ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/126369858.html During the shareholders meeting, Jason Wied, the team's vice president of administration, spoke of how important the franchise is to the greater Green Bay area. In Buffalo, the Bills' franchise has an economic impact on the community of $34 per person. In San Diego, it's $118 per person. But in Green Bay, he said, the economic impact of the Packers to the community equates to $1,100 per person. The Packers, Wied added, produce five times the economic impact than the Cowboys do in Dallas. I tend to be a numbers guy, but I'm clueless on this one. The referenced shareholders' meeting was two days ago. Anybody got any ideas on how the Packers VP comes up with these numbers? I suppose a small population like Green Bay has would tend to make a team's "economic impact per person" higher, but there must be more to it than that. Dallas and San Diego have much bigger populations than Buffalo, but both teams are cited as having a much greater "econmic impact per person" on their communities than the Bills do. I'm stumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Since the people of GreenBay own the team and most the shareholders must be there, they are averaged into the whole somehow? Maybe it is how much money the people of the community are putting into a team? I am stumped too, 34$, oh I know, RW is cheap, that's the answer isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearNorth Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/126369858.html I tend to be a numbers guy, but I'm clueless on this one. The referenced shareholders' meeting was two days ago. Anybody got any ideas on how the Packers VP comes up with these numbers? I suppose a small population like Green Bay has would tend to make a team's "economic impact per person" higher, but there must be more to it than that. Dallas and San Diego have much bigger populations than Buffalo, but both teams are cited as having a much greater "econmic impact per person" on their communities than the Bills do. I'm stumped. I have a bit of experience in this area. What they are essentially saying is that the Packers bring and leave (and multiply through the spending cycle) that much per capita to the Green Bay Area. This probably includes TV Money, and shared Mdse revenues. Their denominator may be too small, since Green Bay is essentially the State of Wisconsin's NFL franchise, less a few Bear fans in the southern Wisconsin bedroom communities of Chicago. If they are only using the Green bay SMSA, then the denominator is skewing the result. Ralph has a pretty sweet deal, the taxpayers are on the hook for most of his physical plant, and he doesn't live in Buffalo, so any money he takes out doesn't stay in WNY. In addition I wouldn't be surprised if Central Ontario, all the way to the Toronto Metro area is included in the denominator, which adds millions of people to our market size, yet we don't see a lot of dollar benefit from that population. Dallas has huge merchandising and corporate box rentals, and San Diego is the only So. California NFL team, so they benefit from that. These economic impact studies are all subjective, and depend a lot on how you define the market, what multipliers you select, and what you include and don't include. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I would guess it's based on a formula of how much money the team brings to the area (tickets, food, hotel rooms, etc.) divided by the population of the city. But I can't see how San Diego would be that high. Interesting, because Buffalo has a bigger stadium than both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Green Bay would not exist if the Packers did not exist. It's a tiny town. Buffalo would exist if the Bills did not exist. It's a small city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombstone56 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 AS SOMEONE WHO USED TO MANIPULATE NUMBERS,my best guess is they're using the population data the most do ,which does NOT INCLUDE the suburban areas to the north,east,or south or anywhere but within city limits ,,im not sure if its intensional or just ignorance but if they include the geographic equivalant in the numbers then the facts change dramaticly,, if you just campare the metro area of .pheonix or nyc or houston ,its easy to see why there is so much disparity,,it a typical case of jerking numbers to fit arguments,, kinda sounds like this report is based on a lobbyists fact-finder,, politicians have been doing the same thing for decades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OvrOfficiousJerk Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 $10 says they really cooked the books on that one, they probably used the whole of Canada to get that number. Talk about throwing another small market under the bus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 AS SOMEONE WHO USED TO MANIPULATE NUMBERS,my best guess is they're using the population data the most do ,which does NOT INCLUDE the suburban areas to the north,east,or south or anywhere but within city limits ,,im not sure if its intensional or just ignorance but if they include the geographic equivalant in the numbers then the facts change dramaticly,, if you just campare the metro area of .pheonix or nyc or houston ,its easy to see why there is so much disparity,,it a typical case of jerking numbers to fit arguments,, kinda sounds like this report is based on a lobbyists fact-finder,, politicians have been doing the same thing for decades Well that's nice that you believe that. Have we completely given up on using anything reasonable to back up our posts though? Would buffalos population change on a rate drastically different than green bay under those scenarios? Anyone else feel like the come here and just read "they are out to get us because that's just how it works" a lot lately? Going out on a limb (working in travel in new orleans) I'd say it likely has to do with buffalo not being a travel destination too. People make pilgrimages to see lambeau whether or not you are a packer fan. Opposing teams circle games in fun cities as the ones the will travel to and spend 4 days in hotels, restaurants, etc.... Greenbay has the unique situation of being one of those cities people will travel to (even late in the season), a team that is highly competitive so money is spent by their own fan base on merch and trips too, and having a small population to divide all that money over. Just like our FA threads- people aren't excited about our team or city, so why are we surprised that revenue isn't flowing in from outside of buffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Well that's nice that you believe that. Have we completely given up on using anything reasonable to back up our posts though? Would buffalos population change on a rate drastically different than green bay under those scenarios? Anyone else feel like the come here and just read "they are out to get us because that's just how it works" a lot lately? Going out on a limb (working in travel in new orleans) I'd say it likely has to do with buffalo not being a travel destination too. People make pilgrimages to see lambeau whether or not you are a packer fan. Opposing teams circle games in fun cities as the ones the will travel to and spend 4 days in hotels, restaurants, etc.... Greenbay has the unique situation of being one of those cities people will travel to (even late in the season), a team that is highly competitive so money is spent by their own fan base on merch and trips too, and having a small population to divide all that money over. Just like our FA threads- people aren't excited about our team or city, so why are we surprised that revenue isn't flowing in from outside of buffalo If you don't think people travel to Buffalo to see the Bills you are on crack. The fact is that ANY NFL team has big draws outside thier own home town no matter what team you are. I have helped many out of towners purchase tickets to Bills games and come here just for that. I've met people in other countries that say they have come just for Bills games. Had a friend from Australia who says the Bills are probably thier favorite team there and he moved here to Buffalo just because of the home town feel and how crazy the fans were and he wanted to be a part of that. To think anything different about any other team (except maybe Jax) you would be crazy. It's the NFL. It has a draw no matter where you are. Let's not even forget that most people will never get to go to a Packers game In thier lives even if they wanted to because you CANT get tickets for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCBoston Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 85 percent of statistics you read on the internet are made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 If you don't think people travel to Buffalo to see the Bills you are on crack. The fact is that ANY NFL team has big draws outside thier own home town no matter what team you are. I have helped many out of towners purchase tickets to Bills games and come here just for that. I've met people in other countries that say they have come just for Bills games. Had a friend from Australia who says the Bills are probably thier favorite team there and he moved here to Buffalo just because of the home town feel and how crazy the fans were and he wanted to be a part of that. To think anything different about any other team (except maybe Jax) you would be crazy. It's the NFL. It has a draw no matter where you are. Let's not even forget that most people will never get to go to a Packers game In thier lives even if they wanted to because you CANT get tickets for them. Right but what I'm saying is Joe redskin fan doesn't travel to buffalo in the same volume as a city like San Diego or in my case new Orleans. I'm also saying with a losing decade that travel has diminished even for fans. Especially in bad weather. Also that people do 1-2 day trips instead of 4. Greenbay being the exception of a cold small market football tourism destination, if we are talking outside dollars coming to the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Right but what I'm saying is Joe redskin fan doesn't travel to buffalo in the same volume as a city like San Diego or in my case new Orleans. I'm also saying with a losing decade that travel has diminished even for fans. Especially in bad weather. Also that people do 1-2 day trips instead of 4. Greenbay being the exception of a cold small market football tourism destination, if we are talking outside dollars coming to the city. I agree with what your saying about warm weather teams. And places like NO, Miami, SD but that us more to the fact that people plan vacations around Bills games and stay in those areas because they are Vacation destinations more than they are football towns. Nobody outside of NO or Saints fans goes to the city because they are a "Great Football Town" I'm not saying they do about Buffalo either. People go to those places because they just happen to be near the beaches and warm weather. I agree with what your saying on many parts, I just think the Green Bay Packers have no business being in this conversation. I don't think many more make the Pilgramage to Green Bay than people do to Minnasota or Buffalo. The fact is were cold weather teams in small markets. If you were talking about New England you probably see just any many go there as they do in NO or SD and that's because Boston is a large city where people travel to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I agree with what your saying about warm weather teams. And places like NO, Miami, SD but that us more to the fact that people plan vacations around Bills games and stay in those areas because they are Vacation destinations more than they are football towns. Nobody outside of NO or Saints fans goes to the city because they are a "Great Football Town" I'm not saying they do about Buffalo either. People go to those places because they just happen to be near the beaches and warm weather. I agree with what your saying on many parts, I just think the Green Bay Packers have no business being in this conversation. I don't think many more make the Pilgramage to Green Bay than people do to Minnasota or Buffalo. The fact is were cold weather teams in small markets. If you were talking about New England you probably see just any many go there as they do in NO or SD and that's because Boston is a large city where people travel to. Do you not remember the threads last year when we played in GB about making the trip to see lambeau? I don't remember the same threads about minny. Fans tend to have 1-2 away games that are heavily travelled. Either against a good team or in a fun city. No ones circling buff on the away schedule. A lot of people circle greenbay, San Diego, new Orleans, Dallas etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 85 percent of statistics you read on the internet are made up. </thread> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 That number is a load of horsespit. If the Bills left town, Buffalo would die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 85 percent of statistics you read on the internet are made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Keep in mind the source. Its the Packers trying to get their shareholders to value the economic impact of their team. They likely are framing the numbers in a particular way to mae themselves look better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 That number is a load of horsespit. If the Bills left town, Buffalo would die. Upon reflection, I wondered if the NFL commissioned some sort of league-wide study that they could use to try to get communities to help fund stadium construction and/or improvements. Doing a few google searches to see if I can find some horsespit study that matches the Packer VP's comments. Nothing yet, but I did find some horsespit being passed off as economic research. I did not see a date on this horsespit, but it cites a 2006 study by others, so it can't be too old. http://web.mst.edu/~davismc/winning%20proposition%20revised.pdf “It was the best of times and it was the worst of times.” This classic phrase couldbe used to describe the period of 1990 through 1993 for fans of the Buffalo Bills. The Bills performed well enough to win the AFC Championship four consecutive years, but each year the team’s season ended with a Super Bowl defeat. The purpose of this study is to determine if fans of successful, but not world champion sport teams (like the Buffalo Bills), experience economic benefits in conjunction with their team’s successes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewcity Cheesehead Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I stumbled across this thread when I was googling for something that Jason Wied said at the shareholder's meeting two days ago, and thought I could add some insight. For one thing, I am a Packer fan and I was there at the Green Bay Packers Shareholder's meeting when Jason Wied threw out the numbers you guys are talking about... I'm not a shareholder, but a good friend of mine who is, invited me to attend (each shareholder gets up to 4 tickets). The numbers he was talking about was the economic impact the team has on the community, so that would include the direct impact from tickets and merchandise as well as money spent at hotels and restaurants brought in as a result of the Packers. He said the Packers have an economic impact of $280 million (I forget the exact number, but within 10 mil), so that would mean that its divided by about 250,000 people or roughly the population of Brown County where Green Bay is located. I'm not sure what the source is for the other numbers that Wied quoted, and I don't know enough about the Bills or the other teams mentioned to comment on those numbers, but here are the main factors IMO for the high economic impact per capita in Green Bay: -They play in the league's smallest market leading to a small denominator as BearNorth mentioned. -Lambeau Field, ever since the 2003 renovation, is a year-round destination that's open 365 days a year. The Packer pro-shop has taken in the most revenue of all 32 teams (and thats not just this year). The Green Bay Packer Hall of Fame underneath the Lambeau Field Atrium has more visitors each year than the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio. So, while all NFL teams draw in out-of-towners for home games, as mrags mentioned, the Packers have a huge impact every day of the year. -They don't have a small market fanbase. They have a huge Statewide and National fanbase that rivals even the most popular franchises. Just as an example, at the shareholder's meeting Thursday, I talked to guys from Arizona, Nebraska, Massachusetts, Virginia and another from Nebraska... 3 of which came in solely for the shareholder's meeting. So they'll fill the hotels, restaurants and casino in the area year round. On gameday? .adlts=4&strf=7&search=Continue&hotel.chkout=09/09/11&type=hotel&hotel.keyword.key=green%20bay,%20wi"]If you go on orbitz and search for a hotel room in Green Bay the night of the regular season opener, it'll give you a list of 40 hotels that don't have any rooms available. In fact the closest hotel with rooms for that day is 25 miles from the stadium. -The fans support the team very well. The media covers them year-round. During the season they have a separate Packers section in the local paper. My favorite radio program "Green and Gold Today" aires year round. I also usually make it to one training camp practice a year, and almost always meet people from across the country that are visiting to see the stadium. For their training camp practices they'll typically have a couple thousand spectators every day. They have permanent stands installed at their practice field that hold 1,500 fans (which they fill). Next week, the Packers have their annual "Family Night", which is basically a glorified practice where they sell tickets for $10 each, and they consistently sell out the Stadium, because for some fans, Family Night is their only chance to see their team in Lambeau... and they televise it on local TV... for a practice. So Green Bay is crazy when it comes to their Packers and it shows in these economic numbers. Also... here's an article that I saw a while back about the impact that the lockout would have on local businesses in Green Bay. They said that Edgeworth Economics estimated a loss of $20 million per game if games were lost due to the lockout. Which would be $200 million over the course of the season (including 8 regular season and 2 preseason home games). That makes up a large portion of the $280 million economic impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) The numbers he was talking about was the economic impact the team has on the community, so that would include the direct impact from tickets and merchandise as well as money spent at hotels and restaurants brought in as a result of the Packers. He said the Packers have an economic impact of $280 million (I forget the exact number, but within 10 mil), so that would mean that its divided by about 250,000 people or roughly the population of Brown County where Green Bay is located. First, thanks for the info. Second, for comparison purposes, I found a 1996 study (15 years ago) that estimated that the Bills had a $111.5 million gross economic impact on the local community in 1996. That 1996 study was done at a time when possible renovation of Ralph Wilson Stadium was being debated, so it could be a biased position paper of sorts. On the other hand, you would expect the gross economic impact of any NFL team to have grown significantly over the last 15 years, given the increased overall popularity of the NFL during that time. I don't know if the 1996 study was the source of the Packer VP's Buffalo number - - seems unlikely because it's so old. But if it WAS the source, you would need to use a "Buffalo community" population figure of 3.28 million people to arrive at the $34/person Buffalo figure. I'm no expert on Green Bay, but it doesn't seem fair to me use 250,000 people to calculate a "Packer impact" number while using 3.28 million people to calculate a "Bills impact" number. Finally, it still seems odd to me that the Packer VP presumably had easy access to community impact numbers for OTHER NFL cities. It seems like the figures may have been in something put out by the league office, because it seems unlikely that the Packer VP would have much incentive to look up or calculate such numbers on his own initiative. Do you happen to know if that Packer VP sits on any NFL committees? It might help us figure out where the Buffalo $34 number came from. http://www.ppgbuffalo.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/sports-subsidies-issue-fact-sheet-final.pdf In 1996 the teams’ gross economic impact, reflecting total economic activity resulting from the Bills presence in the marketplace was estimated to be $111.5 million. The Bills employed 1,664 people, and total direct expenditures by fans were estimated to be $31.5 million.In February of 1996, a 25-member task force was assembled and using recent studies in comparative NFL markets and based on discussions with team officials, the Greater Buffalo Partnership Buffalo Bills Task Force concluded the franchise had a: • Gross Economic Impact of $111.5 million for 1996. • Net Economic Impact of $33.4 million for 1996. • Paid $4.2 million in state and local taxes. • Generated $1 million in ticket and parking surcharges. • Would bring an estimated one-time economic impact of $15.1 million if Ralph Wilson Stadium was renovated at an approximate cost of $60 million. Edited July 30, 2011 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts