It was very depressing to watch two QBs who throw the ball like that

[mannc]

For every Kaepernick/RGIII/Luck, there's two or three Tebows, Gabberts, Lockers, Ponders, Kolbs, Cassels. Too many people look backwards with 20/20 hindsight and talk about how all the "professionals" should have been able to predict who would be great and who would be busts. There's simply no way to predict with unfailing accuracy who will be great and who will be average.

 

Tom Brady had to endure *six* other QBs being selected before him before New England threw him a bone. That's every single team in the league passing on one of the NFL's best QBs in history.... numerous times. And yet you are ready to burn Buddy Nix in effigy for not selecting Kaepernick when the defense was ranked in the bottom of the NFL for several years.

 

Fitz was so bad in 2012 (83.3 QB rating) that he was only a few points better than Andrew Luck (76.5). And Fitz didn't have Reggie Wayne to throw to.

 

Fitz may not be elite status, but to throw him under the bus is just plain stupid. The odds of getting a rookie who will outperform a veteran when the current roster is so devoid of receiving talent seems ludicrous. But flip that same argument to the receivers and the odds of getting a WR who can outperform the others are actually very good. Any GM should look at which position will receive a BIGGER upgrade, WR or QB? And at the moment, the odds favor the WR position.

 

Flacco did perform wonderfully in the Super Bowl. But it's also pretty evident that Boldin, Jacoby Jones, Dennis Pitta and Torry Smith are talents that make the Bills receivers look like high schoolers. Boldin and Jones could arguably have been the games MVPs. Boldin was a BEAST in that game who made clutch catch after clutch catch to keep the sticks moving.

There is some truth to what you are saying here, but you are letting OBD off way too easily. True, Fitz is not the worst QB in th league, and in fact I think we can say he's the least bad Buffalo QB since Bledsoe's first year here, when he was throwing to Peerless Price and Eric Moulds in their prime. And I also understand that Fitz's QB ratings have not been that bad, at times. But if you watch the games, it is impossible to conclude that he is anything other than a mediocre QB who at best will win you 7 games in a 16 game season. He's not John Skelton, or Blaine Gabbert; but he's just good enough to get you beat.

 

And yes, we know that it's not easy to hit the jackpot on a QB in the draft. We know that not everyone thought Kaepernick or Wilson or Cousins were going to be stars. The problem I have is that Nix did not even bother to try to pick a young QB to compete with Fitz or to groom behind Fitz for a year or two. Totally inexcusable, given the quality choices that were available after the first round of the last few drafts.

 

And yeah, we also know that the Bills badly needed to upgrade the defensive side of the ball. So where is that defensive upgrade that had to take place instead of investing in a QB of the future? Now we desperately need upgrades on defense, at WR, TE and QB. Believe me, if the Bills had been drafting defenders like Aldon Smith, JJ Watt, and Bobby Wagner, etc, you would not hear nearly as much complaining.

 

Finally, I can't buy the argument that these other QBs would be playing like crap if they were on the Bills due to their lack of WRs. True, the Bills don't have a deep stable of great WRs, but it's not that bad. There are plenty of teams without a no. 1 wideout as good as Stevie, and lots of teams are stocked with undrafted FA receivers. The fact is, a good QB is going to make everyone on the team, including the defense, better. Imagine how CJ would have done with a QB who actually makes the defense cover more than 10 yards from the line of scrimmage.

[peterpan]

Kaep was amazing. My jaw was dropping all night. He ahd two MONEY deeps throws that were dropped. His accuracy is unbelievable, even on the run. his overthrow and one late throw to Moss were the only bad throws all game, and one was a mental error. He missed a wide open V Davis on a could have been TD (it was a 3rd down and he threw it to Crabtree where it was batted down at the last second).

 

Overall he is a stud. F Buddy for missing on him.

 

I mean really - how could anyone go to a workout and watch Kaep drop bombs like that and not want to draft him ASAP.

[Maury Ballstein]

im with ya peterpan...... what was going on with his draft workouts? amazing we couldn't snatch him up over Aaron "where did the WR go" Williams.

 

its a brutal beat. maybe this draft will yield us a Matt Barkley to stop the bleeding? Then we can lose to Kaep in the bowl every year.

[BobChalmers]

Both teams having QBs that can throw like that is no coincidence. It's what is needed to compete in todays NFL.

Add in a running threat like you get with Kap and you really have something. I expect SF to be strong for a long time to come.

It took SF what, 2 years to turn around. Funny what the right QB and head coach can do for a franchise isn't it.

And the Bills are still at 13 years and counting. But the Bills have a new HC and presumably will have a new QB as well so who knows.

 

SF is actually an odd example to use for the "draft a QB, dammit" line of reasoning, since they had already turned their team around by fixing the defense with a collection of game-changing LB's, starting with the next great MLB/ILB Patrick Willis. They won a ton of games with a long-struggling QB Alex Smith.

[Beerball]

Please, Buddy/Doug, find us a QB.

Amen brother. If/when Kaepernick learns to put some air under the ball he has a chance to be very special.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

Buddy signed him to his current starter money contract. His effort at upgrading the competition have been to bring in a 7th round pick, a pistol offense guy off the scrap heap, Vince Young, and a guy that the coach promised would never see the light of day. If he was really worried about the talent at the position, he has a bizarre track record over 3 years of showing it.

Preach it brother !! Agree 100 %

[Malazan]

On the other hand, their plan has been exposed: drafting runners and defensive players is outdated thinking. Today's NFL trend is all about throwing the football and having a QB that can light up the scoreboard like a pinball machine.

 

 

The 49ers were 2nd overall defensively and the Ravens were 12th. I'm not sure how that shows they were outdated. Keep in mind, the 49ers were 'winning' with Alex Smith whose stats were very similar to Fitzpatrick.

 

Let's just take a look at the teams in the playoffs and their defensive ranks in terms on points. I didn't like just points, so I added yds/Good Morning, for the second number:

 

Seahawks: #1 | #4

49ers: #2 | #3

Broncos: #4 | #2

Falcons: #5 | #24

Bengals: #8 | #6

Texans: #9 | #7

Patriots: #9 |#25

Packers: #11 | #11

Ravens: #12 | #17

Vikings: #14 | #16

Colts: #21 | #26

Redskins: #22 | #28

 

Bills: #26 | #22

 

This shows that two teams had 'bad' or bottom third defenses. The Colt and Redskins. These are the only two teams whose defense wasn't in the top half of the league in the playoffs. They both had pretty magical years and their QBs are generational talents. So a great QB can makeup for a bad defense, but it is the exception, not the norm.

 

So let's look at the other side of the ball. The Offense. Again, Points / yds per game:

 

Patriots: #1 | #1

Broncos: #2 | #4

Redskins: #4 | #5

Packers: #5 | #12

Falcons: #7 | #8

Texans: #8 | #7

Seahawks: #9 | #17

Ravens: #10 | #16

49ers: #11 | #11

Bengals: #12 | #22

Vikings: #14 | #20

Colts: #18 | #10

 

Bills: #21 | #19

 

This defnitely lends credence that Offense is important. No team except for the Colts were out of the top half of teams and none were in the bottom third. It also seems to indicate that red zone efficency is incredibly important.

 

Let's look into the offense further: Rush yard per game / passing yards per game

 

Redskins: #1 / #20

Vikings: #2 / #31

Seahawks: #3 / #27

49ers: #4 / #23

Patriots: #7 / #4

Texans: #8 / #11

Ravens: #11 / #15

Broncos: #16 / #5

Bengals: #18 / #17

Packers: #20 / #9

Colts: #22 / #7

Falcons: #29 / #6

 

Bills: #6 / #25

 

I think this shows the Bills running game was good enough. They need to improve in the passing game, but some of the teams that were worse than them in the air, were better at rushing.

 

So the question that we're looking at is the QB. Let's use the awesome NFL tool at http://www.nfl.com/s...ayer4=WIL777781

 

So Fitzpatrick isn't out of the ballpark. Where does he lose? Rushing and interceptions.

 

We know Fitz has an interception problem and tries to force the ball and doesn't have the arm to back it up. We also know, he'll never be a rushing a QB. I don't this is a surprise to anyone.

 

The question is, given how bad the Bills defense is, was upgrading QB the priority or the defense and rushing? Would the Bills be better if they drafted a QB and had a worse rushing game, offensive line and defense?

 

I look at these ranking and think it bores out the point that the Bills could win with Fitzpatrick given their defense performs int he top 15. It also seems that improved QB play could help with some minor defensive improvement.

 

 

It's really hard to say their plan was 'exposed' when the two teams in the Superbowl followed the blueprint of improving the defense and then getting a QB (albeit in the Ravens case, the defense was pretty good already). I look it as more of a situation of, "The tire is falling off my car, but I'm almost out of gas. Well, I can probably make it home with the gas that's left, but the tire has got be replaced." You may run out of gas and not make it, but filling up the tank with only three tires doesn't get you anywhere.

Edited February 4, 2013 by jeremy2020

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

For every Kaepernick/RGIII/Luck, there's two or three Tebows, Gabberts, Lockers, Ponders, Kolbs, Cassels. Too many people look backwards with 20/20 hindsight and talk about how all the "professionals" should have been able to predict who would be great and who would be busts. There's simply no way to predict with unfailing accuracy who will be great and who will be average.

 

Tom Brady had to endure *six* other QBs being selected before him before New England threw him a bone. That's every single team in the league passing on one of the NFL's best QBs in history.... numerous times. And yet you are ready to burn Buddy Nix in effigy for not selecting Kaepernick when the defense was ranked in the bottom of the NFL for several years.

 

Fitz was so bad in 2012 (83.3 QB rating) that he was only a few points better than Andrew Luck (76.5). And Fitz didn't have Reggie Wayne to throw to.

 

Fitz may not be elite status, but to throw him under the bus is just plain stupid. The odds of getting a rookie who will outperform a veteran when the current roster is so devoid of receiving talent seems ludicrous. But flip that same argument to the receivers and the odds of getting a WR who can outperform the others are actually very good. Any GM should look at which position will receive a BIGGER upgrade, WR or QB? And at the moment, the odds favor the WR position.

 

Flacco did perform wonderfully in the Super Bowl. But it's also pretty evident that Boldin, Jacoby Jones, Dennis Pitta and Torry Smith are talents that make the Bills receivers look like high schoolers. Boldin and Jones could arguably have been the games MVPs. Boldin was a BEAST in that game who made clutch catch after clutch catch to keep the sticks moving.

Letting him drive the bus IS even stupider Edited February 4, 2013 by MOVALLEYRANDY

[Malazan]

Letting him drive the bus IS even stupider

 

I'm curious what you're basing this on beyond a feeling of 'Fitz Sucks'. I'm very interested in the specifics.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I was thinking the same thing last night. It's great to see a game where the recivers aren't trying to catch the ball at their knees or a yard behind them. I long for the day when the Bills get a real QB.

 

Er, you do realize that there's another thread on this board talking about how Flacco was just airing it out and his receivers were going all out and making the play for him?

My take on that is already posted in said thread, I'm just here pointing out there are different perceptions.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Hopeful

[Sisyphean Bills]

The 49ers were 2nd overall defensively and the Ravens were 12th. I'm not sure how that shows they were outdated. Keep in mind, the 49ers were 'winning' with Alex Smith whose stats were very similar to Fitzpatrick.

 

Let's just take a look at the teams in the playoffs and their defensive ranks in terms on points. I didn't like just points, so I added yds/Good Morning, for the second number:

 

Seahawks: #1 | #4

49ers: #2 | #3

Broncos: #4 | #2

Falcons: #5 | #24

Bengals: #8 | #6

Texans: #9 | #7

Patriots: #9 |#25

Packers: #11 | #11

Ravens: #12 | #17

Vikings: #14 | #16

Colts: #21 | #26

Redskins: #22 | #28

 

Bills: #26 | #22

 

This shows that two teams had 'bad' or bottom third defenses. The Colt and Redskins. These are the only two teams whose defense wasn't in the top half of the league in the playoffs. They both had pretty magical years and their QBs are generational talents. So a great QB can makeup for a bad defense, but it is the exception, not the norm.

 

So let's look at the other side of the ball. The Offense. Again, Points / yds per game:

 

Patriots: #1 | #1

Broncos: #2 | #4

Redskins: #4 | #5

Packers: #5 | #12

Falcons: #7 | #8

Texans: #8 | #7

Seahawks: #9 | #17

Ravens: #10 | #16

49ers: #11 | #11

Bengals: #12 | #22

Vikings: #14 | #20

Colts: #18 | #10

 

Bills: #21 | #19

 

This defnitely lends credence that Offense is important. No team except for the Colts were out of the top half of teams and none were in the bottom third. It also seems to indicate that red zone efficency is incredibly important.

 

Let's look into the offense further: Rush yard per game / passing yards per game

 

Redskins: #1 / #20

Vikings: #2 / #31

Seahawks: #3 / #27

49ers: #4 / #23

Patriots: #7 / #4

Texans: #8 / #11

Ravens: #11 / #15

Broncos: #16 / #5

Bengals: #18 / #17

Packers: #20 / #9

Colts: #22 / #7

Falcons: #29 / #6

 

Bills: #6 / #25

 

I think this shows the Bills running game was good enough. They need to improve in the passing game, but some of the teams that were worse than them in the air, were better at rushing.

 

So the question that we're looking at is the QB. Let's use the awesome NFL tool at http://www.nfl.com/s...ayer4=WIL777781

 

So Fitzpatrick isn't out of the ballpark. Where does he lose? Rushing and interceptions.

 

We know Fitz has an interception problem and tries to force the ball and doesn't have the arm to back it up. We also know, he'll never be a rushing a QB. I don't this is a surprise to anyone.

 

The question is, given how bad the Bills defense is, was upgrading QB the priority or the defense and rushing? Would the Bills be better if they drafted a QB and had a worse rushing game, offensive line and defense?

 

I look at these ranking and think it bores out the point that the Bills could win with Fitzpatrick given their defense performs int he top 15. It also seems that improved QB play could help with some minor defensive improvement.

 

 

It's really hard to say their plan was 'exposed' when the two teams in the Superbowl followed the blueprint of improving the defense and then getting a QB (albeit in the Ravens case, the defense was pretty good already). I look it as more of a situation of, "The tire is falling off my car, but I'm almost out of gas. Well, I can probably make it home with the gas that's left, but the tire has got be replaced." You may run out of gas and not make it, but filling up the tank with only three tires doesn't get you anywhere.

OK, but this zero-sum statistical game is wholly irrelevant to what I wrote. The scoring in the NFL has steadily been trending higher as have passing yards. That's not reflected in a single year of stats such as W-L records and who finished with what ranking relevant to others. That's not to say that running the ball is dead. The Vikings got to the playoffs on the legs of Peterson this past year. Having a defense that can slow someone down isn't a bad thing either. If you just want to focus on the Super Bowl, the scoring is up there as well: 51.4 ppg last 5 years, 45 ppg 10 years ago, 33.5 ppg 40 years ago.

 

Edit: By the way, I can and do think it was plainly exposed as a bad plan. Chan Gailey got fired. People want Buddy's head on a platter. The head of the organization announced that the brand is tarnished. If that's not getting exposed, nothing is.

[Malazan]

Edit: By the way, I can and do think it was plainly exposed as a bad plan. Chan Gailey got fired. People want Buddy's head on a platter. The head of the organization announced that the brand is tarnished. If that's not getting exposed, nothing is.

 

I agree Chan Gailey was exposed. I will have to disagree that the idea that getting by with an average QB and building your defense was exposed. In fact, the 49ers had a fantastic defense and top tier running game while their passing game didn't fare as well. These numbers fairly blatantly point out that there needs to be better play from the passing offense/QB or the Defense and that while Fitz didn't do as well as the Qbs in the Super Bowl and Wilson, he wasn't out of their ballpark.

 

I reiterate, there has to be better play from the QB or Defense. I disagree in your assertion that going the route of upgrading the defense first was the wrong decision. Of course, if you see that Ravens/49ers as having gone the route of upgrading the QB first before their defense, I'd appreciate you pointing that out to me. I am not incredibly well versed on their histories.

[Bronc24]

Flacco was not good yesterday, the out jump, or turn around and wait for it completions are a credit to his wide outs. Don't over react because his team won. Kaepernick has an absolute rifle on the other hand.

 

Either you are truly an idiot or an amazing troll. The guy had an 11-0 TD-INT ratio in the playoffs, won three road games, is a SB champion and MVP, yet you are saying we are overreacting because his team won? That check off and back shoulder throw in the 4th quarter on 3rd and 1 was an amazing, confident audible and a great throw. Your sweetheart Pickspatrick could only dream of making that throw in any quarter, let alone the 4th in a close game.

 

 

 

 

I'm curious what you're basing this on beyond a feeling of 'Fitz Sucks'. I'm very interested in the specifics.

 

Perhaps career won - loss record, consistent inconsistency in the 4th quarter, a complete lack of accuracy beyond ten yards, a horrendous yards per pass attempt number, a weak arm that causes him to overcompensate with his body, causing severe accuracy issues, a propensity to throw damning INTs in the 4th quarter, inaccuracy over the middle which puts receivers in an awkward position to gain yac, the fact defenses dare him to beat them deep, which he is unable to do, the fact he never has and never will QB a team to the playoffs and absolute confidence that in any 4th quarter situation with he game on the line he will, somehow, fu** it up. Need more?

 

Conversely, I'm curious as to what empirical evidence you have that Fitz does not suck.

[Orton's Arm]

All I could think about last night, watching those two guys throw dart after dart, is how depressing it has been to look at the parade of QBs march through Buffalo over the past dozen years.

 

Kaepernick looks absolutely sick. He throws an unbelievable ball, with pinpoint accuracy. His pick was just an overthrow that sailed. That being the first game of his I've watched from start to finish, I am totally sold and understand completely why Harbaugh made the decision he did.

 

If Kaep stays healthy, the 49ers will be the team to beat for years to come. I'd take him over RGIII (even before his injury) straight up and hands down.

 

Flacco, meanwhile, showed what he can do with protection and some good receivers, and his ability to hit the deep throw is uncanny.

 

Please, Buddy/Doug, find us a QB.

 

Joe Flacco was drafted in the first round of 2008. Earlier in that first round, the Bills chose . . . Leodis McKelvin. At the end of the 2008 season, Jabari Greer became a free agent and left.

[Malazan]

Conversely, I'm curious as to what empirical evidence you have that Fitz does not suck.

 

You can re-read my previous posts. I literally post a link that shows him as average. I'm aware of Fitz's issues and as I have previously stated, the Bills need to upgrade that position, but I'm not sure that going with Ftiz and focusing on defense was the wrong way to go.

[Bronc24]

 

 

You can re-read my previous posts. I literally post a link that shows him as average. I'm aware of Fitz's issues and as I have previously stated, the Bills need to upgrade that position, but I'm not sure that going with Ftiz and focusing on defense was the wrong way to go.

 

Fair enough, but completely ignoring the most important position in football while putting all of your eggs in the Fitz basket shows absolute and complete incompetence by Buddy and the FO. I am curious how much Influence Chan had on the draft, because it was obvious he had almost as big a man-crush on Fitz as Cardinal.

[Simon]

I'm still not all that impressed with either guy. They're both solid NFL starters but we've been bad at QB for so long that I think we have a tendency to overrate average guys in different uniforms

[KOKBILLS]

Buddy signed him to his current starter money contract. His effort at upgrading the competition have been to bring in a 7th round pick, a pistol offense guy off the scrap heap, Vince Young, and a guy that the coach promised would never see the light of day. If he was really worried about the talent at the position, he has a bizarre track record over 3 years of showing it.

 

Exactly...

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'm still not all that impressed with either guy. They're both solid NFL starters but we've been bad at QB for so long that I think we have a tendency to overrate average guys in different uniforms

Would be interested to see your rankings. I do like both of these guys, but would take Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning for a couple more years, a healthy Big Ben, probably Luck, a healthy RGIII and maybe Russell Wilson over both. Not sure about Eli, and there is probably someone else that I'm foolishly forgetting.

[KOKBILLS]

I'm still not all that impressed with either guy. They're both solid NFL starters but we've been bad at QB for so long that I think we have a tendency to overrate average guys in different uniforms

 

Every QB has faults and needs a ton of help to win big in the NFL...But you're right...Those two are light-years ahead of what we've seen over these many, many years...And add to that the fact that they give their Franchises great hope for the future...Currently the Bills have zero hope...Notta...And that in itself would make Kaepernick, and Flacco, look like the next Montana to most Bills fans...