apuszczalowski Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 of course i'm correct. i essentially wrote the same story ... and was in the conference room with Jim Fink (the Biz Journal story author) interviewing Russ. and yet, i guess that's not enough for at least one poster (not you Ray) for questioning where i got this information, as if i made it up. ... i mean, really. Fact: The Bills have a difficult time selling out home games after Thanksgiving. Fact: They've had more post-Thanksgiving sellouts in the past 10 years than in the 1990s. Fact: They have about 57,000 seats left for their final three home games. Add it up and it's clear: Bills fans hardly seem to be the hearty sort, they'd prefer to stay in the comfort of their own home rather than venture out to the stadium when the weather turns nasty whether the team they root for is winning or losing, hosting a playoff game or Cleveland. jw Yet they all would cry and complain if Buffalo built a dome for the Bills to play in because "It takes away the Home field advantage for teams having to come up and play in Buffalos conditions. PTR is correct in this, fans have hundreds of excuses they like to throw out for not attending games, all while saying just how great and supportive fans they are of this team. the post he made about how many tickets you buy is not him trying to be hollier then though, he was making a point that he can make it in for a few games a year traveling a long distance, and some posters here living in the area complaining that have a chance to support this team more are doing less Like the NFL slogan said, "You want the NFL, Go to the NFL". A pro Football team in your area is a privelege, not a right. If you don't buy tickets and go to games, the team will go somewhere that will buy tickets and go to games. or you can keep living in the fantasy world that some white knight will come riding into Buffalo and keep the team in Orchard Park forever bring year after year of championship teams to Buffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yet they all would cry and complain if Buffalo built a dome for the Bills to play in because "It takes away the Home field advantage for teams having to come up and play in Buffalos conditions. PTR is correct in this, fans have hundreds of excuses they like to throw out for not attending games, all while saying just how great and supportive fans they are of this team. the post he made about how many tickets you buy is not him trying to be hollier then though, he was making a point that he can make it in for a few games a year traveling a long distance, and some posters here living in the area complaining that have a chance to support this team more are doing less Like the NFL slogan said, "You want the NFL, Go to the NFL". A pro Football team in your area is a privelege, not a right. If you don't buy tickets and go to games, the team will go somewhere that will buy tickets and go to games. or you can keep living in the fantasy world that some white knight will come riding into Buffalo and keep the team in Orchard Park forever bring year after year of championship teams to Buffalo Is your last name Wilson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Is your last name Wilson? Far from it But I must have forgot, Ralph is Cheap and is the reason why fans stay away! Roger Goodell and the NFL would never let the Bills move out of Buffalo, they are passionate and may not sell out the stadium, but they will flood message boards to complain that its because the Owner is cheap and won't put a good product on the field, or its a holiday, or its too cold, or they are already in the playoffs, or out of the playoffs, or the economy is bad, or its a bad team they are playing against, or they moved a game to Toronto, or they are ruining the tailgating experience by not letting them park where they want or take up multiple spots, or the Uniforms suck, or They got a flat tire on the way to the stadium........... Edited November 10, 2011 by apuszczalowski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Far from it But I must have forgot, Ralph is Cheap and is the reason why fans stay away! Roger Goodell and the NFL would never let the Bills move out of Buffalo, they are passionate and may not sell out the stadium, but they will flood message boards to complain that its because the Owner is cheap and won't put a good product on the field, or its a holiday, or its too cold, or they are already in the playoffs, or out of the playoffs, or the economy is bad, or its a bad team they are playing against, or they moved a game to Toronto, or they are ruining the tailgating experience by not letting them park where they want or take up multiple spots, or the Uniforms suck, or They got a flat tire on the way to the stadium........... Tell us how you really feel? Were you skipped over the day they passed out the humor cards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglukes Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Are you too dumb to realize promo is saying you are an undeserving fan, too? A need to be miserable fan? WTF does that mean? The reason I am in this thread is because I detest Promo calling out everyone on this board for being undeserving fans because we don't support the bills to his satisfaction. Maybe you are allright with that. I'm not. But you just go ahead rationalizing how we are really in first place even though we are in third. Rationalizing? Stating the facts aren't rationalizing. I'm sorry is stating that we beat New England rationalizing. Look at the friggin standings and tie breakers. We have only played 2 division games since we've yet to get the obligatory "beat up on Miami" game, the other 2 teams we're tied with have gotten so we have fewer division wins. If you want to keep your fingers in your ears and eyes shut, and pretend that this team is still awful so be it. And the "need to be miserable fans", you know the ones who need to find something wrong with everything, like the OP. Forget that this team is tied for first, has been competetive in all but one game, and far surpassed everyone's expectations to this point, there is always something to complain about. And I'm not saying blind allegience, but people are seriously getting upset over a ticket discount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 i did a scientific survey.... i asked my honey why she doesn't want to go to the december games with me.... she said because it's too friggin cold.... so there ya have it...blame the women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I'd be interested to know whether the non-sellouts in December in the 90s was due to the fact that the Bills had already clinched playoff spots. So Bills fans always show up...except when the team is losing, or its too cold, or they are winning but had a bad loss, or when they clinch a playoff spot. PTR It does make sense that people are less willing to go out in the cold for 4+ hours when the game is less meaningful or even meaningless (when the team is hopeless or when the team has clinched). I can't say why people wouldn't buy tickets when the games actually mean something, and they very well may this year. I'll bet that 2 of those 3 games sell out quickly if the Bills get to 7-3; I don't have a lot of hope for the Christmas Eve game. Personally, I've been to the stadium in the cold a couple of times. It's miserable. Maybe that makes some think I'm not a "real fan" or whatever. I'd rather spend my sports dollars downtown because I like hockey much better than I like football, but even the Winter Classic was too much time in the cold. For those jumping on PTR's case, remember that the guy lives in New Hampshire and still has season tickets. I think he's pretty much beyond reproach on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 the bills are tied for first atop the AFC East as the tiebreakers haven't been determined. it would be different had the Bills lost twice to the Jets or defeated the Pats twice. the teams, otherwise, are tied. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Probably because sales slowed down. Maybe they expected fans to actually buy tickets to see their first-place team. Jokes on them. PTR Whats up dude? You seem to be going roid rage on your keyboard here today. I'll be in my seats as I have been since becoming a season ticket holder. I understand why some wont go and it can be as simple as what jw says that we dont do games after Thanksgiving very well historically. Go figure. For some sitting on an aluminum bench in December in OP aint too great a day. One of them is Christmas Eve, and a lot of people cant understand why if we have to give a game to Toronto, why is it not always in December since the pansies up there wont open the roof under any circumstance in football weather. To each their own. I will appreciate being at these games even more if they are all blacked out. Well except maybe for the Christmas eve game as that simply blows and will be the root of many domestics. Sadly. Not for me though but I may have to bring the wife for that one because the other regulars have kids. Sadly. Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 It does make sense that people are less willing to go out in the cold for 4+ hours when the game is less meaningful or even meaningless (when the team is hopeless or when the team has clinched). I can't say why people wouldn't buy tickets when the games actually mean something, and they very well may this year. I'll bet that 2 of those 3 games sell out quickly if the Bills get to 7-3; I don't have a lot of hope for the Christmas Eve game. Personally, I've been to the stadium in the cold a couple of times. It's miserable. Maybe that makes some think I'm not a "real fan" or whatever. I'd rather spend my sports dollars downtown because I like hockey much better than I like football, but even the Winter Classic was too much time in the cold. For those jumping on PTR's case, remember that the guy lives in New Hampshire and still has season tickets. I think he's pretty much beyond reproach on this one. I was at a Monday night game a few years ago against the Browns in the middle of a !@#$ing blizzard (I had seasons then) and every single thing about that night sucked. The game sucked, the weather !@#$ing sucked, driving there sucked, driving home sucked. It all sucked. There is no way I'm purchasing tickets in advance for any open air event in Buffalo NY, including Bills games, ever again. If I want to go to an outdoor event then I will wait and get tickets last minute. I will never go through that again to watch any game. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Sure thing. A very WNY attitude. You pay, I'll complain. PTR You've become a parody of yourself. You expect every man, woman, and child to foot the bill on a stadium so you have someplace to park your sorry ass on a Sunday afternoon. Exactly what I'm complaining about you never mention. Maybe its the fact that one of the highest taxed areas in the country, with an economy that has been in a recession for decades, can ill afford dumping 100 million into an antiquated stadium. And of course we'll just ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of people in WNY who you expect to help subsidize your entertainment will never have the opportunity to actually set foot in that stadium. But I suppose that doesn't make them "real fans" right? You use the stadium pal, you help pay for it. There's a word for people like you: Parasite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Go ahead and flame me...I would get season tickets if we had a dome(not that I expect one to be built). Sorry, but I have no interest in sitting in games where it is pouring rain and in the 40's, or in freezing cold and/or snowstorms in December. I'll take my chances going to games in September and early October, and after that it is TV for me...unless I get an invite to a suite or indoor club area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Go ahead and flame me...I would get season tickets if we had a dome(not that I expect one to be built). Sorry, but I have no interest in sitting in games where it is pouring rain and in the 40's, or in freezing cold and/or snowstorms in December. I'll take my chances going to games in September and early October, and after that it is TV for me...unless I get an invite to a suite or indoor club area. Before I start, Labatt, none of this is directed at you.... Thats the funniest thing about all this, you talk to the "Fans" and none of them want to even think about the Bills playing home games in a dome (which is more liekly to be built then a new open air stadium due to it being possible for more uses throughout the year)Because snow and typical bad Buffalo weather is 'Buffalo Football weather" and our "home field advantage". But the majority of those fans will also turn around and refuse to want to get tickets to those games cause they don't like being out in the weather. As for the poster mentioning how bad things are economically in WNY and how they shouldn't be subsidizing the renovation of a stadium that they own, thats fine, but then you better not expect the team to stay there and just live with the conditions. Its not like the WNY economy (or any economy with a proffesional sports franchise located there) doesn't benefit from having a team. Its not like the area isn't getting anything in return for having a team. If the area will not show a commitment to a franchise and help fund improvements to the facilities, why should the owner show any commitment to the area? Edited November 10, 2011 by apuszczalowski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 of course i'm correct. i essentially wrote the same story ... and was in the conference room with Jim Fink (the Biz Journal story author) interviewing Russ. and yet, i guess that's not enough for at least one poster (not you Ray) for questioning where i got this information, as if i made it up. ... i mean, really. Fact: The Bills have a difficult time selling out home games after Thanksgiving. Fact: They've had more post-Thanksgiving sellouts in the past 10 years than in the 1990s. Fact: They have about 57,000 seats left for their final three home games. Add it up and it's clear: Bills fans hardly seem to be the hearty sort, they'd prefer to stay in the comfort of their own home rather than venture out to the stadium when the weather turns nasty whether the team they root for is winning or losing, hosting a playoff game or Cleveland. jw Amen John!! This is something I was stating as were others about reasons Dec games have difficulty selling out and a retractable roof dome would be nice in a thread about a new stadium possibly NF....we all realize the reality of money woes of the state/county etc... But I will be going to two of the three games this Dec and missing one because I will be working. But you cannot tell me if the weather was nice the games would not have more interest. This year the weather has been awesome for games. People have this misperception that the players and people love it when it is 20 and windy and snowy......they don't. Now that being said it is not a criticism of Buffalo people/fans. We do have great fans, there is just not as much of us around and we tolerate 30 and snowy a lot better than 95% of the country. But reality is reality and it is not fun sitting out in the cold and wind. I love outdoor games in Sept and Oct and this past week was great weather. But you have to start dragging a lot more people there once it gets freezing and you have to wear 8 layers of clothes to stay warm. Buffalo has great allegiance to the Bills and they mean more to the area/as much to the area as any other NFL team.....it just stinks here in December! That is why they liked having a game in Toronto in December b/c it has a dome and the Bills did not have to sell the game out in Buffalo/OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Before I start, Labatt, none of this is directed at you.... Thats the funniest thing about all this, you talk to the "Fans" and none of them want to even think about the Bills playing home games in a dome (which is more liekly to be built then a new open air stadium due to it being possible for more uses throughout the year)Because snow and typical bad Buffalo weather is 'Buffalo Football weather" and our "home field advantage". But the majority of those fans will also turn around and refuse to want to get tickets to those games cause they don't like being out in the weather. As for the poster mentioning how bad things are economically in WNY and how they shouldn't be subsidizing the renovation of a stadium that they own, thats fine, but then you better not expect the team to stay there and just live with the conditions. Its not like the WNY economy (or any economy with a proffesional sports franchise located there) doesn't benefit from having a team. Its not like the area isn't getting anything in return for having a team. If the area will not show a commitment to a franchise and help fund improvements to the facilities, why should the owner show any commitment to the area? The NFL has built a multi-billion dollar empire on tax dollars and gambling. Many economic studies have shown virtually no benefit to a city with a professional sports team. In fact several studies have shown it to be a drag economically on the city. http://www.uwlax.edu/faculty/anderson/micro-principles/stadiums.pdf http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv23n2/coates.pdf The reason to have a sports team is for purely entertainment reasons. Not economic ones. Edited November 10, 2011 by gumby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Cthulhu Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Tell us how you really feel? Were you skipped over the day they passed out the humor cards? You call what you do on here "humor"? It's not humorous if you're only amusing yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Every city is different and studies are onyl as good as their assumptions and using data on new sports stadiums in their methods from 1958-1993 I am not sure applies today. Now, I will absolutely give you the positive economic impact is never as good as they proclaim it to be but for a city like Buffalo there is no way you can say the Bills do not have a very large impact on the economic activity of the region. There are very few billion dollar businesses in Buffalo number one so where does Buffalo have a business where the employees are making millions of dollars and that tax revenue does go to the state county etc..... Also, all of the stte taxes, property taxes from everyone employed and living in those homes. If the Bills ever left (they won't but just if) you would see a big decrease in activity/spending etc...in the OP southtowns region itself. The community would really be no different than Rochester, Toledo, Akron etc.. Yes instead of using the money to go to Bills games, buy drinks and food for Bills games, have family friends over etc...that money would go elsewhere but keep in mind many people would go elsewhere b/c part of the vibrancy of a community is the activities and entertainment venues around and NFL football is the BIGGEST entertainment venue around today in the US. That in itself adds value monetarily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Every city is different and studies are onyl as good as their assumptions and using data on new sports stadiums in their methods from 1958-1993 I am not sure applies today. Now, I will absolutely give you the positive economic impact is never as good as they proclaim it to be but for a city like Buffalo there is no way you can say the Bills do not have a very large impact on the economic activity of the region. There are very few billion dollar businesses in Buffalo number one so where does Buffalo have a business where the employees are making millions of dollars and that tax revenue does go to the state county etc..... Also, all of the stte taxes, property taxes from everyone employed and living in those homes. If the Bills ever left (they won't but just if) you would see a big decrease in activity/spending etc...in the OP southtowns region itself. The community would really be no different than Rochester, Toledo, Akron etc.. Yes instead of using the money to go to Bills games, buy drinks and food for Bills games, have family friends over etc...that money would go elsewhere but keep in mind many people would go elsewhere b/c part of the vibrancy of a community is the activities and entertainment venues around and NFL football is the BIGGEST entertainment venue around today in the US. That in itself adds value monetarily This one is from 2010: http://thesportdigest.com/archive/article/economic-impact-sports-facilities The evidence is that whatever economic impact a team has is offset by the amount of tax subsidies flowing to the team. One such subsidy is the 3 million of "working capitol" handed over to Ralph Wilson every year. How does it feel that Wilson just donated 2.5 million to the hall of fame for its “Ralph Wilson, Jr. Pro Football Hall of Fame Research and Preservation Center”. That's money being sucked out of WNY and sent elsewhere. There is a lot to be said about the pride that is derived from being in the "big leagues" but lets be clear what we're talking about. The reason I'm even bothering with this is the people of WNY show a much greater support for this team even if they NEVER set foot in the stadium than the out of towners who show up for several Sundays a year. Many of the locals can't afford to attend a Bills game because of the bad economic situation here. Than to have some holier than thou P.O.S. point fingers as to who is a "real fan" and who isn't based on attendance, I'm sorry but that is not to be tolerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) This one is from 2010: http://thesportdigest.com/archive/article/economic-impact-sports-facilities The evidence is that whatever economic impact a team has is offset by the amount of tax subsidies flowing to the team. One such subsidy is the 3 million of "working capitol" handed over to Ralph Wilson every year. How does it feel that Wilson just donated 2.5 million to the hall of fame for its “Ralph Wilson, Jr. Pro Football Hall of Fame Research and Preservation Center”. That's money being sucked out of WNY and sent elsewhere. There is a lot to be said about the pride that is derived from being in the "big leagues" but lets be clear what we're talking about. The reason I'm even bothering with this is the people of WNY show a much greater support for this team even if they NEVER set foot in the stadium than the out of towners who show up for several Sundays a year. Many of the locals can't afford to attend a Bills game because of the bad economic situation here. Than to have some holier than thou P.O.S. point fingers as to who is a "real fan" and who isn't based on attendance, I'm sorry but that is not to be tolerated. Go ahead and make up whatever crap about me that makes you feel better, but just pointing something out here... Most taxpayers pay for stuff they don't use. My kids are grown up but I still fund schools. I've never had a crime committed upon me or a house fire but I pay for police and fire protection. People who would never set foot on a bus subsidize NFTA. I don't own a boat but Erie county runs a marina, does it not? The point is while the benefit is not direct, all these things add up to a quality of life people want. Being part of the NFL means having to maintain a proper sports facility. And while 95% of folks will never buy a Bills ticket, taxes and fees generated from having the Bills impacts everyone. While you like to sneer at me for leaving WNY and keeping my season tickets, if it weren't for ex-pats like me the Bills might only sell 20,000 season tickets. So I feel like my support is helping WNY keep the Bills. I also posted multiple times that ticket buyers ought to directly pay for a share of RWS renovations through a surcharge on tickets. I think that is only fair. I find it ironic how just two weeks ago people were up in arms over playing a home game in Toronto. Now the same people are justifying why they don't buy Bills tickets at RWS. Bitter miserable people. PTR Edited November 10, 2011 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Overall I gotta side with Promo on this one. I know he loses on style points because of his emotional and proprietary relationship with the Bills but most of what he says I agree with. And no one should take personally what is said in this thread. The discussion is really about the market, not individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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