Chris Kelsay anyone?

[DrDawkinstein]

Merriman is definitely key. We need to pray that he can somehow stay healthy and play at a high level. We have SOME young players with upside at the LB position, but I wouldn't use the word great at this point...Here is how I see our 3-4 LB set up as we stand now...

 

OLB - Merriman (cross your fingers, pray, something...) Torbor as backup?

OLB - Kelsey/Moats (uhoh) Maybe Torbor?

MLB - This is a big mess, not knowing whether we have POZ (probably not). We have Kelvin Sheppard (hasn't played a down, or even signed yet...But he already looks like our best MLB), Then the journeyman veterans Andra Davis, Akin Ayodele. They are both over 30. Ayodele simply sucks in my opinion, Davis was OK in his prime but he's 32 going on 33 now. The wild card here is Batten, he was injured in the preseason last year and was a late round pick projected at MLB. Coleman looked ok to me as well.

 

Looking at this, Sheppard was (hopefully) an improvement. But other than him, even IF Merriman can play, we still need a lot of work....At least our D-line looks better.

 

I didn't include Maybin...he simply isn't worth mentioning.

 

Edit - They also drafted Chris White...but hope he never has to start...He is a special teams guy.

 

 

Adding to my post above, I could see our MLBs looking like:

ILB Posluszny, Paul

ILB Kelvin Sheppard

ILB Davis, Andra

ILB Torbor, Reggie

ILB Chris White

 

Not sure why you say "Probably not" to Poz coming back. I dont think there will be a demand in the market for him, and I believe he wants to stay in Buffalo. The bigger question is: Can he ever stay healthy?

 

IMO, Sheppard will be a starter by Week 1. As long as we re-sign Poz (which should be easy to do), our MLB core looks "ok". Ive cut Ayodele as well.

Edited May 18, 2011 by DrDareustein

[Turbosrrgood]

Adding to my post above, I could see our MLBs looking like:

ILB Posluszny, Paul

ILB Kelvin Sheppard

ILB Davis, Andra

ILB Torbor, Reggie

ILB Chris White

 

Not sure why you say "Probably not" to Poz coming back. I dont think there will be a demand in the market for him, and I believe he wants to stay in Buffalo.

 

IMO, Sheppard will be a starter by Week 1. As long as we re-sign Poz (which should be easy to do), our MLB core looks "ok". Ive cut Ayodele as well.

 

The only reason I say that about Poz is that he is more of a 4-3 LB, and really didn't look too good in a 3-4. He's smallish, and makes most of his tackles down field. Plus the injury concerns as you mentioned. He might grab some interest from 4-3 teams. I don't know if I see the Bills making a long term commitment to him (resigning him).

 

I agree that Sheppard will be an immediate starter...He almost has to be, the Bills simply don't have enough talent NOT to start him.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Turbosrrgood

[BADOLBILZ]

People love to knock Kelsey just for the sake of doing it. Don't forget, he was drafted in the 2nd round several coaches and GM's ago as 4-3 defensive end. He was never a "Bruce smith" pass rusher, but I actually WOULD compare him to a Phil Hanson type. He played all aspects of the 4-3 fairly well, and was good against the run.

 

Now he has been moved to 3-4 LB, a situation that was completely new to him last year on a team with virtually no top end defensive talent. Equally important, they have an awful D-coordinator (Edwards's group was awful in Miami, and awful with the Bills). Kelsey was arguably the Bills best defensive player towards the end of the year while playing a mix of 3-4 and 4-3.

 

Situational pass rusher? He played almost every down, and is good against the run. I am not saying Kelsey is some great player..but people love to blame him for all of the defenses problems without justification.

 

 

 

Thank you for some facts about the money, instead of assuming he is getting paid a top end salary.

 

I understand pulling for Moats, but he is not even close to being a starting OLB in the NFL. Ironically HE is the guy that is a pure situational pass rusher. When playing the run he really struggles to wrap guys up, and gets torched in the open field. He pretty much CANT drop into pass coverage. I like Moats rushing the passer, but if he is our starter we are in real trouble...

 

Like it or not, you have to find someone BETTER than Kelsey, before you can replace him.

 

Whenever anyone tries to claim Kelsay is "good against the run" it's pretty obvious that this person does not really understand what they see on the football field. Kelsay is horrible against the run. He is a decent pass rusher. Not special, but getting pressure is the only thing he does at a NFL level.

 

I think people assume that because he gets very few sacks that his talent must be stopping the run. Far from it. He does not play stout as a DE. In the one gap 4-3 he wasn't a playmaker in the run game.....in the 3-4 he gets wrecked. He can't get off blocks and certainly can't set the edge as an OLB. He just got KILLED against the run last year, as did Moats. The Bills defense can't set the edge and Kelsay is a culprit, not an exception.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Ive done my best not to bash Kelsay too badly, even when he's deserved it. But at this point, I can see him being a cut this year, or most certainly next year. I dont even consider Kelsay as an OLB. IF he keeps a roster spot it will be to strictly play the 4-3 DE, IMO. Even with that being said, we already have a bunch of DEs. Not a lot of room for Kelsay here…

 

Cut:

97 McCargo, John DE 6-2 307 27 5 NC State

90 Kelsay, Chris LB 6-4 261 31 8 Nebraska

58 Maybin, Aaron LB 6-4 250 23 2 Penn State

 

Of course, with Kelsay's pay being pretty cheap this year, they may keep him around to balance out the youngins. Although, Im not so sure I want our kids learning anything about football from him...

If I recall correctly, Kelsay was signed to an extension right around October 1st of last year. In other words, he's not even 8 months into the new extension… Kelsay is not getting cut any time soon.

 

Here btw is Tim Graham's analysis of Kelsay's extension complete with "comparables" and comments by Buddy Nix at the time of the signing.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/19714/analyzing-the-chris-kelsay-extension

 

 

[Turbosrrgood]

Whenever anyone tries to claim Kelsay is "good against the run" it's pretty obvious that this person does not really understand what they see on the football field. Kelsay is horrible against the run. He is a decent pass rusher. Not special, but getting pressure is the only thing he does at a NFL level.

 

I think people assume that because he gets very few sacks that his talent must be stopping the run. Far from it. He does not play stout as a DE. In the one gap 4-3 he wasn't a playmaker in the run game.....in the 3-4 he gets wrecked. He can't get off blocks and certainly can't set the edge as an OLB. He just got KILLED against the run last year, as did Moats. The Bills defense can't set the edge and Kelsay is a culprit, not an exception.

 

 

I love it when people make posts like this and claim that they "understand what they see on the football field" better than anyone else simply because they disagree. I accept that Kelsey struggles in the open field, and as an OLB in general. When I say he is good against the run, I mean when he plays along the line of scrimage. He has long arms and is strong enough to tackle guys when he gets to them. This strength is seen more when he is playing in a 4-3. I've watched the Bills for more than just "last year". To claim HE got killed against the run when the D-line was awful, and no other LB's were capable of making a tackle is ridiculous. When he plays the 4-3 (his natural position, and where he's played he had played his whole career), he played the run relatively well. I make no claim that Kelsey is great, or a "run stuffer". But compared to moats who people are suggesting start in his place, he is definitely better against the run. When he gets to a guy, he actually tackles him, not bounce off like the rest of the Bills LB's.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Turbosrrgood

[Rockinon]

Whenever anyone tries to claim Kelsay is "good against the run" it's pretty obvious that this person does not really understand what they see on the football field. Kelsay is horrible against the run. He is a decent pass rusher. Not special, but getting pressure is the only thing he does at a NFL level.

 

I think people assume that because he gets very few sacks that his talent must be stopping the run. Far from it. He does not play stout as a DE. In the one gap 4-3 he wasn't a playmaker in the run game.....in the 3-4 he gets wrecked. He can't get off blocks and certainly can't set the edge as an OLB. He just got KILLED against the run last year, as did Moats. The Bills defense can't set the edge and Kelsay is a culprit, not an exception.

Amen. This team needs the linebackers to step up and Kelsey was way out of position on running plays included.

[Turbosrrgood]

If I recall correctly, Kelsay was signed to an extension right around October 1st of last year. In other words, he's not even 8 months into the new extension… Kelsay is not getting cut any time soon.

 

Here btw is Tim Graham's analysis of Kelsay's extension complete with "comparables" and comments by Buddy Nix at the time of the signing.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/19714/analyzing-the-chris-kelsay-extension

 

Good link, and point.

 

For the record I didn't agree at all with the contract the Bills gave him...He wasn't worth it, especially since they were going 3-4...They probably could have had him at half the price, or less.

 

People love to bash him and blame him for all the defensive problems...I wish the Bills had a better player to put there right now...but they dont...

 

This section of the article sums up my personal feeling on him.

 

"Kelsay has been a nice player for the Bills, but nothing phenomenal. He's a standup guy in the locker room. He has been a starter for seven seasons and has missed only two games since the Bills drafted him 48th overall in 2003. "

 

"

[Zulu Cthulhu]

I respectfully disagree. Although it is unclear on how much of his contract is guaranteed you simply do not give out 4 year 24 million dollar extensions for a situational pass rusher. Oh wait we did do that with Aaron Maybin....although he is more of a situational special teams player. Well atleast Buddy Nix wasn't responsible for that. I must say though Dwan Edwards didn't look to hot before he got hurt last year but that contract was more of whaleys fault. Also that Cornell Green signing by him was awful since we are talking about bad contracts.

 

So if I'm reading you correctly, you disagree because you're still clinging to the idea that Kelsay's making 6mil a year? Even though I and others plainly told you that's not the case?

 

It's ok to have an opinion. It's also ok to change your opinion when you find out it is based on bad information.

[DrDawkinstein]

The only reason I say that about Poz is that he is more of a 4-3 LB, and really didn't look too good in a 3-4. He's smallish, and makes most of his tackles down field. Plus the injury concerns as you mentioned. He might grab some interest from 4-3 teams. I don't know if I see the Bills making a long term commitment to him (resigning him).

 

I agree that Sheppard will be an immediate starter...He almost has to be, the Bills simply don't have enough talent NOT to start him.

 

None of our LBs looked too good last year. A lot of that was due to having a horrible DL in front of them. Williams being the only good/consistent player on the DL. I have high hopes for last years rookies to develop, and Dareus to make an immediate impact.

 

That will go a LOOOOOOOOOOONG way to improving our LBs. Poz lead the team, and was 3rd Overall in the NFL in tackles. So even though OLs had a clear shot at him in the 2nd level, he was still able to get around the ball and make a play. Yes, it may have been 5 yards down field, but the guy was still making plays. If our DL can protect our LBs a little better, they immediately improve.

 

Plus, finally surrounding Poz with some other LB talent (Sheppard, hopefully Merriman) should also help him out a lot.

 

In case people dont realize it, the only real players our D had last year were Williams, Poz, and Whitner. Not counting rookies because they need time to develop, and anything a player contributes their rookie year is a bonus.

 

You can bash Poz for making plays down field, but there were 6 other players from the Front 7 that DIDNT make a play at all, and let the runner go right by them.

 

Bring back your good players, improve the talent around them by replacing the crappy players, and then go from there.

 

Go Bills!!

Edited May 18, 2011 by DrDareustein

[Hplarrm]

Now let's not forget we gave him a 4 year 24 million dollar extension last september. And you don't give someone roughly 6 million a year to be a second string linebacker. So we have to pencil him in as a starter at OLB. Trust me I do not like this notion either but it is a fact. In my opinion we should have let his contract run its course and been done with him. He was a "nice" player for us on a losing team. I compare his value to that of Josh Reed. Someone who was not a Donte Whitner type bust(although they both have the same Coy Wire type of coverage skills)....But he is no Bruce Smith or Phil Hansen for that matter. I fear he will hold back solid young players such as Moats. Just my honest take on the matter.

I know it is a popular thing to lambast Whitner and declare him a bust.

 

However, I think this an extreme view which I think many are motivated to take due to his moronic tweets he is done as Bill he made during the draft.

 

There is a reason why Whitner backtracked on these comments as likely his agent called him and told him that yes he was done as a Bill but its does not help him with contractual negotiations with new teams as an FA to diminish potential stops for him.

 

In my view of his play was Whitner a bog disappointment?

 

Yep. No doubt about it.

 

Was he a bust?

 

Nope.

 

Ryan Leaf was a bust.

 

Mike Williams was a bust.

 

Aaron Maybin shows all the signs of legitimately being called a bust after two pretty horrid seasons. However, even in this case, the conventional wisdom is for one time correct that it is pretty silly declare a player a bust UNTIL he deserves a cut after 3 seasons.

 

If one makes seemingly legitimate judgments based on onfield performance the classic case is that Eric Moulds after two horrid seasons was well on his way to busthood. However, in a combination of he learned how to be a Pro and the Bills braintrust figured how to use him he became a perrenial Pro Bowl candidate for the Bills.

 

This is off the point in terms of player comparison but it clarifies for me the definition of s bust.

 

Whitner showed good potential in his rookie year and was pretty clearly the best safety rookie that year and better than Huff the safety drafted before him.

 

His second year while not outstanding on a bad team was impressive enough that there was legit talk of him as a Pro candidate if he showed the same level of progress his second to third year as he did his rookie to second year.

 

However, though he did try to step up vocally as a leader his body did not cash the checks his mouth wrote.

 

Last year was not a bad year in terms of individual play by Whitner on a horrendous D. However, all generally agree that the DBs were not a big of a problem as the DLs and LBs were.

 

Whitner was a big disappointment, and I agree the Bills should look elsewhere for an SS (unless the lockout allows you to extend him another year at a reasonable cost and then the DB youngsters we drafted can play well enough to take the job but I would not expect Whitner to lose it as once again he would need to perform well for FA.

 

I think you exaggerate to call Whitner a bust though we are likely done with him.

[Jerry Jabber]

Here's an article that Buffalo Rumblings posted today about Kelsay fitting in the Bills defense: http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011/5/18/2177202/chris-kelsay-buffalo-bills-34-43-defense

 

"Kelsay is, by a considerable margin, the toughest front-seven defender to project into Buffalo's various alignments, because he lacks the comprehensive skill set to play any one position (and therefore doesn't have a true position with the Bills), and has the type of contract that mandates he be on the field. The Bills are going to use Kelsay quite a bit next season - and in all likelihood, you'll see him stand up and rush the passer, rush with a hand in the dirt, and even drop into coverage. As the Bills continue to flesh out their defensive identity, it's just going to get even more difficult to fit Kelsay in. Right now, he seems more like a guy that they'll plug into a hole than a guy who'll live up to his franchise-building block contract."

 

I agree with this 100%. IMO, Kelsay is a good backup DE in the 4-3, but that's about it.

[DrDawkinstein]

I know it is a popular thing to lambast Whitner and declare him a bust.

 

However....

 

I think you exaggerate to call Whitner a bust though we are likely done with him.

 

There is no place for such rational thinking when speaking about Whitner!

[bizell]

guys, people seem to be stuck in the fact that "since he signed a 4yr, 24 million dollar extension he must have 6mil/yr". THE CONTRACT ISNT THAT WAY SO STOP SAYING HE'S MAKING 6MIL A YEAR

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

guys, people seem to be stuck in the fact that "since he signed a 4yr, 24 million dollar extension he must have 6mil/yr". THE CONTRACT ISNT THAT WAY SO STOP SAYING HE'S MAKING 6MIL A YEAR

Agreed, which is an issue that kills the Tim Graham article linked above as well. Who knows when and if those bonuses kick in. They could even be performance driven.

[DrDawkinstein]

If I recall correctly, Kelsay was signed to an extension right around October 1st of last year. In other words, he's not even 8 months into the new extension… Kelsay is not getting cut any time soon.

 

Here btw is Tim Graham's analysis of Kelsay's extension complete with "comparables" and comments by Buddy Nix at the time of the signing.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/19714/analyzing-the-chris-kelsay-extension

 

Those numbers have already been proven false, and he is not that big of a hit if cut.

 

Not cutting a guy only because he is 8 months into an extension, is the type of BS I'd expect from Brandon/Jauron.

 

Buddy has been very adamant that we are going to transition completely to a 3-4 eventually. We will be running less and less of the 4-3. All it will take is for a couple of the young/rookie DLs and LBs to develop and Kelsay is gone. Great guy, mediocre football player. We are moving on from mediocre.

Edited May 18, 2011 by DrDareustein

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Those numbers have already been proven false, and he is not that big of a hit if cut.

 

Not cutting a guy only because he is 8 months into an extension, is the type of BS I'd expect from Brandon/Jauron.

 

Buddy has been very adimant that we are going to transition completely to a 3-4 eventually. We will be running less and less of the 4-3. All it will take is for a couple of the young/rookie DLs and LBs to develop and Kelsay is gone. Great guy, mediocre football player. We are moving on from mediocre.

I say that Kelsay will not be cut in 2011.

[vincec]

Here's an article that Buffalo Rumblings posted today about Kelsay fitting in the Bills defense: http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011/5/18/2177202/chris-kelsay-buffalo-bills-34-43-defense

 

"Kelsay is, by a considerable margin, the toughest front-seven defender to project into Buffalo's various alignments, because he lacks the comprehensive skill set to play any one position (and therefore doesn't have a true position with the Bills), and has the type of contract that mandates he be on the field. The Bills are going to use Kelsay quite a bit next season - and in all likelihood, you'll see him stand up and rush the passer, rush with a hand in the dirt, and even drop into coverage. As the Bills continue to flesh out their defensive identity, it's just going to get even more difficult to fit Kelsay in. Right now, he seems more like a guy that they'll plug into a hole than a guy who'll live up to his franchise-building block contract."

 

I agree with this 100%. IMO, Kelsay is a good backup DE in the 4-3, but that's about it.

Kelsay is the best 4-3 DE on the team. If the Bills are going to play much 4-3, then he will be playing. Simple as that.

 

With that being said, I think that IF Merriman comes back and plays well, IF he can stay healthy, and IF the Bills can find another ILB (Sheppard or White or somebody), the Bills will not be showing very much 4-3 at all. I think saying that they're going to continue to play a "hybrid" defense is only a rationalization because the don't have the personnel for the 3-4, which is what the really want.

[DrDawkinstein]

I say that Kelsay will not be cut in 2011.

 

I actually agree, what I've been saying is that we can cut him if they want to. Sure, technically they could've done that any time, but not really as he was (sadly) our 2nd best DE for years.

 

My point is that we have/are close to having the personnel around to make him expendable. His contract wont matter if some of the kids step up. His time is ticking away...

Edited May 18, 2011 by DrDareustein

[DreReed83]

MMMMOOOAAAATTTSSSSSSSSSSS

[stevewin]

Perhaps a more appropriate subtitle would be "He shat, forget about him!"