Did anyone $&^@ this team more last year than Dave Wannstedt?

[The Big Cat]

Both. They work hand in hand. I guarantee you that all the guys gone and all the guys gone after were Pettine influenced or approved, more so than Buddy.

 

Notable "gone's" are McGee (no-brainer), Barnett (no-brainer) and Wilson (quasi no-brainer)

 

There's nothing to suggest that Buddy would have stayed the course with these three bums, to Weo's point.

 

To your point, I understand that. But Weo offered paradoxes aplenty by saying that Buddy Nix did a horrible job at picking the roster that the new defensive coordinator is now controlling after Buddy Nix did a horrible job of hiring the last defensive coordinator.

[San-O]

Let me guess, he was supposed to "scheme" his way around players that weren't good enough in order to hide their deficiencies? Our D was just as bad under Jauron/Fewell and Gailey/Edwards. Had the game passed them by as well?

 

I think your post earlier in the thread was very fair in that it takes a combination of things for teams to have success. From the FO, to the coaches, to the QB, etc etc etc. It's certainly been a combination of factors at play that have kept the Bills in the basement for so long. I'll just say that given our ineptitude on defense over the course of several DCs and schemes, especially from the Fewell era, we have seen some of the worst defenses in our history. That speaks to a continued problem in acquiring enough talented players and for my money and based on what I witnessed last season, Wanny was the least of the problems on that side of the ball. He was just the latest to be vicimtized by the dearth of talent.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Actually, the 2009 Bills were 14 in total yards/game, and 17 points/game under Jauron/Fewell.

[Malazan]

I didn't like his defensive strategy in Miami and didn't like it here, but I thought he'd be ok with the amount of talent up front. He wasn't. I think he doesn't get the blame for being who always was, that goes to Gailey. He knew the defense had to be fixed and trusted the wrong person.

 

I don't absolve Nix because he hired Gailey and let him make the call on Wanny, but I think the mopst deserving target of ire for the defense last season is Gailey.

[Kirby Jackson]

I am just blown away people are defending Wanny!! What's next a thread about how tough Trent Edwards is or what an explosive punt catcher Chris Watson was?

[The Big Cat]

Just posted this in eBall's practice thread:

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/media-center/videos/Mario_Williams_on_Minicamp_Practices/6af24fec-787f-479e-9961-443abb220c33#nogo

[ALLEN1QB]

 

 

It's just a word, who cares. I've never understood the concept of some words being taboo to say. Just words conveying the exact same meaning as other words that are OK to say. It makes no sense at all really. And people who complain about them on their high horse make no sense to me neither. Like you're really offended by it? Come on.

 

Ha ha F@&K you bastards are to easy lol

[CookieG]

If you need to believe it wasn't the players, so be it. But when players consistently miss plays they are in position to make, that's on the players. When your players are getting beat one on one at the POA, that's not the scheme. When players can't execute basic defensive schemes, no amount of "disguising" them and making things more complicated as a result, is going to work. It was interesting to see Wanny actually dumb it down as the season progressed. That's what coaches have to do in order to simplify things for players that can't handle their assignments. Not that it mattered.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

In a way, that's what Kyle Williams said last year after the first NE game. But he was talking about guys not being where they were supposed to be and not doing what they were supposed to. Kelsay further chimed in, calling out the effort of some of them. Talley and Bruce later publicly called out the effort of some of the players, without mentioning names.

 

That is pretty inexcusable, considering the simplicity of the defense. And I think you are right in saying that it comes down to beating the man in front of you, at least for Wanny's defense. He said that plenty in the past...if one guy is being doubled, and the other man has a single blocker, you expect that guy to beat his man. If he doesn't, it won't work.

 

Problem is...it didn't work. Guys weren't beating the guy in front of them. They brought in a $15 million a year "physical freak" who's made a career out of preying on lesser talent. He'll get his sacks against an Arizona...but disappears against a NE. Even when they moved him around to try and exploit a position, it didn't work.

 

I think you are right in that when you look at many of the big plays against the defense last year, most of them had someone missing an assignment or just making a bonehead play.

 

It isn't so much a lack of physical talent, especially with the front 4, as it is effort and discipline. If Petitine can get these guys to do their jobs.

 

When you watch Alabama play (probably the best defense at any level in the last half decade), it isn't just that they "scheme". They do. They blitz, they disguise blitzes, but......they play with discipline. Guys aren't out of position. They don't get burned by misdirection. To me, THAT'S one of the biggest things this defense missed and that's what Kyle Williams was getting at. Guys weren't where they were supposed to be and doing what they were supposed to.

 

If Petitine can get them to do that, it'll mean a hell of a lot more than "scheme".

[Kelly the Dog]

Let me guess, he was supposed to "scheme" his way around players that weren't good enough in order to hide their deficiencies? Our D was just as bad under Jauron/Fewell and Gailey/Edwards. Had the game passed them by as well?

 

I think your post earlier in the thread was very fair in that it takes a combination of things for teams to have success. From the FO, to the coaches, to the QB, etc etc etc. It's certainly been a combination of factors at play that have kept the Bills in the basement for so long. I'll just say that given our ineptitude on defense over the course of several DCs and schemes, especially from the Fewell era, we have seen some of the worst defenses in our history. That speaks to a continued problem in acquiring enough talented players and for my money and based on what I witnessed last season, Wanny was the least of the problems on that side of the ball. He was just the latest to be vicimtized by the dearth of talent.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Watch this, from Mario this afternoon.

http://www.buffalobills.com/media-center/videos/Mario_Williams_on_Minicamp_Practices/6af24fec-787f-479e-9961-443abb220c33

[jaybee]

The more I hear out of defensive players as they're around the new staff, the angrier I become at Wannstedt for his unemotional and uninspired tenure as the Bills' DC. Say what you want about Gailey's playcalling and Fitz's inconsistency, but nobody did more to screw the Bills' chance at a good season than Wanny. The Buffalo News article on Bradham this morning is just the latest example of the changed atmosphere and intensity around the team.

 

I hear many of you whining about lack of talent, but coaching DOES matter.

 

Absolutely agree. On all counts. On the local news tonight Freddie was commenting on the fast pace of the mini camp. He went on to say, not just on the field but in the film room as well.

 

Marrone then commented that the game is played so fast that you've got to practice at that pace. Game day becomes a smoother transition when you practice fast, he said.

 

I am gulping the Kulaid by the gallon. Why not ? I wont say playoffs but I definitely anticipate a much improved look to the Bills this year. If we simply look improved on both sides of the football and set the table for a playoff run starting in 2014 I'll be happy as a lark. Hope I'm wrong....and we make a wildcard this year right here ! LOL !

 

jb

[3rdand12]

It's early and no one is dog tired and or injured yet. Coaches staff etc included

You cant know what you have in the players till they play a couple games under Marrone against a real nfl team.

Till then my glass is half full.

Hold on....

Okay. now my glass is half full cheers!

Edited April 18, 2013 by 3rdand12

[Floridabillsfan1]

This thread is 6 pages of highly deserved anger. We want someone to pay for wasting our time and in many ways bullshitting us . Go Bills !!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

This thread is 6 pages of highly deserved anger. We want someone to pay for wasting our time and in many ways bullshitting us . Go Bills !!!!

How exactly are they "bullshitting us"?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Noticing and then telling your HC that the DC is no good and needs to be replaced (or, was part of the problem and shouldn't be promoted to actual DC) is not "micormanaging". It's his duty. It's what someone is paying him for.

 

Wanny was DC for only one season. A DC or an OC deserve one season to be judged.

 

If you're saying that Nix should have forced Gailey to fire Wanny midseason, I disagree.

 

Let me guess, he was supposed to "scheme" his way around players that weren't good enough in order to hide their deficiencies? Our D was just as bad under Jauron/Fewell and Gailey/Edwards. Had the game passed them by as well?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Our D was less talented but better under Jauron and Fewell in my recollection.

 

In the last 3 years the Bills have invested very heavily in defense. Not all the players have panned out but I think the talent level on D is higher than it was during the Jauron era.

 

But unless it's all a bad dream, it seems to me that the Bills were setting club and league records for suckitude under Wanny.

[Orton's Arm]

Wanny was DC for only one season. A DC or an OC deserve one season to be judged.

 

If you're saying that Nix should have forced Gailey to fire Wanny midseason, I disagree.

 

 

 

Our D was less talented but better under Jauron and Fewell in my recollection.

 

In the last 3 years the Bills have invested very heavily in defense. Not all the players have panned out but I think the talent level on D is higher than it was during the Jauron era.

 

But unless it's all a bad dream, it seems to me that the Bills were setting club and league records for suckitude under Wanny.

 

Agreed. A defensive coordinator should always be alert for opportunities to do something the other side isn't expecting. To use a combination of intelligence, creativity, and mental discipline to outsmart the other team's offensive coordinator. I didn't see any of that from Wanny. In fact, if you'd fired Wanny mid-season, and replaced him with a high school coach chosen more or less at random, I don't think you'd have seen a huge difference in the quality or style of defensive coaching.

 

It's not exactly as though Wanny had been noted for his brilliant creativity elsewhere, but through player ineptitude was forced into being vanilla with the Bills. Wanny was vanilla with the Cowboys, but looked good because he had insanely good defensive talent. He was vanilla with the Dolphins, but still often looked respectable on defense because they had good, solid player talent.

 

K-9 pointed out that the players were a big part of the problem on defense, and I agreed with him. But then he went further, making it seem like the players were the only problem on defense. That's going way too far! If the Bills had had a defensive coordinator the caliber of Wade Philips or Bill Belichick, that coordinator would have gotten a lot more out of that defense than what Wanny got.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[Jkgobills]

 

Watch this, from Mario this afternoon.

http://www.buffalobills.com/media-center/videos/Mario_Williams_on_Minicamp_Practices/6af24fec-787f-479e-9961-443abb220c33

 

That interview might just get me drinking some Kool Aid

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Agreed. A defensive coordinator should always be alert for opportunities to do something the other side isn't expecting. To use a combination of intelligence, creativity, and mental discipline to outsmart the other team's offensive coordinator. I didn't see any of that from Wanny. In fact, if you'd fired Wanny mid-season, and replaced him with a high school coach chosen more or less at random, I don't think you'd have seen a huge difference in the quality or style of defensive coaching.

 

It's not exactly as though Wanny had been noted for his brilliant creativity elsewhere, but through player ineptitude was forced into being vanilla with the Bills. Wanny was vanilla with the Cowboys, but looked good because he had insanely good defensive talent. He was vanilla with the Dolphins, but still often looked respectable on defense because they had good, solid player talent.

 

K-9 pointed out that the players were a big part of the problem on defense, and I agreed with him. But then he went further, making it seem like the players were the only problem on defense. That's going way too far! If the Bills had had a defensive coordinator the caliber of Wade Philips or Bill Belichick, that coordinator would have gotten a lot more out of that defense than what Wanny got.

 

Well the bar hasn't been set too high for Pettine so here's to another round of Kool-Aid!

 

:beer: :beer:

[K-9]

Aside from defending Kelsay against excessive and unwarranted criticism, what exactly have I crusaded for (or against)?

 

Oh, believe me, I clearly see you and K-9 backtracking quickly so there's an excuse ready when the defense is a pleasant surprise this season. "If only Wanny had this roster...." Hilarious. Of course, at the same time no credit will be given to Nix for the players on the roster.

 

No backtrackking here, chief. Not sure what there is to back track from anyway. If you need to believe the Bills had All Pros at every position and Wanny screwed the pooch, so be it. I'll trust my eyes and my experience in the meantime.

 

Just remember that Pettine has already purged and/or re-arranged a good portion of the defense moving forward. So if we DO end up pleasantly surprising everybody with improvement, it won't be with the same cast of losers that Wanny had. Pettine is off to a good start in that regard. He had no interest in keeping all the losers.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Actually, the 2009 Bills were 14 in total yards/game, and 17 points/game under Jauron/Fewell.

 

Yeah, and they were second in the league in pass defense, too. Know why? Because they were nearly the WORST against the run, had trouble getting off the field on 3rd downs, and couldn't make an offense one-dimensional to save it's life. Sound familiar? To cite that defense as being 17th overall as some kind of proof that they were better than they really were is just not looking at the stats in proper context. Fewell presided over some terrible defenses.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I didn't like his defensive strategy in Miami and didn't like it here, but I thought he'd be ok with the amount of talent up front. He wasn't. I think he doesn't get the blame for being who always was, that goes to Gailey. He knew the defense had to be fixed an wd trusted the wrong person.

 

I don't absolve Nix because he hired Gailey and let him make the call on Wanny, but I think the mopst deserving target of ire for the defense last season is Gailey.

 

Nobody's defending Wanny. Just pointing out that many of his players were worse at their jobs than he was at his.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited April 19, 2013 by K-9

[Orton's Arm]

No backtrackking here, chief. Not sure what there is to back track from anyway. If you need to believe the Bills had All Pros at every position and Wanny screwed the pooch, so be it. I'll trust my eyes and my experience in the meantime.

 

Just remember that Pettine has already purged and/or re-arranged a good portion of the defense moving forward. So if we DO end up pleasantly surprising everybody with improvement, it won't be with the same cast of losers that Wanny had. Pettine is off to a good start in that regard. He had no interest in keeping all the losers.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

Yeah, and they were second in the league in pass defense, too. Know why? Because they were nearly the WORST against the run, had trouble getting off the field on 3rd downs, and couldn't make an offense one-dimensional to save it's life. Sound familiar? To cite that defense as being 17th overall as some kind of proof that they were better than they really were is just not looking at the stats in proper context. Fewell presided over some terrible defenses.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

> Just remember that Pettine has already purged and/or re-arranged a good portion of the defense moving forward.

 

There's a difference between purging and rearranging. Last year, there was no one to stop Wanny from rearranging to his heart's content.

 

> So if we DO end up pleasantly surprising everybody with improvement, it won't be with the same cast of losers that Wanny had.

 

If my understanding is correct, the Bills have thus far added two starters to their defense. It's quite possible they'll add to that total between now and opening day.

 

But that doesn't mean that any defensive improvement will be due solely to swapping around players. I fully expect Pettine to be significantly more competent and creative than Wanny. I also expect that added competence to produce solid results on the field.

[K-9]

Agreed. A defensive coordinator should always be alert for opportunities to do something the other side isn't expecting. To use a combination of intelligence, creativity, and mental discipline to outsmart the other team's offensive coordinator. I didn't see any of that from Wanny. In fact, if you'd fired Wanny mid-season, and replaced him with a high school coach chosen more or less at random, I don't think you'd have seen a huge difference in the quality or style of defensive coaching.

 

It's not exactly as though Wanny had been noted for his brilliant creativity elsewhere, but through player ineptitude was forced into being vanilla with the Bills. Wanny was vanilla with the Cowboys, but looked good because he had insanely good defensive talent. He was vanilla with the Dolphins, but still often looked respectable on defense because they had good, solid player talent.

 

K-9 pointed out that the players were a big part of the problem on defense, and I agreed with him. But then he went further, making it seem like the players were the only problem on defense. That's going way too far! If the Bills had had a defensive coordinator the caliber of Wade Philips or Bill Belichick, that coordinator would have gotten a lot more out of that defense than what Wanny got.

 

90/10, players/Wanny. Is that better?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

90/10, players/Wanny. Is that better?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

With the possible exception of Aaron Williams who on the defense was worse at their job than Wanny?