Why won't Ralph sell the team?

[LabattBlue]

He doesn't sell the team because he is still making money, you can't lose money being an owner in the NFL and that is all Ralph has ever given a crap about.

^^^ This.

[Wilson's Ears]

it's mine, mine, mine... and you can't have it...!!! and i want to make as much money as i can for my family before i finally die...!!!

[poo]

Yeah, it's taxes. If he sells now, he has to pay a huge capital gains tax on $700 million (or whatever sales price is) minus a $25,000 basis. Then when he dies, his estate will pay an estate tax. If he holds the team until his death, he avoids the capital gains tax. If he leaves the team to his wife, the estate tax can be pushed into the future and the team could easily stay in Buffalo another 20 years but apparently that is not his intent.

 

Isn't this just a tax washout though? While Ralph would have to pay large taxes on a capital gain from selling the team so would his heirs when they sell the team. There is no advantage to be gained from this reasoning other than passing on the debt to his heirs. This seems implausible as his heirs will receive the same amount either way. This leads me to believe that is related to the prestige of the position in some way. Maybe that of being a hall of fame NFL owner or having a region feel devastated after a loss and confident in victory. Whatever is correct, Ralph Wilson does not keep the team to avoid tax penalties to his children from the estate and gains tax.

 

 

Book report stylee. Deal with it.

Edited November 22, 2011 by poo

[KD in CA]

Isn't this just a tax washout though? While Ralph would have to pay large taxes on a capital gain from selling the team so would his heirs when they sell the team. There is no advantage to be gained from this reasoning other than passing on the debt to his heirs. This seems implausible as his heirs will receive the same amount either way. This leads me to believe that is related to the prestige of the position in some way. Maybe that of being a hall of fame NFL owner or having a region feel devastated after a loss and confident in victory. Whatever is correct, Ralph Wilson does not keep the team to avoid tax penalties to his children from the estate and gains tax.

 

 

Book report stylee. Deal with it.

 

Does "book report stylee" mean "grossly uninformed and completely wrong"?

[Dopey]

ralph has a big ego.would you want to sell the team and then hear all the rumours of how much of a ass you were.

after ralph is gone you will hear all the stories on how he cut corners to save a little more money.

So what if he saves money, it's his business to run. Rumors of him being an ass?!?!? Really?!?!? You take this stuff too personal. Get a life!!!

 

it's mine, mine, mine... and you can't have it...!!! and i want to make as much money as i can for my family before i finally die...!!!

Hey Yousuck,

Yes, it's his, his, his and you're right, you can't have it...!!! And yes he wants to make as much as he can before he dies!! Don't like it? Get a life. You guys are clowns if you get mad at Ralph for running his business the way he wants.Sounds like the guy is making a ton of cash(thats the goal of any company). Free enterprise, you can always root for aonther team.

 

I'm pretty sure he won't sell the team just to piss you off. Actually, I'm convinced of it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[weehawk]

Just curious. Has anyone seen anything that points to Toronto, Ontario, or the Canadian Federal govt providing the money for this lavish new facility?

 

I have no doubt that the NFL will not move into Rogers Center with the intent of staying there long-term.

 

http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2010/02/05/nfl-commish-toronto-has-stadium-issue/

 

A new stadium in Toronto would easily pass the $1 billion mark and could surpass the cost of Cowboys Stadium. There is NO WAY that such a facility would be built solely with private money. It would require massive amounts of public money to get done. I think it's safe to say that there is a very vocal and large-numbered group of folks in Canada that absolutely refuses to provide public dollars to support private sports businesses. This is no slam-dunk.

 

Even if they get a $350 million loan from the NFL, they have a long way to go and I just dont see Ontario signing up for a $500 million+ tax bill for the NFL. I dont think TO is the front-runner that many think. They have some big hurdles to overcome and the world's economy is not about to improve any time soon. When RW does pass on, he NFL will have a hard time finding a buyer that can buy the team for $800 million AND get a new stadium financed somewhere with nothing but public tax dollars. If the Bills are going anywhere, it's LA. They are way ahead of TO in the stadium dept. They just need a team to buy and so far SD, MIN, and OAK all say they are not selling. I suppose JAX is the only other possibility to go to LA.

 

 

 

 

Him and his family make a lot of money every year just by holding onto the team. It is a goose that continues to lay golden eggs.

 

I do not think they have a chance for success as long as he owns the team.

 

However, I do not have much hope they will stay in Buffalo post-Wilson. The NFL as a whole would have to be in Buffalo's corner and help administer a local purchase. The NFL has no plans to do that IMO and if anything, they would rather orchestrate a purchase to move the team to Toronto or another place who would promise a lavish new facility.

[Mr. WEO]

So what if he saves money, it's his business to run. Rumors of him being an ass?!?!? Really?!?!? You take this stuff too personal. Get a life!!!

 

 

Hey Yousuck,

Yes, it's his, his, his and you're right, you can't have it...!!! And yes he wants to make as much as he can before he dies!! Don't like it? Get a life. You guys are clowns if you get mad at Ralph for running his business the way he wants.Sounds like the guy is making a ton of cash(thats the goal of any company). Free enterprise, you can always root for aonther team.

 

 

So we are "clowns" fpr pointing out that the owner shows no aptitude for making the Bills consistently competitive? That his admitted mismanagement reveals a lack of concern for the fans of his "business"'s product? And that if his prioritizing profits over results is not (perfectly, right?) OK with anyone, they should find a new team root for??

 

Wow--that IS Dopey!

 

Look, Ralph makes tons of money with no concern for the quality of his product for 2 reasons. One is a totally devoted fan base. Two is a massive subsidy from the NFL. If he wasn't getting 120 mil+ annually (for nothing) from the NFL TV contracts for cranking out this sausage, he would have sold a long time ago.

[K-9]

So we are "clowns" fpr pointing out that the owner shows no aptitude for making the Bills consistently competitive? That his admitted mismanagement reveals a lack of concern for the fans of his "business"'s product? And that if his prioritizing profits over results is not (perfectly, right?) OK with anyone, they should find a new team root for??

 

Wow--that IS Dopey!

 

Look, Ralph makes tons of money with no concern for the quality of his product for 2 reasons. One is a totally devoted fan base. Two is a massive subsidy from the NFL. If he wasn't getting 120 mil+ annually (for nothing) from the NFL TV contracts for cranking out this sausage, he would have sold a long time ago.

 

Sorry, WEO. But no matter how you like to couch the subject about Ralph and this "welfare" you insists he gets, the Buffalo Bills' share of broadcast revenue is not a "subsidy". Not even close. And if you think that Ralph or any of the other 31 owners gets that broadcast revenue for "nothing" then you need to revisit Business 101.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited November 22, 2011 by K-9

[poo]

Does "book report stylee" mean "grossly uninformed and completely wrong"?

 

I guess it does. Really I was hoping to engage a conversation about the topic but the boards are the domain of jerkaholics. I thought it was a logical expansion of how the tax situation would work. Please enlighten me as to how I am grossly misinformed. Are you 12? Do you seriously hit the bills boards just to put people down? Congratulations, you are a jerk on the interweb.

[Bills(70)]

Interesting question, but really a non-subject.

 

He started the Bills, he has the right to own it until his death.

Buffalo fans need to realize it was never about the "fans". It's always been about the business.

 

The team is going to get relocated anyways once Ralph is gone, so why worry about his reasoning for hanging on to the team.

Enjoy the team, win or loose, while they are here.

[Mr. WEO]

Sorry, WEO. But no matter how you like to couch the subject about Ralph and this "welfare" you insists he gets, the Buffalo Bills' share of broadcast revenue is not a "subsidy". Not even close. And if you think that Ralph or any of the other 31 owners gets that broadcast revenue for "nothing" then you need to revisit Business 101.

 

GO BILLS!!!

The TV money is a function of the popularity of the league. All 32 teams do not contribute to the popularity of the league equally. The Bills are locally popular and have pockets of fans in other locales, but they are rarely on national TV and mcuh of the country looks uopn their brief recent prominence as an abberation. Nationally, no one loves them or hates them. You're not going to see many fans who grew up in other NFL cities sporting Bills merchandise.

 

"Business 101" would show you that, based on his team's national interest/impact, Ralph draws disproprtionally from the collective trough that is TV revenue. You cannot make a cogent argument otherwise.

[Doc]

The TV money is a function of the popularity of the league. All 32 teams do not contribute to the popularity of the league equally. The Bills are locally popular and have pockets of fans in other locales, but they are rarely on national TV and mcuh of the country looks uopn their brief recent prominence as an abberation. Nationally, no one loves them or hates them. You're not going to see many fans who grew up in other NFL cities sporting Bills merchandise.

 

"Business 101" would show you that, based on his team's national interest/impact, Ralph draws disproprtionally from the collective trough that is TV revenue. You cannot make a cogent argument otherwise.

Doesn't matter. The league collectively agreed to split TV revenue, and this was spear-headed by Wellington Mara, who had the largest market, yet still knew what was best for the league. Suffice it to say that there are no more Wellington Maras in the league anymore. And it would take a 2/3 majority to change revenue sharing, which means it ain't happening. Move along from this crusade, and be glad it's there for the next owner, who most think will be some sort of white knight who will not only keep the team in Buffalo, but also produce multiple championships.

 

As for selling the team, why doesn't Dan Snyder sell his team?

[K-9]

The TV money is a function of the popularity of the league. All 32 teams do not contribute to the popularity of the league equally. The Bills are locally popular and have pockets of fans in other locales, but they are rarely on national TV and mcuh of the country looks uopn their brief recent prominence as an abberation. Nationally, no one loves them or hates them. You're not going to see many fans who grew up in other NFL cities sporting Bills merchandise.

 

"Business 101" would show you that, based on his team's national interest/impact, Ralph draws disproprtionally from the collective trough that is TV revenue. You cannot make a cogent argument otherwise.

 

Give it a rest. Like the Bills haven't been a part of the NFL brand. Like the Bills weren't mainstays on national TV during their SB years. Like the original AFL teams had NOTHING to do with the growth and popularity of the league. So, it's all about the "nationality" of a team? Gee, what about when the Packers, Patriots, Jets, etc, etc, went through their years of total suckitude?

 

As is far too often the case, you once again miss the point while stretching very hard to make one. Cogent argument. That's a good one.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Dopey]

So we are "clowns" fpr pointing out that the owner shows no aptitude for making the Bills consistently competitive? That his admitted mismanagement reveals a lack of concern for the fans of his "business"'s product? And that if his prioritizing profits over results is not (perfectly, right?) OK with anyone, they should find a new team root for??

 

Wow--that IS Dopey!

 

Look, Ralph makes tons of money with no concern for the quality of his product for 2 reasons. One is a totally devoted fan base. Two is a massive subsidy from the NFL. If he wasn't getting 120 mil+ annually (for nothing) from the NFL TV contracts for cranking out this sausage, he would have sold a long time ago.

NO, I said you are clowns if you get mad at Ralph for running HIS business the way he wants(which is to be profitable).Like you said he would have sold a long time ago if not profitable. My point was emotions are getting in the way of why you think he owns the Bills. He owns them to make money, as does EVERY other owner in the NFL. He could moved and not made as much money unless the stadium was subsidised, but why do that. Without Ralph we don't have the Bills to B word about.As for finding a new team to root for, that's gonna be hard since they are all in it for the money. You would be bitching about the same thing, just a different owner(s).

 

 

As for Ralph and making tons of money:

The thing that gets me is that some CLOWNS act like they know him personally and they KNOW for a fact that he doesn't care!!! Not true!! Maybe I've been around long enough to know he cares(IMO). Those SB teams we had weren't cheap, neither was the team around 2000. The main point I was trying to make is some people get too personal with the Bills. The origional post asks why Ralph won't sell the team. Ralph is one of the founding Fathers of the AFL NFL merger. If memory serves, Ralph lent a team money to stay afloat before the merger(can't remember which team, Raiders?). Ralph started the Bills from the ground up. It's his team/business and you have the nerve to ask him to sell. He could have moved or sold the team, but this team is profitable because he owns the Bills outright(no big interest payments like a team would pay if they bought us). Sounds like a great businessman to me. And you are mad about that?!?

[K-9]

... If memory serves, Ralph lent a team money to stay afloat before the merger(can't remember which team, Raiders?). ..

 

Actually, RW helped bail out a couple teams. One of them was the Raiders who would have folded otherwise. He also loaned Billy Sullivan money to help out Mr. WEO's beloved Patriots. Ironic, I know.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Doc]

NO, I said you are clowns if you get mad at Ralph for running HIS business the way he wants(which is to be profitable).Like you said he would have sold a long time ago if not profitable. My point was emotions are getting in the way of why you think he owns the Bills. He owns them to make money, as does EVERY other owner in the NFL. He could moved and not made as much money unless the stadium was subsidised, but why do that. Without Ralph we don't have the Bills to B word about.As for finding a new team to root for, that's gonna be hard since they are all in it for the money. You would be bitching about the same thing, just a different owner(s).

 

 

As for Ralph and making tons of money:

The thing that gets me is that some CLOWNS act like they know him personally and they KNOW for a fact that he doesn't care!!! Not true!! Maybe I've been around long enough to know he cares(IMO). Those SB teams we had weren't cheap, neither was the team around 2000. The main point I was trying to make is some people get too personal with the Bills. The origional post asks why Ralph won't sell the team. Ralph is one of the founding Fathers of the AFL NFL merger. If memory serves, Ralph lent a team money to stay afloat before the merger(can't remember which team, Raiders?). Ralph started the Bills from the ground up. It's his team/business and you have the nerve to ask him to sell. He could have moved or sold the team, but this team is profitable because he owns the Bills outright(no big interest payments like a team would pay if they bought us). Sounds like a great businessman to me. And you are mad about that?!?

He could have moved to any expansion location (except for Jax) over the past 20 years and made more money than in Buffalo, since he had no debt on the team, and most every other place built stadiums for their new NFL team (and any money the owner kicked-in was more than offset by PSL's, ticket, luxury box, and naming rights revenue).

[Dopey]

He could have moved to any expansion location (except for Jax) over the past 20 years and made more money than in Buffalo, since he had no debt on the team, and most every other place built stadiums for their new NFL team (and any money the owner kicked-in was more than offset by PSL's, ticket, luxury box, and naming rights revenue).

Sounds like you are saying what I did, just worded differently. So, I'm thankful they are still in Buff. Great or not.

[All_Pro_Bills]

Just curious. Has anyone seen anything that points to Toronto, Ontario, or the Canadian Federal govt providing the money for this lavish new facility?

 

I have no doubt that the NFL will not move into Rogers Center with the intent of staying there long-term.

 

http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2010/02/05/nfl-commish-toronto-has-stadium-issue/

 

A new stadium in Toronto would easily pass the $1 billion mark and could surpass the cost of Cowboys Stadium. There is NO WAY that such a facility would be built solely with private money. It would require massive amounts of public money to get done. I think it's safe to say that there is a very vocal and large-numbered group of folks in Canada that absolutely refuses to provide public dollars to support private sports businesses. This is no slam-dunk.

 

Even if they get a $350 million loan from the NFL, they have a long way to go and I just dont see Ontario signing up for a $500 million+ tax bill for the NFL. I dont think TO is the front-runner that many think. They have some big hurdles to overcome and the world's economy is not about to improve any time soon. When RW does pass on, he NFL will have a hard time finding a buyer that can buy the team for $800 million AND get a new stadium financed somewhere with nothing but public tax dollars. If the Bills are going anywhere, it's LA. They are way ahead of TO in the stadium dept. They just need a team to buy and so far SD, MIN, and OAK all say they are not selling. I suppose JAX is the only other possibility to go to LA.

No state or local government is going to provide tax money for a stadium. They're all broke and can't even fund their own obligiations, like pensions and health insurance or putting enough police on the streets. Floating a 500 million bond issue to build a stadium for a private enterprise (an NFL team) is political suicide and has close to zero possiblity of passing. The days of public funded sports facilities is pretty much over.

 

There will be a lot of resistance in putting an NFL franchise in Toronto, especially from the CFL and its political assoications.

 

LA might be the destination but they've shown it already that the city cannot or has no interest in supporting an NFL team. It might be the countries 2nd largest 'media market' but so what? With large Asian and Latino populations that don't place football as a sport of interest there's probably more hardcore football fans in WNY than there are in the LA Metro area. My guess is the Chargers take the trip a few clicks up north which makes their local SD fans take a decent hike north but keeps the territory as it is now.

 

And if Ralph wants to run the Bills as a business enterprise focused on maximizing profit without concern for putting a quality and winning product on the field I have no issue with that as long as they are not deceitful in pretending to the fan base that ownership actually puts winning as a priority.

[Dopey]

Interesting question, but really a non-subject.

 

He started the Bills, he has the right to own it until his death.

Buffalo fans need to realize it was never about the "fans". It's always been about the business.

 

 

The team is going to get relocated anyways once Ralph is gone, so why worry about his reasoning for hanging on to the team.

Enjoy the team, win or loose, while they are here.

I really think Jim Kelly has a group ready to buy once Ralph passes. Once the team is bought, expect ticket prices to go up. They have to pay a huge tax/interest bill on the loan(or portion of a loan)to purchase the team. that is the advantage Ralph has that the new owner doesn't. Ralph can keep ticket prices down because he has no debt/interest payment on this team.

[GG]

He could have moved to any expansion location (except for Jax) over the past 20 years and made more money than in Buffalo, since he had no debt on the team, and most every other place built stadiums for their new NFL team (and any money the owner kicked-in was more than offset by PSL's, ticket, luxury box, and naming rights revenue).

 

I think this point has been rehashed a few thousand times. Wilson could have made a boat load of money by selling the team. But he would not make more money in another market by moving the team. Buffalo is the perfect place for him because he makes a consistent $30 million profit by delivering a consistently mediocre product and still gets sainted by the fan base.