Would anyone prefer to keep Fat Pat over Jonas?

[Grant]

If you could only keep one of our major FAs this off season, who'd it be?

 

According to the Bills Daily poll and the general consensus of TBD, most people seem to want to keep Pat Williams over Jonas Jennings.

 

Why?

 

Marcus Price is a good backup, but that's about it. Jennings is still very young, just entering his prime and has improved a lot with each year, despite some injuries.

 

On the other hand, Pat Williams is replacable. He's a good guy and has played well, but as long as we have Sam Adams, I think Ron Edwards could be a really good starter and he's shown us quite a bit since Krumrie came aboard.

 

 

So, if you could only keep one, who would you prefer to stay?

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I'd keep Williams over Jennings for 3 reasons:

 

1. I think we will get more production for the buck from a Phat Pat who should be cheaper to sign that Jennings.

2. I think there is grave uncertainty about Edwards as a starter, Anderson's development and how well Adams plays with Phat Pat the I am reluctant to give up this key to our run defense and ultimately our D.

3. I would resign Jennings if we can get him for a more cheap salary than the conventional wisdom (he is not worth top 10 cap hit money which many LTs have gotten as he has yet to last an entire season physically, he generally takes a bad penalty a game- I may exaggerate a bit here but it sure feels like that, he probably had fewer than 16 penalties last season because not only do I likely exaggerate, but he did not play one game and failed to finish several others due to injury, and he can get beaten like a drum from time to time as John Abraham did in the first Jets game. He is good but not that good.

 

I think we will have several potential options to replace Jennings if he goes which include:

 

A. Move Teague to LT where he wanted to go in the first place and he manned tge position adequately but not outstandingly in Denver. I suspect he will actually be better at LT now since he will have better experience after his center stint and he is a couple of years further removed from the injury which slowed him at LT for Denver. Tucker filled in nicely for Teague during his injury and makes a credible alternative at center, Further. if we decode to go into the OL FA market it may well be cheaper to buy a center than an LT.

B. If Teague moving isn't the answer better play by MW makes a move of him from RT to LT a possibility.

C. If you want to keep MW at Rt, then seeing if Price can do the job for a complete season may be your option.

D. The Bills have several tackle prospects who more likely would be called upon to fill MW's shoes at RT if you decide to move him rather than have any expectation they are ready to step up to LT duty. However, among those who make a move of MW a possibility or Price stepping up a possibility is that Tucker has started at tackle before in this league and Peters is on the depth chart as a tackle.

E. Finally, I think the premise that we can only sign one of the two needs to be tested because I will not be surprised if there is not the traditional FA market for Jenning at LT. Looking at the market, because of the past salary rush, many teams have already overcommitted long term to an LT. The market already has 8 of the top 19 OL salaries going to LTs, several below top 10 cap hit long term contracts to players like Clifton, Petitgout and a few others which takes those teams out of the market and teams with LT openings like AT cap committed by their 100+ million contract for Vick and recent big FA expenditures like Peerless making it hard to offer a big contract to Jennings. There are teams with cap room and an LT need, but if I had big bucks and needed an LT, I'd offer my dollars to Orlando Pace. Tra Thomas and Pro Bowler LT Jones who is an FA before I signed Jennings. If we have to compete finacially with a team like Philly who is already cap hanstrung by paying big bucks to Terrell Owens because NYG took Tra Thomas that's fine with me because I doubt they will be able to offer a big contract to Jennings.

 

I don't know what the Bills budget for FAs is, and someone might offer a franchise size ($7 million cap hit) or transition size ($6 million cap hit) to Jennings, of so I say goodbye and wish him luck. However, it will not shock me if Jennings in the end can be had for more money than he has ever seen, but less money than lesser players like Petitgout or Clifton received. They got $5 million annually (backloading of the contract probably reduced their immediate cap hit to far less) but I will not be shocked if some fool team gives Jenning a top 10 cap hit contract, but I will also not be surprised to see him only command $3 million annually which should fit into our budget.

[Mile High]

I'd keep Williams over Jennings for 3 reasons:

 

1. I think we will get more production for the buck from a Phat Pat who should be cheaper to sign that Jennings.

2. I think there is grave uncertainty about Edwards as a starter, Anderson's development and how well Adams plays with Phat Pat the I am reluctant to give up this key to our run defense and ultimately our D.

3. I would resign Jennings if we can get him for a more cheap salary than the conventional wisdom (he is not worth top 10 cap hit money which many LTs have gotten as he has yet to last an entire season physically, he generally takes a bad penalty a game- I may exaggerate a bit here but it sure feels like that, he probably had fewer than 16 penalties last season because not only do I likely exaggerate, but he did not play one game and failed to finish several others due to injury, and he can get beaten like a drum from time to time as John Abraham did in the first Jets game.  He is good but not that good.

 

I think we will have several potential options to replace Jennings if he goes which include:

 

A. Move Teague to LT where he wanted to go in the first place and he manned tge position adequately but not outstandingly in Denver.  I suspect he will actually be better at LT now since he will have better experience after his center stint and he is a couple of years further removed from the injury which slowed him at LT for Denver.  Tucker filled in nicely for Teague during his injury and makes a credible alternative at center,  Further. if we decode to go into the OL FA market it may well be cheaper to buy a center than an LT.

B. If Teague moving isn't the answer better play by MW makes a move of him from RT to LT a possibility.

C. If you want to keep MW at Rt, then seeing if Price can do the job for a complete season may be your option.

D.  The Bills have several tackle prospects who more likely would be called upon to fill MW's shoes at RT if you decide to move him rather than have any expectation they are ready to step up to LT duty.  However, among those who make a move of MW a possibility or Price stepping up a possibility is that Tucker has started at tackle before in this league and Peters is on the depth chart as a tackle.

E. Finally, I think the premise that we can only sign one of the two needs to be tested because I will not be surprised if there is not the traditional FA market for Jenning at LT.  Looking at the market, because of the past salary rush, many teams have already overcommitted long term to an LT.  The market already has 8 of the top 19 OL salaries going to LTs, several below top 10 cap hit long term contracts to players like Clifton, Petitgout and a few others which takes those teams out of the market and teams with LT openings like AT cap committed by their 100+ million contract for Vick and recent big FA expenditures like Peerless making it hard to offer a big contract to Jennings.  There are teams with cap room and an LT need, but if I had big bucks and needed an LT, I'd offer my dollars to Orlando Pace. Tra Thomas and Pro Bowler LT Jones who is an FA before I signed Jennings.  If we have to compete finacially with a team like Philly who is already cap hanstrung by paying big bucks to Terrell Owens because NYG took Tra Thomas that's fine with me because I doubt they will be able to offer a big contract to Jennings.

 

I don't know what the Bills budget for FAs is, and someone might offer a franchise size ($7 million cap hit) or transition size ($6 million cap hit) to Jennings, of so I say goodbye and wish him luck.  However, it will not shock me if Jennings in the end can be had for more money than he has ever seen, but less money than lesser players like Petitgout or Clifton received.  They got $5 million annually (backloading of the contract probably reduced their immediate cap hit to far less) but I will not be shocked if some fool team gives Jenning a top 10 cap hit contract, but I will also not be surprised to see him only command $3 million annually which should fit into our budget.

201117[/snapback]

Is that it? Come on there's gotta be more...

[Matt in KC]

I hope we keep Pat, and let Jonas go. My opinion is inextricable from my estimate of the salary each one will demand. I really think Jonas will make a mind-numbing salary next year. Pat, on the other hand, may be affordable because of his age. And, he sounds like he'd make some concessions to stay in Buffalo (for his family, business and to play w Sam).

 

I firmly believe that Pat has been instrumental in making our D one of the best in the league. If he leaves, who will join the rotation with Edwards and Adams? Will Adams be as motivated as he is now next to his buddy? Even if he is motivated, will the communication be as good? will someone else really be able to clog the middle like Pat has?

 

I believe Pat will be a much better value, though 3 years from now, Pat may be done, while Jonas is at his peak.... I hope to see a 2 year contract for Pat, and expect to wish Jonas well in his next job... somewhere in the NFC.

[boomerjamhead]

You should have made a poll out of this thread, but whatever.

 

It's Phat Pat in a landslide.

[The Jokeman]

The only reason I see Pat Williams winning these polls because of sentiment. As no doubt Pat Williams has enamored himself to Bills fans but I for one can not understand why people are so quick to toss Jennings aside. I know of the interview he did with an Atlanta radio station that everyone cites. I know that he has not been an ironman. I know he might command a big salary. Yet I still fail to understand why so many are willing to let go of a 27 year old LT who in 52, or if want to to count his games at LT 42, games that has only surrended 13.5 career sacks? His primary backup is due to be an UFA as well outside that we have next to no depth. To me it's illogical to want to let him go especially with all the troubles we've had on the O-line.

 

In comparison, Williams is over 30 and we have some depth at his position.True he's a good player and been a workhorse but I just can not understand why people feel it's better to keep him over Jennings if they use their heads instead of their hearts.

[Dawgg]

Easy choice. Pat Williams. NO QUESTION.

 

There are 3 reasons for this.

 

1. Jennings is a great athlete but is not as durable as PW

 

2. Jennings is a solid Tackle. Williams is a disruptive force at center. He wreaks havoc.

 

3. Jennings will cost too much. We can find cheaper alternatives through free agency and the draft.

 

If you could only keep one of our major FAs this off season, who'd it be?

 

According to the Bills Daily poll and the general consensus of TBD, most people seem to want to keep Pat Williams over Jonas Jennings.

 

Why?

 

Marcus Price is a good backup, but that's about it.  Jennings is still very young, just entering his prime and has improved a lot with each year, despite some injuries.

 

On the other hand, Pat Williams is replacable. He's a good guy and has played well, but as long as we have Sam Adams, I think Ron Edwards could be a really good starter and he's shown us quite a bit since Krumrie came aboard.

So, if you could only keep one, who would you prefer to stay?

201110[/snapback]

[The Jokeman]

I give you some kudos for coming up with the list but I just need to follow up some of them.

Easy choice.  Pat Williams. NO QUESTION.

 

There are 3 reasons for this.

 

1. Jennings is a great athlete but is not as durable as PW

 

2. Jennings is a solid Tackle.  Williams is a disruptive force at center. He wreaks havoc. 

 

3. Jennings will cost too much.  We can find cheaper alternatives through free agency and the draft.

201170[/snapback]

1. I can't argue that PW has been more durable then Jennings, but he's now over 30 how much long can we depend on PW?

 

2. Are you aware that the Redskins had a better rush defense then us? Are you aware that Joe Salave'a (a former Titan) was one of their starting DTs this year is also set to be an UFA this year and three years younger then Williams? He might not be as good as Williams but could be a better economic choice because of age and familiarity with our system (since he has been coached by Gregg Williams afterall).

 

3. Do I need to bring up the names John Fina, Jerry Crafts, Corey Louchey, Robert Hicks, Kris Farris and many of the other alternatives we've had at OT?

[Spiderweb]

I give you some kudos for coming up with the list but I just need to follow up some of them.

 

1. I can't argue that PW has been more durable then Jennings, but he's now over 30 how much long can we depend on PW?

 

2. Are you aware that the Redskins had a better rush defense then us? Are you aware that Joe Salave'a (a former Titan) was one of their starting DTs this year is also set to be an UFA this year and three years younger then Williams? He might not be as good as Williams but could be a better economic choice because of age and familiarity with our system (since he has been coached by Gregg Williams afterall).

 

3. Do I need to bring up the names John Fina, Jerry Crafts, Corey Louchey, Robert Hicks, Kris Farris and many of the other alternatives we've had at OT?

201171[/snapback]

 

Jennings, so long as he signs a reasonable deal (ala - Shobel). or there abouts.

 

We need quality at the OL positions. He and Mike Williams make a fine pair of bookends.

[Dawgg]

I think Pat Williams has a solid 4 years left in his tank. Granted the Redskins rush defense was better than the Bills, I feel that losing Pat Williams will be more costly to the defense than Pat's value as an individual player. He brings a lot of energy and along with Sam Adams, ties up blockers allowing Fletch and Spikes to do their thing. I really think the defense starts with Pat Williams.

 

Jennings, while a solid tackle, will garner a ton of interest in Free Agency and will likely be overpaid. I find his situation very similar to Antoine Winfield. Do I wish we could have kept him? Absolutely. But clearly, with a $10 million signing bonus and $25mm contract, he was overpaid.

 

I'm hoping we can find someone solid in the draft. Afterall, Jennings was a 3rd rounder.

 

I give you some kudos for coming up with the list but I just need to follow up some of them.

 

1. I can't argue that PW has been more durable then Jennings, but he's now over 30 how much long can we depend on PW?

 

2. Are you aware that the Redskins had a better rush defense then us? Are you aware that Joe Salave'a (a former Titan) was one of their starting DTs this year is also set to be an UFA this year and three years younger then Williams? He might not be as good as Williams but could be a better economic choice because of age and familiarity with our system (since he has been coached by Gregg Williams afterall).

 

3. Do I need to bring up the names John Fina, Jerry Crafts, Corey Louchey, Robert Hicks, Kris Farris and many of the other alternatives we've had at OT?

201171[/snapback]

[Brandon]

The only reason I see Pat Williams winning these polls because of sentiment. As no doubt Pat Williams has enamored himself to Bills fans but I for one can not understand why people are so quick to toss Jennings aside. I know of the interview he did with an Atlanta radio station that everyone cites. I know that he has not been an ironman. I know he might command a big salary. Yet I still fail to understand why so many are willing to let go of a 27 year old LT who in 52, or if want to to count his games at LT 42, games that has only surrended 13.5 career sacks? His primary backup is due to be an UFA as well outside that we have next to no depth. To me it's illogical to want to let him go especially with all the troubles we've had on the O-line.

 

In comparison, Williams is over 30 and we have some depth at his position.True he's a good player and been a workhorse but I just can not understand why people feel it's better to keep him over Jennings if they use their heads instead of their hearts.

201155[/snapback]

 

I agree. Ron Edwards has played well as the third DT and the Bills also drafted Tim Anderson last year. They may not be as good as Pat Williams, but the Bills do have them as potential replacements on the roster. I'm fairly certain that Edwards could, at the very least, play well enough to get by with.

 

What do we have at LT besides Jennings? Nothing. There's a contingent of fans that seem to think Teague can play LT in the NFL, but he was terrible in Denver. Of course, even if he can, you've got to find another C, which we don't have.

[Beerball]

I give you some kudos for coming up with the list but I just need to follow up some of them.

 

1. I can't argue that PW has been more durable then Jennings, but he's now over 30 how much long can we depend on PW?

 

2. Are you aware that the Redskins had a better rush defense then us? Are you aware that Joe Salave'a (a former Titan) was one of their starting DTs this year is also set to be an UFA this year and three years younger then Williams? He might not be as good as Williams but could be a better economic choice because of age and familiarity with our system (since he has been coached by Gregg Williams afterall).

 

3. Do I need to bring up the names John Fina, Jerry Crafts, Corey Louchey, Robert Hicks, Kris Farris and many of the other alternatives we've had at OT?

201171[/snapback]

To your first point, people began saying the same thing about Mt. Ted six years ago. Phat can go another 3-4 years at a very productive level IMO. Jonas has been a good steady player for the Bills. Somewhat injury prone, but not bad. Because of the position he plays he will rake in a ton of cash, much beyond his worth. We could be proven wrong, but I just don't see Jonas sticking around next year. Pat is a stronger possibility.

[scribo]

Go back and look at each game from this year. Every time Pat Williams OR Sam Adams were out of the game, even for just a quick breather, the other team could suddenly run. Every time!

 

When Jennings went out, big changes were not nearly as noticable...

 

I guess I would like the see the team re0sgin both big guys, but I certainly think Pat is more vital to success next year.

[Arkady Renko]

If you could only keep one of our major FAs this off season, who'd it be?

 

According to the Bills Daily poll and the general consensus of TBD, most people seem to want to keep Pat Williams over Jonas Jennings.

 

Why?

 

Marcus Price is a good backup, but that's about it.  Jennings is still very young, just entering his prime and has improved a lot with each year, despite some injuries.

 

On the other hand, Pat Williams is replacable. He's a good guy and has played well, but as long as we have Sam Adams, I think Ron Edwards could be a really good starter and he's shown us quite a bit since Krumrie came aboard.

So, if you could only keep one, who would you prefer to stay?

201110[/snapback]

 

For these very reasons, Pat Williams will probably come cheaper than Jennings. I think that is the key reason why many of us would rather sign the former than the latter.

[Grant]

Interesting.

 

I just thought that for all of the trouble our offensive line has had over the past few years, folks would want some consistency from one of the most important positions on the line - LT.

 

DT, on the other hand, is easier to replace and we have some young guns ready to step in. We don't have that on the line.

[DeeRay]

To me it's simple.... if you re-sign Jonas, you're going to automatically pay for an everage LT that hasn't played a full NFL season to date.

 

If you re-sign Pat Williams, you're going to get what you got as well... and that is a borderline all-pro that is effective and plays damn near every down. Also, if you do not re-sign Pat Williams, you effectively reduce Sam Adams effectiveness, because for Sam to be effective, he must play next to a damn good DT, ie Williams (and when Sam was in Baltimore... Siragusa) and Edwards, although he had a good season, showed me no indication that he is close to the level and consistency that Pat Williams plays at. It's a big gamble to assume that you can plug Edwards into Pat's spot and not miss a beat or be somewhat better off.

 

So, it's simple to me... re-sign Pat for less than we'd pay to keep Jonas and in the process have money leftover to be somewhat of a player in the free agency market.

[John from Riverside]

Edwards might be playing well...but the minute we start counting on him he is going to let us down....

 

I have no way to prove that....its a gut feeling

[Bill from NYC]

Interesting.

 

I just thought that for all of the trouble our offensive line has had over the past few years, folks would want some consistency from one of the most important positions on the line - LT.

 

DT, on the other hand, is easier to replace and we have some young guns ready to step in. We don't have that on the line.

201449[/snapback]

 

The OL would need help whether or not we sign Jennings. They need a true OC, and a stud LG would be great (although I do like Tucker).

I am one who thinks that Teague might work out at LT without a major drop in production. We already pay Big Mike about a billion per season, and Jennings will command at least 6 mil per year, with a huge bonus. His history of getting hurt does not warm me to the thought of this kind of cap allocation.

 

As for PW, if he insists on 4 or 5 million per season, I would let him walk as well. Edwards, imo, will at some point be at least as good as PW is now. Remember too, PW comes out on many plays now, and he is aging.

 

It would be nice to keep both of these guys, but not the end of the world if we lose either or both of them imo.

[Grant]

I am one who thinks that Teague might work out at LT without a major drop in production.

 

I think this is a pretty big leap of faith. I recall that Teague didn't perform very well at that spot in Denver, and he's just now getting seemingly comfortable at Center. If anything, I'd rather Teague and Ross Tucker switch. I think Tucker has more potential at Center and Teague would be a good guard.

 

We already pay Big Mike about a billion per season, and Jennings will command at least 6 mil per year, with a huge bonus. His history of getting hurt does not warm me to the thought of this kind of cap allocation.

As for PW, if he insists on 4 or 5 million per season, I would let him walk as well. Edwards, imo, will at some point be at least as good as PW is now. Remember too, PW comes out on many plays now, and he is aging.

 

This is a good point.

 

It would be nice to keep both of these guys, but not the end of the world if we lose either or both of them imo.

201738[/snapback]

 

This is a good point, too. I don't think Donahoe is going to overpay for either of these guys, though I would like for at least one of them to come back at a reasonable price - preferably Jennings.

[AKC]

Anderson's development

201117[/snapback]

 

Might be hard to even call his '03 campaign "developmental". He apparently impressed the staff so little in week 2 against the Raiders that he never saw the field in a game until week 13 in Miami and a few snaps in the Pitt game.

 

On the other hand Edwards was for the most part very impressive in his role as a passing down gap splitter. How that translates to duty in the 1st and 2nd and long defense remains to be seen, the one thing for sure is that Krumrie had him going in the right direction all season.

 

Williams over Jennings for sure, Williams is a far better fit in our D than Jonas is in our O, and Jonas should find a number of offenses where his superior pass blocking skills should pay him a BIG premium in FA.