DC Tom Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Sorry, this is abuse. Argument is room 12A down the hall. "...you idiot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 "...you idiot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 somehow, and this is just a gut feeling , i dont think you understand what private property is and what justifies it. you need to read john locke again. :wallbash: I think hes going for the Elizabeth "Tonto" Warren way of thinking.. A guy...who became rich.....took the bus to his office every day. So now his wealth belongs to the bus driver too. Becuase if not for that bus driver...the rich man never could have gotten to work to become rich in the first place. Marcel...is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) I think hes going for the Elizabeth "Tonto" Warren way of thinking.. A guy...who became rich.....took the bus to his office every day. So now his wealth belongs to the bus driver too. Becuase if not for that bus driver...the rich man never could have gotten to work to become rich in the first place. Marcel...is that right? ummm no. private property doesnt extend to an infinite nature outward or inward, ie everyone, or just 1 person. thats what you are getting at. in laymans terms, leninism subsicribed to this, ie a command economy. i dont agree with that. btw, warren is not advocating this, but thats besides the point. i think most people subscribe to the idea that association in a market is a baseline. so more specifically, money and labor working together to sell a product through contractual agreement. i think this boxes in most ideas of where lines are drawn. private property in this sense means the means of life and production. it does not mean your personal house, car, glass,cell phone. this makes some logical sense in that, without lines on personal property, there would be chaos. obviously someone just can walk in your house or car. in other words, we are talking about what is earned and not what is assumed owned. ie, we need a justification for private property. so, say for example, i pay 100$ for a nice bicycle. the labor cost received reciprocation, and the initial necessary investment received reciprocation. this amount was developed through market force. ie supply/demand and a relative concern for political stability. now of course, markets are much more nuanced than that when talking about equilibrium and what constitutes value, if x is valued, should y receive less, etc. for now, to keep it simple, its just supply and demand. so basically, the person who bought the bike, paid his debt to the people creating that bike. it is now his. same for any regular purchase. here is where private property is not justified, regardless regardless of whether or not labor agrees to this. what i mean by this is, there are human wants/desire, and then there are only choices available. so for example, unskilled workers, have little demand in an economy. they are easily replacable. this is in job opportunity and wages. so, if a person is only given a few choices, and those other choices are being restricted for unjustified reasons, then you have coercion. so for example, cheap slave labor in china cannot just quit, their family would suffer greatly. another example would be after the civil war, many slaves went back to their slave owners and took horribly low wages, why? they had no other choice. this happens now to a much lesser extent. but it is pretty bad. it is almost impossible to live by yourself in minimum wage or making 10$ an hr. this is why the means of produciton is so important. it is generally the source of life, and without it, people suffer. so this obviously creates a salient question? why do people put up with such horrible conditions? because they have to. there are no better options, at least not in the near term. ( you just cant quit your job, especially with a family or other relevant circumstance. thats a dangerous risk.) this is much more salient with unskilled workers. the other choice being restricted for unjustified reasons, or arbitrary reasons of power, is no democratic say in your labor in x corporation. never mind surplus value, never mind alienation, never mind any of that stuff. what is truly troubling is initial investment or another person can control or tell another person what to do with their body, when their body is just as much if not more of a contribution to production than finite capital. this is highly totalitarian in that many and all at the top level, we have managerial positions that are totally unecessary and are only stuctures of unjustified power. what a person can do on their own does not need to be imposed. obviously some positions hold higher levels of competency in different skill areas. e.g. a chemist will not tell a welder what to do. in other words, you need a rational reason to hold power here, 1- consent, 2- an expertise or general aptitude someone needs. simply telling someone im the boss and do what i say is not a reason. thats autocratic by definition. and here is the irony, the elizabeth warren example is saying that its wrong for property to extend outward forever, (ie the bus driver example). yet, this is exactly what capitalism does/wants/justifies. ie-walmart. my other problems are through exploitation. ie forced extraction of surplus value. so for example, say i make 10 bikes at walmart during the 8hr workday. at 10$ an hr. and each bike is sold for 100$. my wages are 80$ for that day, but my work is worth 1000$. this means each day, 920$ is extracted from me. and i have no say over this wealth generation. this becomes incredibly exploitative as profits could increase dramatically over a year, and now the bikes are selling for 150$, yet my hard work, and peoples desire for my work is never rewarded. this doesnt even account for slight inflation. so in many circumstances my wages could be going down, yet the value of my work goes up and up and up. in fact, it grown, into another walmart selling bikes. in reality, both parites are contributing capital, yet only one gets to tell the other what to do with their very mind and body. this has nothing to with markets, im for markets. this has to do with structural power. fire away- btw, none of this brings up the point that most credit or loans are made up out of thin air, and their only reason for existence is deposits from poor people. ie the fractional reserve system. so i work really hard at walmart as do other people, and their millions in deposits which is already exploited at walmart, is loaned out, sometimes a 100-1. that means for every 1 real dollar earned, 100 is given for loans. so say 100 walmart employees have collectively 100,000 in the bank. ( hypothetical). that turns into a loan for 10 million for say walmart! now they start another business, say a bar in south beach. its a systematic structure that is a free lunch for the capitalist. the capitalist is taking surplus value, and then hes also taking the rest of their money and creating more surplus value of extraction. in other words, poor people are supporting the rich, its a pyramid scheme. this is why when people say the top 1% pay 45-50% of the taxes is a joke. most, if not all that money came from poor people working. and then those taxes go to protect big business and capital, not workers. we have market discipline for workers, and state protection of capital. few pieces of bread are given out in order to keep people distracted and not hungry. ok- now fire away Edited May 22, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 so for example, say i make 10 bikes at walmart during the 8hr workday. at 10$ an hr. and each bike is sold for 100$. my wages are 80$ for that day, but my work is worth 1000$. this means each day, 920$ is extracted from me. and i have no say over this wealth generation. this becomes incredibly exploitative as profits could increase dramatically over a year, and now the bikes are selling for 150$, yet my hard work, and peoples desire for my work is never rewarded. this doesnt even account for slight inflation. so in many circumstances my wages could be going down, yet the value of my work goes up and up and up. in fact, it grown, into another walmart selling bikes. in reality, both parites are contributing capital, yet only one gets to tell the other what to do with their very mind and body. this has nothing to with markets, im for markets. this has to do with structural power. fire away- In a world where retailers make their own products, there are no fixed costs, inventory obsolescence, macro risk, selling costs, and material costs you're still wildly incorrect. What is the value of your work when the firm earns no profits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 my other problems are through exploitation. ie forced extraction of surplus value. so for example, say i make 10 bikes at walmart during the 8hr workday. at 10$ an hr. and each bike is sold for 100$. my wages are 80$ for that day, but my work is worth 1000$. this means each day, 920$ is extracted from me. and i have no say over this wealth generation. this becomes incredibly exploitative as profits could increase dramatically over a year, and now the bikes are selling for 150$, yet my hard work, and peoples desire for my work is never rewarded. this doesnt even account for slight inflation. so in many circumstances my wages could be going down, yet the value of my work goes up and up and up. in fact, it grown, into another walmart selling bikes. in reality, both parites are contributing capital, yet only one gets to tell the other what to do with their very mind and body. this has nothing to with markets, im for markets. this has to do with structural power. fire away- You really are an idiot. Seriously, there is no way in helping you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) In a world where retailers make their own products, there are no fixed costs, inventory obsolescence, macro risk, selling costs, and material costs you're still wildly incorrect. What is the value of your work when the firm earns no profits? the firm can still have profits. i never said that. i told you i believe in a market. obviously a business has to survive. duh... i said those leftover profits after overhead and new investment should be voted on democratically. they obviously all contributed, they should all have a say. You really are an idiot. Seriously, there is no way in helping you. intelligent, and very cogent.... :wallbash: :wallbash: Edited May 22, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 so for example, say i make 10 bikes at walmart during the 8hr workday. at 10$ an hr. and each bike is sold for 100$. my wages are 80$ for that day, but my work is worth 1000$. this means each day, 920$ is extracted from me. and i have no say over this wealth generation. this becomes incredibly exploitative as profits could increase dramatically over a year, and now the bikes are selling for 150$, yet my hard work, and peoples desire for my work is never rewarded. this doesnt even account for slight inflation. so in many circumstances my wages could be going down, yet the value of my work goes up and up and up. in fact, it grown, into another walmart selling bikes. Um, dude, you left out a few steps that are involved in the making of the bike that are part of that $100 price of the bikes. You're totally lost here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) Um, dude, you left out a few steps that are involved in the making of the bike that are part of that $100 price of the bikes. You're totally lost here. yes, labor from other exploited corporations. ie the welder, admin, etc. and this is what determines in a market what that bike is sold for. from the start, a company will know it cost x to create the bike, ie to buy the materials, and pay labor. if x is more than what the bike is sold for, than they obviously dont make profits and they go out of busines. e.g. the show pawn stars. they buy something knowing they need to sell it for more than what it cost to aquire that item. Edited May 22, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 the firm can still have profits. i never said that. i told you i believe in a market. obviously a business has to survive. duh... i said those leftover profits after overhead and new investment should be voted on democratically. they obviously all contributed, they should all have a say. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 yes, labor from other exploited corporations. ie the welder, admin, etc. and this is what determines in a market what that bike is sold for. from the start, a company will know it cost x to create the bike, ie to buy the materials, and pay labor. if x is more than what the bike is sold for, than they obviously dont make profits and they go out of busines. So there is no part in the chain of manufacturing that is not part of exploitation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Why? Haven't you been paying attention to the dems and our President FAIRNESS ! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Why? because if you dont own your body/mind/work, well, then you own nothing. john locke points this out as a vital part of why autonomy over your own labor is so important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 because if you dont own your body/mind/work, well, then you own nothing. john locke points this out as a vital part of why autonomy over your own labor is so important. You are: 1. Funny as hell 2. Insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 So there is no part in the chain of manufacturing that is not part of exploitation? i dont understand your question. what do you mean by chain of manufacturing? like the whole company? or companies that work toghether? You are: 1. Funny as hell 2. Insane. so i should have no say over my labor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) yes, labor from other exploited corporations. ie the welder, admin, etc. and this is what determines in a market what that bike is sold for. from the start, a company will know it cost x to create the bike, ie to buy the materials, and pay labor. if x is more than what the bike is sold for, than they obviously dont make profits and they go out of busines. Oh, I get it. If this company can also predict sales and economies of scale and only produces the number of units that will be sold and can predict commodity costs and macro trends and foreign exchange and therefore assumes no risk then pricing is just simple exploitation of labor. This company can predict all economic factors in perpetuity, and they make cheap bikes. Edited May 22, 2012 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 i dont understand your question. what do you mean by chain of manufacturing? like the whole company? or companies that work toghether? so i should have no say over my labor? And what say over your labor would you like to have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) And this company can also predict sales and economies of scale and only produces the number of units that will be sold and can predict commodity costs and macro trends and foreign exchange and therefore assumes no risk then pricing is just simple exploitation of labor. This company can predict all economic factors in perpetuity, and they make cheap bikes. of course it changes man. its not set in stone. im simply saying the left over take home should be voted on democratically. And what say over your labor would you like to have? in laymans terms. if its just me cutting my grass, just me. in a collaborative process, like a business, it should be democratic. Edited May 22, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 of course it changes man. its not set in stone. im simply saying the left over take home should be voted on democratically. in laymans terms. if its just me cutting my grass, just me. in a collaborative process, like a business, it should be democratic. Have you ever hired/managed anyone before? What exactly do you do for a living or are you still in school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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