the OP...It should also be noted that the Bills first 3 opponents last year included KC and Cleveland...Two woefully poor Offenses...And this team has allowed 6 fewer points than that one did through 3 games...

[Dorkington]

Alright, since I'm in the minority. I acknowledge that the Bills defense is good, and that I do not comprehend football. Cheers, folks.

 

Unlike 'scopes, I'll actually go away. Sorry for disagreeing with people.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Dorkington

[The Big Cat]

Alright, since I'm in the minority. I acknowledge that the Bills defense is good, and that I do not comprehend football. Cheers, folks.

 

Unlike 'scopes, I'll actually go away. Sorry for disagreeing with people.

 

Three games does not an accurate profile make. That said, we all just have to go with our guts on this one, and in this case, it seems perception and reality just aren't sharing the same space from fan to fan.

 

However, I do know that last year during the Titans game, I was completely unmoved by Brad Smith's KR for TD. Why? Because our defense was absolutely deplorable in that game, and anything we did to put points on the board was sure to be offset by the inability of Wanny and Co to stop...anything.

 

I simply don't bemoan the defense like that this year. I find myself having those feelings for the offense, instead.

 

The unit just isn't as futile as it has been for the past few years. They actually make plays and look like they belong on the field, for once.

[JPS]

No, unfortunately there are a group of you who are only looking at statistics blindly, rather than taking into account the ebb and flow of the game and what was actually happening. At no time did the Jets "pound the Bills into submission" with their running attack -- and particularly not in the 2nd half when the game was in the balance.

Yeah, I didn't even see the game. Just looked at the stats. To me, the Jets did what they wanted yesterday. They ran enough (150 yards ain't chopped liver) to bring the linebackers close to the line. And then the passing game was wide open. I am not fooled by a close score. The Bills lines got their ass kicked yesterday and that showed up in the run offense, run defense, pass D.

 

The only reason that game is close is due to the Jets being undisciplined. The rest of this is optimistic and hopeful bluster.

[Webster Guy]

Guys, perhaps it's just me, but I don't think the run defense yesterday was bad at all. The overall numbers look ugly, but how many "big" runs did the Jets have to gash the Bills or convert 3rd downs? Very few. Buffalo stuffed a run on 4th and short. This game was lost because of not enough pressure on the pass rush and a D-III CB being asked to cover NFL WRs.

I agree. Our run defense is not the issue. They had a ton of run run then pass on 3rd down (sometimes a long 3rd down) and get the first because Geno had time to throw and we were missing 75% of our defensive backfield to injury.

 

I think we will beat them in Buff this year when we get our defense healthy again

[Tu-Toned]

The ends were over pursuing inside, made it to easy for the Jets backs to just kick

it outside and pick up chunks. THAT did remind me of recent years and especially

Chris Kelsey.

[eball]

Eball, I'm wondering, what is it you're really saying? That the Bills can stop the run when they really feel like it? That sometimes they just don't try and stop it? That they say to themselves, "self, you know we could stop it if we wanted to but it's really not going to hurt us right now so let's let them gain some yards!" Or are you questioning their effort? To me that's an even bigger insult. Because that's what your argument comes down to.

 

Sure, they've made a few short yardage stops this year. That alone doesn't equal the run defense being good or an opponents running game not hurting them.

 

And as Dave pointed out, it's not just this game. They haven't stopped the run in ANY game. They allowed the Panthers to march down the field in crunch time and burn 5:30 off the clock and pad their lead and they allowed the Pats march down the field for a game winning FG (the key play in that drive was a big run btw.)

 

That's not all I did. I had a long post where I spoke to how the Jets run game helped their pass game. It also helped their own defense because it kept them off the field. And I did go play by play through it and listed the 14 runs of 5 yards or better. And yeah 182 yards allows stinks! That alone is better than your argument of, "they didn't run for that many 1st downs." There is no making it look good, despite your best efforts.

 

No one seems to want to answer my question, perhaps because the answer won't fit their agenda. At what time in the 2nd half of yesterday's game did the Jets' running attack hurt the Bills or kill clock, preventing them from trying to come back?

 

The answer is: at no time. The Jets had but two runs of any length, both on the first play of a series, and no third down conversions via the run. For the game the Jets had five scoring drives, of the following lengths:

 

TD -- 80 yards (70 passing, 7/23 rushing, -13 penalty) -- TD was 8-yd QB scramble

TD -- 80 yards (74 passing, 3/6 rushing)

FG -- 37 yards (10 passing, 2/7 rushing, 20 penalty) -- last play was -2 kneel-down to get into FG position

FG -- 64 yards (58 passing, 3/31 rushing, -25 penalty) -- 1st play of drive was 21-yd run

TD -- 85 yards (69 passing, 1/1 rushing, 15 penalty)

 

So on the Jets' five scoring drives they covered 346 yards -- and over 81% of those yards came through the air. The running game on those drives? Essentially non-existent. On drives during which the Jets ran "effectively" they did not score, and as noted several times in this thread, the Bills stopped the Jets on 3rd down for the majority of the 2nd half.

 

I can't break it down any more clearly than that.

 

Is giving up >500 yards of offense good? Of course not. Did the Bills' run defense play poorly? No. Those are not mutually exclusive statements, if you go beyond simply looking at the box score.

[MDH]

No one seems to want to answer my question, perhaps because the answer won't fit their agenda.

 

I answered your question in a long post above - you've ignored my answer because it doesn't fit your agenda. You also ignored my question above: what is it your'e really saying here?

[eball]

I answered your question in a long post above - you've ignored my answer because it doesn't fit your agenda. You also ignored my question above: what is it your'e really saying here?

 

What am I saying? Call it what it is -- a defense decimated in the secondary that nonetheless stopped the Jets and got off the field so the offense could try to come back. Two of the three Jet TDs were quick strikes against an overmatched CB, and all of their scoring drives included a big play (40 yards+) in the passing game. THE RUN DEFENSE WAS FINE.

[The Big Cat]

What am I saying? Call it what it is -- a defense decimated in the secondary that nonetheless stopped the Jets and got off the field so the offense could try to come back. Two of the three Jet TDs were quick strikes against an overmatched CB, and all of their scoring drives included a big play (40 yards+) in the passing game. THE RUN DEFENSE WAS FINE.

 

Yeah, but still.

[JPS]

No one seems to want to answer my question, perhaps because the answer won't fit their agenda. At what time in the 2nd half of yesterday's game did the Jets' running attack hurt the Bills or kill clock, preventing them from trying to come back?

 

The answer is: at no time. The Jets had but two runs of any length, both on the first play of a series, and no third down conversions via the run. For the game the Jets had five scoring drives, of the following lengths:

 

TD -- 80 yards (70 passing, 7/23 rushing, -13 penalty) -- TD was 8-yd QB scramble

TD -- 80 yards (74 passing, 3/6 rushing)

FG -- 37 yards (10 passing, 2/7 rushing, 20 penalty) -- last play was -2 kneel-down to get into FG position

FG -- 64 yards (58 passing, 3/31 rushing, -25 penalty) -- 1st play of drive was 21-yd run

TD -- 85 yards (69 passing, 1/1 rushing, 15 penalty)

 

So on the Jets' five scoring drives they covered 346 yards -- and over 81% of those yards came through the air. The running game on those drives? Essentially non-existent. On drives during which the Jets ran "effectively" they did not score, and as noted several times in this thread, the Bills stopped the Jets on 3rd down for the majority of the 2nd half.

 

I can't break it down any more clearly than that.

 

Is giving up >500 yards of offense good? Of course not. Did the Bills' run defense play poorly? No. Those are not mutually exclusive statements, if you go beyond simply looking at the box score.

After the Jets....yeah, the Jets rambled for about 130, the front 8 were in the box stopping the run, while the back end was getting shredded. Congrats. You make an excellent point. The Bills 2nd half run defense was wonderful. So wonderful it cost them the game.

 

How anyone could defend a defense that gave up 180 to a previously impotent running offense is beyond my abilities of optimism.