Deadspin: Bills Fleecing Taxpayers

[NoSaint]

 

 

He says this early in the piece. But let these guys rant on...

 

 

 

What extra tax revenue will be generated by the renevations to "more than" pay for the renovations?

 

 

Anyway, this guy's main point is the tiny amount the team is paying. You guy scan go off on him if it feels good, but referencing the Yankees or the Mets or the Nets (or Jerry Jones, for that matter) ignores the vast amounts of money those stadium owners put up for thier palaces. Pechesky is saying it's wrong that the Bills put up essentially nothing. He's right.

 

yea, i know he mentioned it - but i know sometimes these guys dont hold themselves totally accountable to past articles. im pretty sure barry has been highly consistent on this one.

 

its nice that we have the bills longer term, but it sucks that sports financing has gone this direction.

[MarkyMannn]

That comes out to roughly 110 bucks per person in Erie County.

 

Maybe 5x that or more as how many people in Erie county pay property taxes? When you subtract children and the huge number of people on assistance, maybe 100,000 taxpayers make up that $103 mill. Now you are at $1,000 per homeowner/taxpayer.

 

The lease negotiations were between 3 parties, the Bills, State & County. County exec Poloncarz showed his negotiation skills (NOT) on his picking up such a huge tab from one of the state if not nation's poorest and highly taxed counties.

 

Yes I know EC generates sales tax revenue whcih comes from ALL people, but still................

[NoSaint]

 

Team moves to [Toronto|Los Angeles|London|Wherever], county/city/state receive no more tax revenue... Seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

If the team was building a billion dollar stadium (like they're doing in Minnesota), and the taxpayers were on the hook for $800+M (like they're doing in Minnesota), then I'd agree that you'll never make that money up in tax revenue. But a "paltry" $150M over seven years? Shouldn't be a big deal I wouldn't think.

 

but thats taking on the assumption that weve gotten to the point that either the city caves to their every whim, or they move. its a shame that this is the dynamic in the first place. the bills have a right to go for the best deal possible but leveraging the fans emotional ties for cash is still a bit lame. i wont fault their negotiators for doing their jobs, but it is a bit much that the bills got the whole thing essentially given to them in exchange for agreeing not to leave for a few years.

[Ronin]

Have any facts/links/research to back that up with? Seriously.

 

I appreciate the implicit admission that you haven't done a lick of homework on the topic, but that info is all over the web. Do a simple google search. I've done that homework a long, long time ago.

 

Nevertheless, if the revenues exceed the taxes, then why the taxes? Think about it.

 

The NFL, like all other pro sports teams, major leagues or not, are expense items to a community and not closed business systems thereby requiring them to bilk taxpayers, which is now largely deficit spending.

 

Those complaining about this and helping out multi-multi-millionaire sports teams owners are absolutely right.

 

How many of those in this forum that own their own businesses can tap other people that they call "taxes" or "taxpayers" for money to advance their businesses under the guise that they'll be paying taxes as a result? None unless they own huge corporations or commercial banks or their financial subsidiaries.

 

SOME taxpayers are getting screwed. The state kicks in $123 million, not much per NYS taxpayer. Erie county kicks in $103 million, per taxpayer that is a lot of $$$.

 

What's "not much?"

 

Then consider, this is just one of thousands of spending programs, add it all up and maybe it'll make a little more sense. P

 

Perhaps pro sports teams should revamp their business models so that they don't have to have others pay their expenses for them. But what great businessmen they are, right?

 

Gee, give me a few million from other people and I'll show you what a great businessman I am too.

 

Either way, it's no wonder that this nation is in the state it's in, everyone has their pet spending likes that they justify to themselves. Add it all up, and well, here we are.

 

Perhaps the players and coaches should get paid from what's left instead of off the top thereby leaving the rest to the citizenry, many of whom don't care for a completely unnecessary thing that they don't enjoy, or deficit spending to cover the balance.

 

I understand the frustration of the author. No doubt he displayed the same frustration with Yankee Stadium. I think the article is pretty well written and supported by facts. But these public financing deals are the ransom we "fans" pay to keep our teams in town. Pro sports has gotten way out of hand and I think will struggle more in the future.

 

It shouldn't have to struggle, the salaries in the game need to be reduced, that's all. Think about it, ~ $200M over 10 years say, that's $20/year. That can easily come of contracts for coaches and players. Heck, Mario's contract alone would have paid for a good chunk of a new stadium.

[Mr. WEO]

Team moves to [Toronto|Los Angeles|London|Wherever], county/city/state receive no more tax revenue... Seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

If the team was building a billion dollar stadium (like they're doing in Minnesota), and the taxpayers were on the hook for $800+M (like they're doing in Minnesota), then I'd agree that you'll never make that money up in tax revenue. But a "paltry" $150M over seven years? Shouldn't be a big deal I wouldn't think.

 

Well, the team's NOT moving to LA, so again I ask--where is the extra revenue coming from that will generate extra tax revenue to pay for this now and over the next 7 years?

 

You can't say "it's cheaper than" an alternative outcome that can't happen.

 

And of course if the team moves after 7 years, the state and county will still be paying off the "renovated" empty hulk still known as "Ralph Wilson Stadium".

[Fezmid]

Well, the team's NOT moving to LA, so again I ask--where is the extra revenue coming from that will generate extra tax revenue to pay for this now and over the next 7 years?

 

You can't say "it's cheaper than" an alternative outcome that can't happen.

 

And of course if the team moves after 7 years, the state and county will still be paying off the "renovated" empty hulk still known as "Ralph Wilson Stadium".

You used the word extra, not me.

 

The team signed a lease to stay in WNY. If they hadn't, they could've moved so that WAS an alternative. Now you have to compare the the tax revenue for the next seven years to the amount WNY is paying over that same time period.

 

New York taxes income at roughly 9%. The Bills have a payroll of roughly $79M. So in one year, that's roughly $7M in tax revenue and over seven years, is roughly $50M (or higher, as salaries continue to rise). (I know that's not an exact number -- they only pay taxes to NY on the home games, but opponents pay taxes on games in WNY, so we'll call it a wash).

 

http://www.sportscity.com/nfl/salaries/buffalo-bills-salaries/

 

That doesn't count the extra property tax revenue from players who live here, sales tax revenue from players who shop here, hotel taxes from visiting players, etc, etc, etc. Plus, I'm not sure who gets parking and concession revenues - I'm sure the Bills get some, but probably not 100%; anyone know?

 

On top of that, there are other part time and full time jobs to support the stadium, concession stands, restaurants, parking attendants, etc, around the area. I remember reading about financial hardships people had the last time the NHL had a lockout because nobody was going to the stadium. All of those people who are working are also paying taxes.

 

I have no idea if it's a net zero proposition in our case, but it's hardly "fleecing" the city/state. Honestly, I think most people would see it as a pretty good deal. (I know people in MN do).

[NoSaint]

 

 

Well, the team's NOT moving to LA, so again I ask--where is the extra revenue coming from that will generate extra tax revenue to pay for this now and over the next 7 years?

 

You can't say "it's cheaper than" an alternative outcome that can't happen.

 

And of course if the team moves after 7 years, the state and county will still be paying off the "renovated" empty hulk still known as "Ralph Wilson Stadium".

 

Keeping LA open is making the league a fortune in these stadium deals.

[RkFast]

but thats taking on the assumption that weve gotten to the point that either the city caves to their every whim, or they move. its a shame that this is the dynamic in the first place. the bills have a right to go for the best deal possible but leveraging the fans emotional ties for cash is still a bit lame. i wont fault their negotiators for doing their jobs, but it is a bit much that the bills got the whole thing essentially given to them in exchange for agreeing not to leave for a few years.

 

But youre ignoring YOUR part in all this.

 

Fans DEMAND the new "sports palaces"

Fans DEMAND a winning product and the hundreds of millions of dollars in player and coach salaries that requires.

 

And if they dont get it? The fans stop coming. So owners have a huge amount of overhead and when they dont own the building, go to those that do, the muinicipalities, and say "Look....fans are demanding a product thats costs [huge money] to operate and amenities to YOUR building. So you gotta kick in or I cant sell tickets. And if I cant do that, Im out."

 

Charles Wang with the Islanders when through this. The guy poured tens of millions of his own money into the team. But the restrictive lease where he couldnt get any money back from consessions sold, plus a complete dump and broken down arena the local municipality outright refused to fix resulted in fans not coming any more. He then got absolutely killed financially each year. So he left.

 

Look...we, as fans have a right to and should demand such things like a winning team and a really nice place to go see it.

 

Im just saying you cant leave that part out of the equasion. Its not "leveraging emotional ties" as much as it is meeting consumer demand to stay in business.

Edited December 27, 2012 by RkFast

[Marv's Neighbor]

Right, it's the Bills. Politicians never screw us taxpayers.

If we could somehow get the $1B+ we sent to Iraq and the $1B+ we sent to Libya last year, diverted to our new Stadium, we'd be all set!

 

At least WE would be greatful and wouldn't hate the place where the money came from!

[Mr. WEO]

You used the word extra, not me.

 

The team signed a lease to stay in WNY. If they hadn't, they could've moved so that WAS an alternative. Now you have to compare the the tax revenue for the next seven years to the amount WNY is paying over that same time period.

 

New York taxes income at roughly 9%. The Bills have a payroll of roughly $79M. So in one year, that's roughly $7M in tax revenue and over seven years, is roughly $50M (or higher, as salaries continue to rise). (I know that's not an exact number -- they only pay taxes to NY on the home games, but opponents pay taxes on games in WNY, so we'll call it a wash).

 

http://www.sportscit...bills-salaries/

 

That doesn't count the extra property tax revenue from players who live here, sales tax revenue from players who shop here, hotel taxes from visiting players, etc, etc, etc. Plus, I'm not sure who gets parking and concession revenues - I'm sure the Bills get some, but probably not 100%; anyone know?

 

On top of that, there are other part time and full time jobs to support the stadium, concession stands, restaurants, parking attendants, etc, around the area. I remember reading about financial hardships people had the last time the NHL had a lockout because nobody was going to the stadium. All of those people who are working are also paying taxes.

 

I have no idea if it's a net zero proposition in our case, but it's hardly "fleecing" the city/state. Honestly, I think most people would see it as a pretty good deal. (I know people in MN do).

 

You can't keep saying the extra taxes to pay for the renovations will come from keeping the Bills in Erie co. It makes no sense. If the lease forces the Bills to stay for the renovations, then you can't count the cost of the Bills moving.

 

You said the tax revenue will more than make up for the amount the county and state would have to pay. Then you say that the current revenue generated is 50 million today, without renovation.

 

There would have to be extra revenue, on top of the 50 million the Bills Inc. already puts into the NYC/Erie coffers (and is not being spent on renovations, but on everything else the county and state spends money on).

 

In order to pay the extra 270 million in renovations, there would have to be an extra 270 million in taxes collected. Pretty simple. So how does renovating the stadium more than pay for itself? Do the Bills double or triple their ticket and suite prices? Triple or quadruple the salaries of their employees?

 

If the new owner moves after 7 years, everyone left behind will have been totally fleeced.

 

Here's a scenario that will make the Bills will move to LA crowd soil themselves: Ralph lingers on a few more years, the stadium renovations are completed. Ralph passes and The new owner comes in and, after agreeing to sell a chunk to AEG group, ground is broken in LA. Year 5 or 6 of the lease, the LA stadium is done. New owner breaks the lease, pays whatever's left of the lease penalty and moves the team. Ralph Wilson Stadium becomes a showplace for drum corps competitions, the Erie County Fair, and Monster Jam.

 

Keeping LA open is making the league a fortune in these stadium deals.

 

These owners are the shrewdest men in sports, hands down.

[Ray]

i dont keep a spreadsheet of author opinions or anything, but im pretty sure hes strongly against stadium funding across the board.

At least he is consistent. I think the Bills and the money given out by the state and county ends up being a wash by the time the tax money is collected by the state for for income, property, sales etc.....There are very little businesses in Erie County with a payroll of close to $200M. There are close to 60 players and their families along with coaches and administrative staff and their families who pay taxes, buy things in NYS. A $200M payroll over 10 years will generate roughly 150M in income taxes not counting the sales and property taxes etc...there you have your money people.

On game days roughly 40% of the fan base is from out of the area and spends money...that is about 30k people per game. That's 240k people to the area on 8 days a year. That happens for NOTHING else in Buffalo. If those people spend $20 their entire time in Buffalo that is close to 5M spent in Buffalo and that's 50M over ten years. So you have money spent in the area that is a whole lot more than would ever be spent in the area if the Bills were not here. Does it equal the cost? Like I said probably a wash when all things are considered but the historical and cultural part of having them in the area is immeasurable. It is a huge part of the identity of the area and a good investment in my opinion.

[Maddog69]

You should take a math class. If the revenues for the county exceeded the taxes, then they wouldn't have to levy the tax.

 

Otherwise, do your homework, it's been disproven many times over that pro sports teams do not bring in money to their states/municipalities.

 

All I know is that anyone that agrees with this kind of stuff, for us, for them (downstaters), etc., should clam up when it comes to overspending governments.

Tell that to all of the people who make a fortune off of parking cars in their yards near the stadium. Not to mention the property values. If the Bills left, those lots near RWS would go from selling for millions of dollars to being virtually worthless. Tell it to the bars and restaurants around the stadium that make 90% of their annual revenues on those 9 home game days, to Erie could who gets a pretty sizeable property tax payment from the numerous players on the team with HUGE houses that normal people cannot afford, to the dozens and dozens of people who work for the Bills, for the vendors on game days and for the businesses around the stadium.

 

Maybe you should do YOUR homework before being condescending and rude to someone expressing an opinion that does not agree with yours.

[peterpan]

• They're going to wire the bathrooms so you can hear live game sound while you piss. It'll cost $600,000, but the Bills are only on the hook for $164,000.

 

God damnit still no beer shelves in the bathrooms

[Maddog69]

The fact that they got the Bills to pay for any of this and to start paying rent for the first time ever is a miracle. Its a much better deal than I was expecting. Arguing over whether Govt's should pay for this kind of stuff is pointless. It happens all the time in all types of business. If NYS and Erie County did not agree to it, there are dozens of cities in the US and abroad who would definitely offer up much more than what was agreed to in this deal. Just look at what Baltimore gave to Art Modell to steal the Browns. 20 yrs of guaranteed sellouts regardless of on field performance or any other factor. I'm surprised RWS has not asked for something similar.

[bbb]

The fact that they got the Bills to pay for any of this and to start paying rent for the first time ever is a miracle. Its a much better deal than I was expecting. Arguing over whether Govt's should pay for this kind of stuff is pointless. It happens all the time in all types of business. If NYS and Erie County did not agree to it, there are dozens of cities in the US and abroad who would definitely offer up much more than what was agreed to in this deal. Just look at what Baltimore gave to Art Modell to steal the Browns. 20 yrs of guaranteed sellouts regardless of on field performance or any other factor. I'm surprised RWS has not asked for something similar.

 

This nails the whole thing. Thank you.

[Mr. WEO]

At least he is consistent. I think the Bills and the money given out by the state and county ends up being a wash by the time the tax money is collected by the state for for income, property, sales etc.....There are very little businesses in Erie County with a payroll of close to $200M. There are close to 60 players and their families along with coaches and administrative staff and their families who pay taxes, buy things in NYS. A $200M payroll over 10 years will generate roughly 150M in income taxes not counting the sales and property taxes etc...there you have your money people.

On game days roughly 40% of the fan base is from out of the area and spends money...that is about 30k people per game. That's 240k people to the area on 8 days a year. That happens for NOTHING else in Buffalo. If those people spend $20 their entire time in Buffalo that is close to 5M spent in Buffalo and that's 50M over ten years. So you have money spent in the area that is a whole lot more than would ever be spent in the area if the Bills were not here. Does it equal the cost? Like I said probably a wash when all things are considered but the historical and cultural part of having them in the area is immeasurable. It is a huge part of the identity of the area and a good investment in my opinion.

 

No, there you don't have the money--you are only listing what the Bills currently generate for the governent and the government quickly spends.

 

All of this current tax income--it is already being spent on other Erie/NYS expenditures--it's not sitting in a bank account looking for a new project to fund. NYS (and likely Erie) are broke with the current tax revenue the Bills generate. How will the same current tax income the Bills generate now also fund an additional 240 million project?

 

The Bills are here. They have been here and will be here for at least the several more years the improvements will take place.

 

The fact that they got the Bills to pay for any of this and to start paying rent for the first time ever is a miracle. Its a much better deal than I was expecting. Arguing over whether Govt's should pay for this kind of stuff is pointless. It happens all the time in all types of business. If NYS and Erie County did not agree to it, there are dozens of cities in the US and abroad who would definitely offer up much more than what was agreed to in this deal. Just look at what Baltimore gave to Art Modell to steal the Browns. 20 yrs of guaranteed sellouts regardless of on field performance or any other factor. I'm surprised RWS has not asked for something similar.

 

Can you name the dozens of cities without a team that are waiting to offer a stadium for the Bills to move to?

 

Tell that to all of the people who make a fortune off of parking cars in their yards near the stadium. Not to mention the property values. If the Bills left, those lots near RWS would go from selling for millions of dollars to being virtually worthless. Tell it to the bars and restaurants around the stadium that make 90% of their annual revenues on those 9 home game days, to Erie could who gets a pretty sizeable property tax payment from the numerous players on the team with HUGE houses that normal people cannot afford, to the dozens and dozens of people who work for the Bills, for the vendors on game days and for the businesses around the stadium.

 

Maybe you should do YOUR homework before being condescending and rude to someone expressing an opinion that does not agree with yours.

 

If your restaurant makes 90% of its revenue on 9 Sundays, your restaurant is likely a kettle corn trailer.

 

Also, if the players moved out of their HUGE houses, some other rich people would move in and pay the same amount in property taxes.

[NoSaint]

 

 

If your restaurant makes 90% of its revenue on 9 Sundays, your restaurant is likely a kettle corn trailer.

 

 

Bravo. it actually got a real laugh.

[Big Turk]

 

 

You can't keep saying the extra taxes to pay for the renovations will come from keeping the Bills in Erie co. It makes no sense. If the lease forces the Bills to stay for the renovations, then you can't count the cost of the Bills moving.

 

You said the tax revenue will more than make up for the amount the county and state would have to pay. Then you say that the current revenue generated is 50 million today, without renovation.

 

There would have to be extra revenue, on top of the 50 million the Bills Inc. already puts into the NYC/Erie coffers (and is not being spent on renovations, but on everything else the county and state spends money on).

 

In order to pay the extra 270 million in renovations, there would have to be an extra 270 million in taxes collected. Pretty simple. So how does renovating the stadium more than pay for itself? Do the Bills double or triple their ticket and suite prices? Triple or quadruple the salaries of their employees?

 

If the new owner moves after 7 years, everyone left behind will have been totally fleeced.

 

Here's a scenario that will make the Bills will move to LA crowd soil themselves: Ralph lingers on a few more years, the stadium renovations are completed. Ralph passes and The new owner comes in and, after agreeing to sell a chunk to AEG group, ground is broken in LA. Year 5 or 6 of the lease, the LA stadium is done. New owner breaks the lease, pays whatever's left of the lease penalty and moves the team. Ralph Wilson Stadium becomes a showplace for drum corps competitions, the Erie County Fair, and Monster Jam.

 

 

 

These owners are the shrewdest men in sports, hands down.

 

Lets not forget the $400 million fee is on top of the $250+ million fee the new owners would have to pay to the NFL as a relocation fee. I don't care how much they can charge for tickets, recouping a $650+ million loss is a huge pill to swallow which is why I doubt any of them would break the lease. Its a bad financial decision especially when they likely will be highly financially leveraged paying the $1 billion rough estimate for the franchise...

 

Not many people are going to throw away $650+ million...and if they do break the lease we get $400 million so how do we get fleeced?

Edited December 27, 2012 by matter2003

[Maddog69]

No, there you don't have the money--you are only listing what the Bills currently generate for the governent and the government quickly spends.

 

All of this current tax income--it is already being spent on other Erie/NYS expenditures--it's not sitting in a bank account looking for a new project to fund. NYS (and likely Erie) are broke with the current tax revenue the Bills generate. How will the same current tax income the Bills generate now also fund an additional 240 million project?

 

The Bills are here. They have been here and will be here for at least the several more years the improvements will take place.

 

 

Can you name the dozens of cities without a team that are waiting to offer a stadium for the Bills to move to?

 

 

 

If your restaurant makes 90% of its revenue on 9 Sundays, your restaurant is likely a kettle corn trailer.

 

Also, if the players moved out of their HUGE houses, some other rich people would move in and pay the same amount in property taxes.

1.) Can you name the "other rich people" who would line up to buy the property and pay the same taxes? And if these fantasy people existed, wouldnt they already own expensive homes and pay high taxes? We don;t have a lot of homeless rich people in Buffalo

2.) Do some research, the bars and restaurants around the stadium make most of their revenue on game days just as the bars and restaurants around the Arena downtown make their revenue on game nights. I guess common sense isnt too common on this board

3.) The cities reportedly interested in an NFL team - LA, Santa Clara, Portland, San Antonio, OK City, Toronto, London, Mexico City. Those are the ones I can think of. Since every other city with a team has paid to build stadiums and keep their teams, it stands to reason than any city wanting a team would be willing to do the same. I used the Baltimore example earlier. They paid a ton to get the Browns to leave Cleveland and become the Ravens

[CodeMonkey]

That comes out to roughly 110 bucks per person in Erie County.

That's $110 I'd rather have in my pocket if I lived in Erie county and did not give a **** about the Bills.

Particularly since the Bills are the only thing it is used for, and only for 10 (or less) games per year. Crazy.

Edited December 27, 2012 by CodeMonkey