PromoTheRobot Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Yup, I'm moving to the Oakland Hills next month so I'm getting seasons to The Black Hole. And for all we know they could be gone too. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 If one buys a season ticket for the Bills is it for the seven regular season games and preseason games at the Ralph with an option to include the Toronto game? Or for the preseason games in Toronto in prior years was a season ticket buyer expected to pay for these out of country exhibition games? Can't one make the claim that one benefit of having a regular season game in Toronto is that season tickets are cheaper because there are fewer games at the Ralph? I would appreciate answers to these pricing questions from anyone who has had season tickets for a number of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 If one buys a season ticket for the Bills is it for the seven regular season games and preseason games at the Ralph with an option to include the Toronto game? Or for the preseason games in Toronto in prior years was a season ticket buyer expected to pay for these out of country exhibition games? Can't one make the claim that one benefit of having a regular season game in Toronto is that season tickets are cheaper because there are fewer games at the Ralph? I would appreciate answers to these pricing questions from anyone who has had season tickets for a number of years. Toronto tickets are not offered as part of the season package by the Bills, though the Bills do make e-mail offers to anyone wanting to buy Toronto tickets. Rogers is in charge of selling those seats. At least that's how it's been. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 And for all we know they could be gone too. PTR Good, I was only kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) I was up all night trying to think of how to state my position a different way. I couldn't. But to answer your question--yes, of course. If Ralph "is comfortable" selling it to a guy who tells him for certain the team will be moved, then that is his right. But it destroys your premise that he is interested in keeping the team in Buffalo for the fans and is not all about the money. My position, like yours, was assuming he wasn't trying to screw the fans. And if that is true, he should sell the team now to someone who shares his belief that the Bills should stay in Buffalo. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. I never said that Ralph is not all about the money, so I'm not sure how my premise is "destroyed". I actually think he's a hard-bitten capitalist. What I actually said was that Ralph is far more loyal than a subsequent investor might be (who's beholden to fellow investors and might not have any history with the area). I think he's demonstrated this loyalty by continuing to creatively operate within the constraints of the Buffalo market rather than bolting to greener pastures and having it "easier". To make his franchise work the hard way, he's had to: - consistently seek very modest stadium upgrades vs. the new stadiums that the majority of his peers are or have gotten over the last 10-15 years - keep ticket prices among the lowest in the league and not pursuing PSL's - push his peers to enact revenue sharing measures, sometimes having to be a boat-rocker within the owners' club to accomplish his objectives - and yes, I view his initial efforts to try and cultivate the Toronto market for the next owner as just the latest example of his working to make the WNY market work for an NFL franchise. Many believe that the ONLY way Ralph can demonstrate loyalty is by ENSURING the next owner locks into Buffalo. I disagree because I think that would only offer a false sense of security. Ralph knows this, so by building the revenue sharing infrastructure within the NFL, avoiding stadium debt service and yes, strengthening WNY's supporting demographics by broadening the market into Canada, he has laid the groundwork and established a solid base on which a Buffalo-based franchise can be sustained over the long haul - for himself and the next owner who he knows may NOT be intrinsically loyal to Buffalo. It's like the old adage about how teaching a man to fish is more sustainable than giving a man a fish. Ralph is teaching Buffalo to fish rather than throwing a fish on our plate so we don't have to rely on ironclad contracts without escape clauses and owner/investor loyalty which he knows is going out of style. While this approach doesn't offer the immediate certainty we'd all like, I think that this market-based plan (and I hope I'm right about it!) is pretty freaking genius myself. Edited May 31, 2012 by BillnutinHouston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 If one buys a season ticket for the Bills is it for the seven regular season games and preseason games at the Ralph with an option to include the Toronto game? Or for the preseason games in Toronto in prior years was a season ticket buyer expected to pay for these out of country exhibition games? Can't one make the claim that one benefit of having a regular season game in Toronto is that season tickets are cheaper because there are fewer games at the Ralph? I would appreciate answers to these pricing questions from anyone who has had season tickets for a number of years. +25 year season ticket holder here. bills season ticket packages are for regular and preseason games played ONLY at the ralph. there is no cost, obligation, "option" or preferred status given to season ticket holders for games played in toronto. we do receive information on how to obtain toronto tix. in the current 5 year deal with toronto there was one regular season game in each year and one pre-season game in years 1,3 & 5. although the preseason game for year 5 (this year) was given back. so there are 9 home games this year (7 reg & 2 pre)in the package. many folks complain about the preseason tix costing the same as the regular season. sometimes i have a hard time trying to give away preseason games for free. i'd say they are worth about $10 bux each, while i have sold my early regular season game tix using the nfl ticket exchange for $250 each. obviously season ticket packages are cheaper with one less home game. having said that, it gets convoluted because some years ticket prices go up and other years they stay the same. this year "some" sections actually went down quite a bit. the tops family section went from $40 down to $30 per game (25% drop) and the rockpile section went from $40 down to $25 per game (37% drop). i sit in section 110,my price this year stayed the same as last year. as a season ticket holder, i pay $80 per game (9 games) and the "window" price is $90 per game. even tho the first couple regular season games have sold out of individual tix, the bills have held back a block of tix to sell as complete season tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canks Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Buffalo should get 1 Argonauts games per year for the next 5, it's only fair. + a large minority of their season tickets come from WNY. It's only fair + the level of qb play in the cfl is amazing, take flute, brady, and moon for example. trust me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billshank Redemption Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Whatever I'm pissed but what can you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Toronto tickets are not offered as part of the season package by the Bills, though the Bills do make e-mail offers to anyone wanting to buy Toronto tickets. Rogers is in charge of selling those seats. At least that's how it's been. PTR Thanks for the response. +25 year season ticket holder here. bills season ticket packages are for regular and preseason games played ONLY at the ralph. there is no cost, obligation, "option" or preferred status given to season ticket holders for games played in toronto. we do receive information on how to obtain toronto tix. in the current 5 year deal with toronto there was one regular season game in each year and one pre-season game in years 1,3 & 5. although the preseason game for year 5 (this year) was given back. so there are 9 home games this year (7 reg & 2 pre)in the package. many folks complain about the preseason tix costing the same as the regular season. sometimes i have a hard time trying to give away preseason games for free. i'd say they are worth about $10 bux each, while i have sold my early regular season game tix using the nfl ticket exchange for $250 each. obviously season ticket packages are cheaper with one less home game. having said that, it gets convoluted because some years ticket prices go up and other years they stay the same. this year "some" sections actually went down quite a bit. the tops family section went from $40 down to $30 per game (25% drop) and the rockpile section went from $40 down to $25 per game (37% drop). i sit in section 110,my price this year stayed the same as last year. as a season ticket holder, i pay $80 per game (9 games) and the "window" price is $90 per game. even tho the first couple regular season games have sold out of individual tix, the bills have held back a block of tix to sell as complete season tickets. Thanks for the response. Very informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) Many believe that the ONLY way Ralph can demonstrate loyalty is by ENSURING the next owner locks into Buffalo. I disagree because I think that would only offer a false sense of security. Ralph knows this, so by building the revenue sharing infrastructure within the NFL, avoiding stadium debt service and yes, strengthening WNY's supporting demographics by broadening the market into Canada, he has laid the groundwork and established a solid base on which a Buffalo-based franchise can be sustained over the long haul - for himself and the next owner who he knows may NOT be intrinsically loyal to Buffalo. It's like the old adage about how teaching a man to fish is more sustainable than giving a man a fish. Ralph is teaching Buffalo to fish rather than throwing a fish on our plate so we don't have to rely on ironclad contracts without escape clauses and owner/investor loyalty which he knows is going out of style. While this approach doesn't offer the immediate certainty we'd all like, I think that this market-based plan (and I hope I'm right about it!) is pretty freaking genius myself. When Tom Golisano sold the Sabres to Pegula he sold it on the condition (put it in the sell contract) that Pegula couldn't move the team or sell the team to someone who would move it out of Buffalo. Golisano even claimed that he could have sold the team for a higher price to someone who potentially wanted to move the franchise. That doesn't mean that the league would have approved of the move. But my basic point is that the current owner has the ability to ensure that the team stays in the region after he passes. I have no problem with broadening the market. It is done by all franchises in a variety of ways. But let's not portray the situation as a one way street where the owner is being benevolent to the supplicant region. The market he is in has from the very beginning provided him with very generous public subsidies. Edited May 24, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 When Tom Golisano sold the Sabres to Pegula he sold it on the condition (put it in the sell contract) that Pegula couldn't move the team or sell the team to someone who would move it out of Buffalo. Golisano even claimed that he could have sold the team for a higher price to someone who potentially wanted to move the franchise. That doesn't mean that the league would have approved of the move. But my basic point is that the current owner has the ability to ensure that the team stays in the region after he passes. I have no problem with broadening the market. It is done by all franchises in a variety of ways. But let's not portray the situation as a one way street where the owner is being benevolent to the supplicant region. The market he is in has from the very beginning provided him with very generous public subsidies. Not unless RW sells before he dies...been written a thousand times that there are no stipulations on a sale to avoid estate taxes...RW can't do anything from beyond the grave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Not unless RW sells before he dies...been written a thousand times that there are no stipulations on a sale to avoid estate taxes...RW can't do anything from beyond the grave There will be no estate taxes due when Ralph dies as long as his wife is still alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 There will be no estate taxes due when Ralph dies as long as his wife is still alive. That's only true if Ralph leaves his ownership interest in the team to his wife - - which Ralph has publicly said he will not do. He could always change his mind about that, but I have seen no indication that his plans have changed in that regard. Have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Not unless RW sells before he dies...been written a thousand times that there are no stipulations on a sale to avoid estate taxes...RW can't do anything from beyond the grave I'm aware of what you are saying. That is exactly my point. He could make arrangements to ensure the team stays in the region. That is not his strategy. He is holding on to the end. That is the owner's prerogative. If a billionaire hedge fund owner wins the bid when the team is auctioned off he can do what he wants with the team, assuming approaval by the league. If the winning bidder wants to move the team to LA it will be moved. If the winning bid comes from the Rogers group in Toronto the team will eventually be moved to Canada. One advantage a Toronto Group has is that it can fairly make the claim that Toronto is already part of the current market so there shouldn't be any re-location indemnity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 That's only true if Ralph leaves his ownership interest in the team to his wife - - which Ralph has publicly said he will not do. He could always change his mind about that, but I have seen no indication that his plans have changed in that regard. Have you? I live in CA which is a community property state so I guess NY is not. That makes a difference. But why would he not leave it to his wife. That's just dumb estate planning. Is he afraid that because she gets a step up in basis she can sell it for zero or little cap gains tax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I live in CA which is a community property state so I guess NY is not. That makes a difference. But why would he not leave it to his wife. That's just dumb estate planning. Is he afraid that because she gets a step up in basis she can sell it for zero or little cap gains tax? Just a little, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynchMob23 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I live in CA which is a community property state so I guess NY is not. That makes a difference. But why would he not leave it to his wife. That's just dumb estate planning. Is he afraid that because she gets a step up in basis she can sell it for zero or little cap gains tax? The big hangup on that front is his wife and kids don't want to run the team, but don't want to be taxed twice from the sale of the team as well as the estate tax. So, really Ralph is hanging on to keep the Bills quite literally. Maybe she has a change of mind, but if that's been the case for the last 10 - 15 years I doubt she's change her mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 The big hangup on that front is his wife and kids don't want to run the team, but don't want to be taxed twice from the sale of the team as well as the estate tax. So, really Ralph is hanging on to keep the Bills quite literally. Maybe she has a change of mind, but if that's been the case for the last 10 - 15 years I doubt she's change her mind. They don't have to "run the team". They can simply own it. They can hire professionals to run the team. The notion that her husband is running the team now is a bit silly. Certainly Mrs. Wilson couldn't do a worse job by doing nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 When Tom Golisano sold the Sabres to Pegula he sold it on the condition (put it in the sell contract) that Pegula couldn't move the team or sell the team to someone who would move it out of Buffalo. Golisano even claimed that he could have sold the team for a higher price to someone who potentially wanted to move the franchise. That doesn't mean that the league would have approved of the move. But my basic point is that the current owner has the ability to ensure that the team stays in the region after he passes. I have no problem with broadening the market. It is done by all franchises in a variety of ways. But let's not portray the situation as a one way street where the owner is being benevolent to the supplicant region. The market he is in has from the very beginning provided him with very generous public subsidies. Theres a difference between a $200 million dollar sale to one person for a sports franchise and facility, and an $800 mil to $1 billion dollar sale of just a sports franchise. Theres a larger market of people in the area that can afford to invest $200 million into a hockey franchise and arena then there is for people with the ability to invest over $800 million into just owning a team. By forcing a condition on the deal that any sale would have to keep the team in the area, that limits the potential buyers even more. But its fun thinking that we should be able to tell people with more money then us how they should spend their money, and what to do with their property/possessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Theres a difference between a $200 million dollar sale to one person for a sports franchise and facility, and an $800 mil to $1 billion dollar sale of just a sports franchise. Theres a larger market of people in the area that can afford to invest $200 million into a hockey franchise and arena then there is for people with the ability to invest over $800 million into just owning a team. By forcing a condition on the deal that any sale would have to keep the team in the area, that limits the potential buyers even more. But its fun thinking that we should be able to tell people with more money then us how they should spend their money, and what to do with their property/possessions Golisano who has local roots (Rochester) and even Pegula have expressed an interest in buying into a deal if the opportunity becomes available. Although in the NFL there has to be a primary owner that doesn't mean that a syndicate can't be assembled to adequately fund a purchase. Ralph Wilson didn't turn a $25,000 investment into a nearly billion $$$ asset on his own. He has received a lot of public money and support during his extended ownership that helped to grow his business. A half century of support from the region should be a samll factor in the equation. When it comes to $$$ RW doesn't need advocates for his cause. Even in his frail state he is alert enough to count the beans and protect his interests. Sometimes the question has to be asked: When is enough---enough? Ralph is going to do what he wants to do. So be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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