Buddy Nix and addressing the QB position

[mannc]

Q: How do you know when you've lost an argument?

 

A: When the only response you have left looks something like this:

 

 

Don't you have algebra homework to do? School on Monday comes faster than you think. And given your prior posts, you make a great case for longer school days.

[Maury Ballstein]

rg3 will never play a full season? i think you might be overstating that a little. rg3 took them to playoffs as a rookie remember? IMO he deserves a little credit from the NFL fans, the guy throws lasers out there to go with his lights out scrambling ability. (scared defenses so bad that rookie 6th round RB goes bananas for 1600 yards)

 

i agree with what johnc said about how blatantly bad it was for Nix to just go with the Fitzpatrick plan somehow. whoever it was that signed off on that does deserve to laughed out of the industry. if im giving out a grade for Nix its a D but easily amendable to an A plus if Russell Wilson or Colin Kaepernick was sprinkled in. MIght even be a B- with a kirk cousins who knows??

Edited January 26, 2013 by Ryan L Billz

[JohnC]

It IS all about the QB. Carroll's seahawks had back-to-back 7-9 seasons prior to lucking into Russell Wilson. So he didn't exactly build this great team. Without Wilson, i doubt they're significantly better than 7-9, and most likely would have missed the playoffs again (given how crowded the NFC was for those final few spots.

 

They had a superb defense and good running game. Their record reflects them having an overall good team. Russell Wilson struggled in the first half of the season. The team still won.

 

The Seahawks didn't luck into Wilson as you stated. They drafted him in the third round and received a lot of criticism from a number of so called experts, including Bill Polian. They selected Wilson based on what he could do, not what he couldn't do. It's more than luck; it's being smart.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

The Seahawks didn't luck into Wilson as you stated. They drafted him in the third round and received a lot of criticism from a number of so called experts, including Bill Polian. They selected Wilson based on what he could do, not what he couldn't do. It's more than luck; it's being smart.

They drafted him to be a back-up project. It was smart, and they got lucky. He had a third-fourth round grade by virtually everyone.

 

If they thought he was going to be anything like this they would have drafted him in the second round. If they knew they would have drafted him in the first and never signed Flynn, because no one was going to draft him in the first.

[JohnC]

They drafted him to be a back-up project. It was smart, and they got lucky. He had a third-fourth round grade by virtually everyone.

 

If they thought he was going to be anything like this they would have drafted him in the second round. If they knew they would have drafted him in the first and never signed Flynn, because no one was going to draft him in the first.

 

Some organizations act and benefit. Some organizations don't act and lose out. There are plenty of ready made excuses for historically losing francises. The Bills have been without a legitimate long term franchise qb since the Kelly era. That was nearly 20 years ago. That is an absurdity!

 

I don't think this team is near as far away as you do. Unfortunately a qb still leaves them miles away. Honestly, if we hadn't had to reload the defense two and now possibly three times, we'd be even closer. The perpetual scheme swapping I think is a much bigger offense than anything on draft day.

 

When the Bills played the Seahawks this season they lost 50 to 17. When the Bills played the 49ers they lost 45 to 3. Trust me the Bills are not as close as you make them out to be. Over the past number of years the Bills are 2-18 against playoff teams. There is still a long way to go before getting in the vicinity of the good teams in this league. Don't allow yourself to be hoodwinked by the PR act coming out of OBD. Just objectively watch the games----you'll then know what I'm talking about.

[Kelly the Dog]

Some organizations act and benefit. Some organizations don't act and lose out. There are plenty of ready made excuses for historically losing francises. The Bills have been without a legitimate long term franchise qb since the Kelly era. That was nearly 20 years ago. That is an absurdity!

And yet they traded a #1 draft pick for Drew Bledsoe, who was a good NFL QB (maybe not a good trade but they spent a #1 on him). They spent a #1 pick on Rob Johnson. They spent a #1 pick on JP Losman. They spent a #2 on Todd Collins. They spent a #3, just like Russell Wilson, on Trent Edwards. They just made bad choices.

 

The Bills were dumb (on the choices), and unlucky. They didn't ignore the position like you constantly are saying. They just made bad picks. It's as simple as that.

 

There are all kinds of ways to get great quarterbacks. We spent plenty of resources on QBs since the Kelly era. We just made bad choices and coached them poorly and surrounded them with equally bad players.

 

Bad franchise? Sure. Because we made bad decisions and didn't win.

[JohnC]

And yet they traded a #1 draft pick for Drew Bledsoe, who was a good NFL QB (maybe not a good trade but they spent a #1 on him). They spent a #1 pick on Rob Johnson. They spent a #1 pick on JP Losman. They spent a #2 on Todd Collins. They spent a #3, just like Russell Wilson, on Trent Edwards. They just made bad choices.

 

The Bills were dumb (on the choices), and unlucky. They didn't ignore the position like you constantly are saying. They just made bad picks. It's as simple as that.

 

There are all kinds of ways to get great quarterbacks. We spent plenty of resources on QBs since the Kelly era. We just made bad choices and coached them poorly and surrounded them with equally bad players.

 

 

You enumerated a long list of reasons why this organization has failed. Incompetent people making bad decisions lead to bad results. Nothing enlightening about something so obvious. A failed organization led by a buffoon owner. Now he is out of the picture. That in itself is a positive.

 

Bad franchise? Sure. Because we made bad decisions and didn't win.

 

There is a saying: That you can't refute the truth. There is also a Bill Parcells saying: You are what your record is. Nothing more needs to be said.

Edited January 26, 2013 by JohnC

[Nitro]

There are fans who could have done a better job than what we have seen from the Bills front office people, and I am being totally serious. In 2006, it might not be possible to do worse than Levy/Jauron. They entered this draft with the #8, and an extra early 3rd round pick. They came away with Donte Whittner, Josh McCargo, and Ashton Youboty, and this draft was stocked with talent. This is only one example.

 

So yes, the Bills usually draft at the level of a teenage kid who watches a little youtube and has a few draft magazines. Sometimes worse.

I concede to your point in that draft. It was baffling to say the least. Jaurons love of DBs hamstrung the Bills. Hope the new crew does better.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

But how do we even judge that draft.... The defensive players were drafted for a 34 and dropped in a 43 before they were even really expected to make a real contribution. Now they are going into get another coaching stuff that has no ties to them. It would be noteworthy to pull any real contributors on defense in that draft even if there were some good picks. There's also the obvious questions of what to make of the front office going into that as it stands out as different than the ones since.

 

Not trying to absolve him, but note how little we k ow based on it.

 

I'm not talking about judging only the drafts.

 

I'm judging Buddy Nix on the entirety of his work so far.

 

To me it's a copout to say that you can't judge the job he's done after 3 full years.

 

He hired the wrong coach. Their record was 16-32. We don't know who the quarterback is gonna be.

 

Accuse me of oversimplifying things but like I said earlier, I think the math is easy.

[Kelly the Dog]

You enumerated a long list of reasons why this organization has failed. Incompetent people making bad decisions lead to bad results. Nothing enlightening about something so obvious. A failed organization led by a buffoon owner. Now he is out of the picture. That in itself is a positive.

Except I was responding to you post specifically, where you said "Some organizations act and benefit. Some organizations don't act and lose out. There are plenty of ready made excuses for historically losing francises"

 

And then I showed you that you were dead wrong. The Bills did act, and acted often. They just made bad choices.

 

You constantly do not answer the specific post, or response to your own posts. You immediately just say the same thing over and over ad nauseum.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Some organizations act and benefit. Some organizations don't act and lose out. There are plenty of ready made excuses for historically losing francises. The Bills have been without a legitimate long term franchise qb since the Kelly era. That was nearly 20 years ago. That is an absurdity!

Yet, they've acted and it just hasn't worked out post-Kelly. They've traded for successful QBs (Bledsoe), brought in capable free agents (Flutie, Fitz, to a far lesser extent Holcomb and some spare change), traded for up-and-comers (Rob Johnson), traded up to draft one in the first round, drafted a second-rounder, drafted one in the third, and more. Look at the history of winning QBs and there is at least one that fits every one of these descriptions.

 

It hasn't worked out but it's been a holistic failure on the part of those players themselves, their coaches, and the front office. We talk about where the ultimate responsibility lies, but it's never actually that black and white. Some guys have been outright bad. Some guys have been put in bad positions. Some have shown promise and couldn't stay healthy or otherwise faltered. Some have been sabotaged by bad coaching and/or bad coaching decisions. Some were too close to the downside of their careers when acquired. What that doesn't change is that now is the time to go back to the well and treat it like the important decision it is. I can't say I agree with not addressing the situation over the past few years, but I can also understand the evaluation that Nix and co. made that they didn't want to throw a guy that they didn't fully believe in as a franchise QB into the current mix.

[JohnC]

Except I was responding to you post specifically, where you said "Some organizations act and benefit. Some organizations don't act and lose out. There are plenty of ready made excuses for historically losing francises"

 

And then I showed you that you were dead wrong. The Bills did act, and acted often. They just made bad choices.

 

You constantly do not answer the specific post, or response to your own posts. You immediately just say the same thing over and over ad nauseum.

 

Are you trying to suggest that Buddy Nix was active in pursuing a legitimate franchise qb for the team? Each Bills' regime has been inept in its own right. You are absolutely right that this historically losing franchise has an excessive number of reasons why it has failed. The central problem with this Ralph Wilson constructed franchise (now out of the picture} has little to do with the team on the field and everything to do with the caliber of people making the football decisions. The central problem running across the numerous regimes is the low caliber of people who have been in the front office.

 

Marv Levy is a good man who was clueless as a GM. Buddy Nix is a good man who is out of his depth as a GM. He is like a checkers player playing a game of chess. You can cite all the cases of individual decisions that have not worked out. That isn't the core of the problem. The problem with this troubled franchise that has existed for more than half a century and has lost more games that it has won is the incompetents who have worked in the front office.

 

There is an irony that is associated with the weird owner. The few people who have been successful in managing the team (Bill Polian and Chuck Knox) were shown the door.

 

You can make all the tiresome excuses you want for this bedraggled franchise. What you can't do is justify the record of this franchise operating in a system designed for parity. Ineptitude is simply ineptitude. What more can one say? Nix has been given a fair chance to do his job without interference from Ralph's finance people He has been a miserable failure. Yet plenty of people have the audacity to twist the reality of his record and make it out to be an acceptable standard. You won't get that stance from me.

[ganesh]

Well, he also darafted Marcel Dareus over AJ Green, Julio Jones, Aldon Smith, and JJ Watt, etc, but folks here seem to want to give him a pass on that one.

hindsight is 20-20. There is a no given that a AJ Green, Julio Jones or Aldon smith would have succeeded here. Heck, even a Mario Williams had a piss-poor average season. It is not just the players...It is the coaching staff, building the winning mentality.

[Tcali]

I'm not talking about judging only the drafts.

 

I'm judging Buddy Nix on the entirety of his work so far.

 

To me it's a copout to say that you can't judge the job he's done after 3 full years.

 

He hired the wrong coach. Their record was 16-32. We don't know who the quarterback is gonna be.

 

Accuse me of oversimplifying things but like I said earlier, I think the math is easy.

 

but other than the coach,the QB,and the LBs and massively overpaying an above average DE---he did do a few good things

[KOKBILLS]

hindsight is 20-20. There is a no given that a AJ Green, Julio Jones or Aldon Smith would have succeeded here.

 

Patrick Peterson is in that conversation as well...

 

No it's not a given...But is is a FACT that they are very, very, good All-Pro level NFL Football Players...Yes they landed in great systems, but they're not just good...They're much better than good...Did you see Jones in the Playoffs? Smith almost any game? I want to give Dareus all the lead-way in the world...It's not a bad thing if Marcell ends up being the 8th best player from that Draft...But I would trade him straight up for any of those players tomorrow, and I would not give it a second thought...The chances that Dareus will end up being better than Green, Jones, Smith, Watt, and even Peterson are just not great at this point ...

 

but other than the coach,the QB,and the LBs and massively overpaying an above average DE---he did do a few good things

 

That's fair to say...

[Thurmal34]

This is out of hand. Nix has stated since Y1 that if there was a "10 year guy" there he would take him.

 

It's clear he didn't see Kap or Wilson as 10 year guys. I can live with that. How many here saw them as "10 year guys"?

 

Many on this board may have been intrigued with these guys, but few were saying they were "build around me for 10 years" type players.

 

Buddy isn't hard to figure out. He told all of you what he was going to do. How can anyone be confused? It was very clear.

 

To paraphase NIx:

 

"If there's a guy there that we feel can be a 10 year guy, we'll take him. Otherwise, we'll build until we find a guy we can plug in to a developed system."

 

Why are folks angry or confused? Why do folks keep saying he overpaid Fitz? Why are people griping that the Bills don't have Dalton or Ponder?

[KOKBILLS]

This is out of hand. Nix has stated since Y1 that if there was a "10 year guy" there he would take him.

 

It's clear he didn't see Kap or Wilson as 10 year guys. I can live with that. How many here saw them as "10 year guys"?

 

 

How many here are NFL GM's and "one of the best talent evaluators around?"

 

If you can live with the fact that Nix missed on Kaep or Wilson...Fine...Good for you!

 

But I'm of the mind that if you sit around and wait for a clear Franchise QB to fall into your lap, while knowing you only have Fitz and a whole bunch of nothing behind him at the most important position, you're not going to be an NFL GM for long...

 

Unless you're The Bills GM of course...

Edited January 27, 2013 by KOKBILLS

[mannc]

 

hindsight is 20-20. There is a no given that a AJ Green, Julio Jones or Aldon smith would have succeeded here. Heck, even a Mario Williams had a piss-poor average season. It is not just the players...It is the coaching staff, building the winning mentality.

If that's the case, then we should just give up because no one can ever know anything, and we can never pass judgment on any GM because different players who we could have taken (and who have been wildly successful on other teams) might have sucked here. The only thing we do know is that after three years of Buddy running this team it is still a bad team with a dreadful defense and no QB.

[JohnC]

hindsight is 20-20. There is a no given that a AJ Green, Julio Jones or Aldon smith would have succeeded here. Heck, even a Mario Williams had a piss-poor average season. It is not just the players...It is the coaching staff, building the winning mentality.

 

The hindsight argument never made sense to me. You don't judge the qualilty of a draft on draft day. You make your judgment after the players have played for a few years. You don't instantaneously make a judgment on a GM's player transactions at the point of the transaction but after a reasonable period of time has passed. The reason why the players you mentioned wouln't have the same impact that they have with their current teams is because they would be playing along side a weaker pool of players, the players selected mostly by the current regime.

 

If you are going to be critical of the coaching staff then ask yourself who hired the HC who assembled the staff? Who is responsible for assembling the roster? If Gailey was irrationally infatuated with Fitz you don't think that the GM who signed him to a rich deal also agreed with that dumb assessment? The boss is the boss. The underlings are the underlings. If you want to instill a culture of accountability in the organization then have the guts to hold people accountable, including people at the top.

[ganesh]

This is out of hand. Nix has stated since Y1 that if there was a "10 year guy" there he would take him.

 

It's clear he didn't see Kap or Wilson as 10 year guys. I can live with that. How many here saw them as "10 year guys"?

 

Many on this board may have been intrigued with these guys, but few were saying they were "build around me for 10 years" type players.

 

Buddy isn't hard to figure out. He told all of you what he was going to do. How can anyone be confused? It was very clear.

 

To paraphase NIx:

 

"If there's a guy there that we feel can be a 10 year guy, we'll take him. Otherwise, we'll build until we find a guy we can plug in to a developed system."

 

Why are folks angry or confused? Why do folks keep saying he overpaid Fitz? Why are people griping that the Bills don't have Dalton or Ponder?

 

I agree that no one were foreseeing that Wilson or Kaepernick will be 10 year starters. Otherwise, those guys would have gone on the Top 5-10 of the draft. However, I believe the flaw is in Nix's premise that he wants to draft a QB only if he thinks he will be a 10 year starter. The Draft is a crapshoot and you have to take a risk. If he really wanted a "for-sure 10 year starter" then he should have traded up for RGIII with the Rams.