The Bills defense so far

[eball]

Yep, and yep.

 

Also, injuries are one thing, but in a system that DEPENDS on its DB's to have your THREE best CB's out AND your Pro Bowl FS out...the scheme itself is !@#$ing compromised. Yet the defense is still not the issue. This year's defense is light years improved!

 

Different sport, but this so reminds me of the Sabres in 2006 losing their top 5 D-men or something like that, yet still managing to hang on and nearly beat the Hurricanes in game 7. At some point injuries aren't simply a convenient excuse.

 

Pettine needs to come up with a scheme this week to protect his secondary. That will prove his worth as a coordinator.

[The Big Cat]

Different sport, but this so reminds me of the Sabres in 2006 losing their top 5 D-men or something like that, yet still managing to hang on and nearly beat the Hurricanes in game 7. At some point injuries aren't simply a convenient excuse.

 

Pettine needs to come up with a scheme this week to protect his secondary. That will prove his worth as a coordinator.

 

Perhaps...but now it seems like Byrd and Gilmore are both inching back to health.

 

I don't care if the discussion on this takes place here or there: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/161650-the-2013-run-defense/#entry2919665

[ajzepp]

We'll agree to disagree, I guess.

 

We're 24th in the league in rushing first downs per game. Eventually we start zeroing in on the run and get burned by the pass, is the way I see it. The fact that we can't stop the run, and that we can't get off the field on defense, imo, says that we are indeed being hurt by the run. That's not to say that our pass defense is any good, because it's not that great at the moment with our lack of DB talent (combined with our scheme depending on it), just that I disagree with the notion that our run defense is not hurting us.

 

I'll make that my final opinion on the matter.

 

I would agree with this if Wanny was still the DC. But when you have someone with an actual brain, like Pettine, I think the pass D and rush D become so interdependent and intertwined in terms of how the D is schemed, that a deficit in one creates a deficit in the other.

Edited September 23, 2013 by ajzepp

[The Big Cat]

We'll agree to disagree, I guess.

 

We're 24th in the league in rushing first downs per game. Eventually we start zeroing in on the run and get burned by the pass, is the way I see it. The fact that we can't stop the run, and that we can't get off the field on defense, imo, says that we are indeed being hurt by the run. That's not to say that our pass defense is any good, because it's not that great at the moment with our lack of DB talent (combined with our scheme depending on it), just that I disagree with the notion that our run defense is not hurting us.

 

I'll make that my final opinion on the matter.

 

League-wide rankings through three games inform one's opinion for ****.

 

Watch the games. There are very knowledgeable posters here (myself not withstanding) who see things differently than you, and they didn't require a trip to the nfl.com stats page to figure out what's going on.

[JPS]

Stop trying to find the bright spots. This defense cannot consistently stop ANYONE. The offense got their brains beat in and put up 20. The defense got gashed by the NY Jets.

 

Just stop.

[Dorkington]

League-wide rankings through three games inform one's opinion for ****.

 

Watch the games. There are very knowledgeable posters here (myself not withstanding) who see things differently than you, and they didn't require a trip to the nfl.com stats page to figure out what's going on.

 

I got the stat from TeamRankings.com, fwiw. I have watched the games. Since I have a different opinion than you, I suppose I am ignorant.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Dorkington

[eball]

I got the stat from TeamRankings.com, fwiw. I have watched the games. Since I have a different opinion than you, I suppose I am ignorant.

 

Give me one example, particularly in the 2nd half, where the Jets' ability to run the ball hurt the Bills.

[MDH]

They key word--YOUR word--is "qualify." Listen to what eball is telling you. The Jets run game did not hurt us yesterday. At all.

 

Like hell it didn't. They carried the ball 41 times and only threw it 29 (that's a 58:42 run:pass ratio). That doesn't usually work in the modern NFL. They held the ball for 34 minutes. They beat the Bills when they had -2 in turnovers and 20 penalties for 170 yards. You don't win games when you have those turnovers and penalties simply by completing 2 big pass plays.

 

What did they do the rest of the time? Pounded the Bills into submission. They beat them down, tired them out, made them commit to lots of guys to the LoS and then went up top for their scores. It was classic old school football.

 

You're looking at this just as individual scoring plays/drives. The entire offense works as a unit and they used the run to set up those pass plays yesterday. If the Bills could stop the run and made it so that the Jets weren't able to run it 41 times with proficiency the Jets would have had to rely on their pass more and the Bills could have had more guys back in coverage.

 

Only Bills fans can have a D that gives up 500 yards, is on the field for 34 minutes and say they were beaten by 2 pass plays and that Rogers is solely to blame for the loss. The entire D is a mess right now and the results are pretty much the same as the past few seasons. The run D is bad and it's costing the team whether they gave up running scores or not. Running the ball is a mindset and the Jets told the Bills D that they were their b*tch yesterday.

 

I'll say I think Dave is right, the D coordinator is better, but the D is not. At least not now. I said before the season I thought this team would be considerably better in the 2nd half of the season and I'll stick to that. Once they get these systems down and, hopefully, get players healthy we'll start to see what they can really do.

[The Big Cat]

I got the stat from TeamRankings.com, fwiw. I have watched the games. Since I have a different opinion than you, I suppose I am ignorant.

 

Then what are you arguing? That the defense was completely unable to stop them? Stats don't indicate that. That the defense was unable to stop them when it counts? Game didn't bear that out. That the Jets consistently rushed at will? Game logs and stats don't show that. That the defense didn't keep us in this game? That certainly wasn't the case.

 

What's your argument here?

[dave mcbride]

Then what are you arguing? That the defense was completely unable to stop them? Stats don't indicate that. That the defense was unable to stop them when it counts? Game didn't bear that out. That the Jets consistently rushed at will? Game logs and stats don't show that. That the defense didn't keep us in this game? That certainly wasn't the case.

 

What's your argument here?

 

Well, to be honest they weren't able to stop any of the three teams they faced when it counted. Against the Pats, they gave up a game winning drive. Against Carolina, they let them march down into easy FG position and left themselves with hardly any time on the clock. Sure, they had a great comeback, but it was highly improbable and took an epic meltdown by Kuechly and the Carolina secondary on the TD play. Finally, when they finally tied the game yesterday, they immediately gave up a bomb TD pass in which they put no pressure on the QB and left Carlos Freaking Rogers in single coverage on Santonio Holmes.

 

Like hell it didn't. They carried the ball 41 times and only threw it 29 (that's a 58:42 run:pass ratio). That doesn't usually work in the modern NFL. They held the ball for 34 minutes. They beat the Bills when they had -2 in turnovers and 20 penalties for 170 yards. You don't win games when you have those turnovers and penalties simply by completing 2 big pass plays.

 

What did they do the rest of the time? Pounded the Bills into submission. They beat them down, tired them out, made them commit to lots of guys to the LoS and then went up top for their scores. It was classic old school football.

 

You're looking at this just as individual scoring plays/drives. The entire offense works as a unit and they used the run to set up those pass plays yesterday. If the Bills could stop the run and made it so that the Jets weren't able to run it 41 times with proficiency the Jets would have had to rely on their pass more and the Bills could have had more guys back in coverage.

 

Only Bills fans can have a D that gives up 500 yards, is on the field for 34 minutes and say they were beaten by 2 pass plays and that Rogers is solely to blame for the loss. The entire D is a mess right now and the results are pretty much the same as the past few seasons. The run D is bad and it's costing the team whether they gave up running scores or not. Running the ball is a mindset and the Jets told the Bills D that they were their b*tch yesterday.

 

I'll say I think Dave is right, the D coordinator is better, but the D is not. At least not now. I said before the season I thought this team would be considerably better in the 2nd half of the season and I'll stick to that. Once they get these systems down and, hopefully, get players healthy we'll start to see what they can really do.

 

Great post.

Edited September 23, 2013 by dave mcbride

[bills1960]

God I just don't get it. How can you possibly think that the 500+ yards of offense has nothing to do with the fact we're missing our top three corners and Byrd! Not just three corners our top three corners! There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't experience a drop-off in the pass defense if you were to take away their four major secondary players.

 

Justin Rogers alone must have accounted for 250 yards allowed. He doesn't belong on the field and maybe that speaks to the fact we should have bolstered our secondary in the offseason a bit more, fine. But I also don't think we anticipated losing this many guys.

 

And now we have Dareus out, we have Carrington getting carted off, Mario possibly hurt. Give me a break. This defense has the most potential we've had in years if we could get everyone back on the field.

 

Also when you're talking about the run game, did you even think to consider that Powell carried the ball nearly 30 times and we had to drop more people into coverage to make up for the loss in the secondary. I feel like no one is even considering this.

Edited September 23, 2013 by bills1960

[eball]

This thread is maddening. I challenge any of you "the run defense still stinks" posters to go and look at the play-by-play. In the 2nd half the Jets had TWO rushing first downs -- both came on the first play of the series. One drive ended in a FG (after a 40-yd pass play), the other in Kiko's INT.

 

Trailing 20-12 at a critical juncture in the game, the Bills stopped the Jets on 3rd-and-1 and 4th-and-1. There were no further Jets' 1st downs rushing the remainder of the game. They only had 6 rushing first downs, period.

 

You people are absurd. If not for a ridiculously depleted secondary we are not even having this discussion.

[Dorkington]

Then what are you arguing? That the defense was completely unable to stop them? Stats don't indicate that. That the defense was unable to stop them when it counts? Game didn't bear that out. That the Jets consistently rushed at will? Game logs and stats don't show that. That the defense didn't keep us in this game? That certainly wasn't the case.

 

What's your argument here?

 

I've already stated my opinion. I think our defense is more aggressive and better than last year. It's still not that good, though. Our run defense gives up too many first downs and big chunk plays, and our pass defense is significantly hurt by injuries. We get burned on passes, due to the fact that we stack the box for blitzes and run stops, while depending on the skills of DBs that just aren't cutting it. We have obvious injury problems in the backfield, but our front seven seems to be having issues stopping runs up the middle. For the most part, we set edges pretty solidly, and get sideline to sideline well.

 

I'm perfectly fine with disagreeing with you and eball. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm also not claiming we're worse or the same as last year, just that we still have room for significant improvement, especially with a struggling offense on the other side of the ball.

[JPS]

I've already stated my opinion. I think our defense is more aggressive and better than last year. It's still not that good, though. Our run defense gives up too many first downs and big chunk plays, and our pass defense is significantly hurt by injuries. We get burned on passes, due to the fact that we stack the box for blitzes and run stops, while depending on the skills of DBs that just aren't cutting it. We have obvious injury problems in the backfield, but our front seven seems to be having issues stopping runs up the middle. For the most part, we set edges pretty solidly, and get sideline to sideline well.

 

I'm perfectly fine with disagreeing with you and eball. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm also not claiming we're worse or the same as last year, just that we still have room for significant improvement, especially with a struggling offense on the other side of the ball.

Dorkington is the only one who makes sense.

[eball]

Dorkington is the only one who makes sense.

 

No, unfortunately there are a group of you who are only looking at statistics blindly, rather than taking into account the ebb and flow of the game and what was actually happening. At no time did the Jets "pound the Bills into submission" with their running attack -- and particularly not in the 2nd half when the game was in the balance.

[dave mcbride]

This thread is maddening. I challenge any of you "the run defense still stinks" posters to go and look at the play-by-play. In the 2nd half the Jets had TWO rushing first downs -- both came on the first play of the series. One drive ended in a FG (after a 40-yd pass play), the other in Kiko's INT.

 

Trailing 20-12 at a critical juncture in the game, the Bills stopped the Jets on 3rd-and-1 and 4th-and-1. There were no further Jets' 1st downs rushing the remainder of the game. They only had 6 rushing first downs, period.

 

You people are absurd. If not for a ridiculously depleted secondary we are not even having this discussion.

 

Your entire post seems to be premised on the concept that this is an implicit criticism of the organization and coaching staff. That's wrong. It's an assessment of the unit that the Bills are fielding on defense right now. Unfortunately, it's decimated by injury, but those are the cards the team has been dealt. The coordination strikes me as much better than last year, but the defense right now is bad. Yes, it has has excellent talent, and if everyone was healthy I suspect that they'd be a lot better. However, it's the NFL and they're not. I realize that have had some really bad luck on the injury front. There's no denying that. Again, though, they're not a good defense right now, and no wizardry from Pettine can mask it, try as he might.

 

The Bills gave up 513 yards yesterday. That's the most a Rex Ryan coached team has ever had.

Edited September 23, 2013 by dave mcbride

[Dorkington]

No, unfortunately there are a group of you who are only looking at statistics blindly, rather than taking into account the ebb and flow of the game and what was actually happening. At no time did the Jets "pound the Bills into submission" with their running attack -- and particularly not in the 2nd half when the game was in the balance.

 

I saw a game in which the run set up the pass. The run is the foundation of the Jets offense, or at least was yesterday. The abuse of Rogers was basically the icing on the cake.

 

We watched the same game, and saw different things, I don't see what's so ridiculous about that.

[MDH]

This thread is maddening. I challenge any of you "the run defense still stinks" posters to go and look at the play-by-play. In the 2nd half the Jets had TWO rushing first downs -- both came on the first play of the series. One drive ended in a FG (after a 40-yd pass play), the other in Kiko's INT.

 

Trailing 20-12 at a critical juncture in the game, the Bills stopped the Jets on 3rd-and-1 and 4th-and-1. There were no further Jets' 1st downs rushing the remainder of the game. They only had 6 rushing first downs, period.

 

You people are absurd. If not for a ridiculously depleted secondary we are not even having this discussion.

 

I like how you try and use a very very selective stat to try and prove your point. Running the ball for a 1st down isn't the only way of having a successful running game. It's called down and distance. You act like rushing for 1st downs is the only thing that matters in a successful ground attack. If you are successful running the ball on 1st or 2nd down you set up manageable distances for 1st downs. Those manageable distances can be converted via that pass. It's all interconnected. This is basic football. I mean basic.

 

Talk about absurd.

[The Big Cat]

No, unfortunately there are a group of you who are only looking at statistics blindly, rather than taking into account the ebb and flow of the game and what was actually happening. At no time did the Jets "pound the Bills into submission" with their running attack -- and particularly not in the 2nd half when the game was in the balance.

 

Passing touch downs of 51 and 69 yards = long, drawn out drives in which our defense simply couldn't stop them. Don't ya know? And the other touch down? The one set up by the 45 yard pass? Also a drive in which our defense was getting repeatedly "gashed."

[eball]

Your entire post seems to be premised on the concept that this is an implicit criticism of the organization and coaching staff. That's wrong. It's an assessment of the unit that the Bills are fielding on defense right now. Unfortunately, it's decimated by injury, but those are the cards the team has been dealt. The coordination strikes me as much better than last year, but the defense right now is bad. Yes, it has has excellent talent, and if everyone was healthy I suspect that they'd be a lot better. However, it's the NFL and they're not. I realize that have had some really bad luck on the injury front. There's no denying that. Again, though, they're not a good defense right now, and no wizardry from Pettine can mask it, try as he might.

 

Dave, you and I are talking about different things. I'm not disappointed in the way the Bills played the run last night, but apparently I'm an idiot because I can't see the per rush average and number of 5+ yard runs in the stat sheet. Silly me, I just watched the game and saw a running attack that did not impact the score. The Bills lost because their defensive backfield is a shambles, and their offense was poorly prepared.