Cash Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Here's my problem. Neither Poz or Donte is great, they are both average. But how many fricken holes can we patch in a year? So we keep KW, Merriman, Carrington, Troup, Moats, Byrd, Florence and Dwan and let everyone else go? We need help at DE, NT, OLB, ILB. If we had a hint of a rush, the DB's would look better automatically. I fully agree. What the Bills (and some of us fans) don't seem to get, at least for the last decade or so, is that you don't get better by dumping your best players (even if they're mediocre) and drafting guys to replace them. You get better by dumping your worst players, and drafting guys to either play alongside your best guys or take their jobs. Poz takes a lot of blame, but what if he was our 3rd-best LB? That'd be pretty good. And what if Whitner was the 7th-best guy on our D instead of the 3rd-best? Not too shabby. Off the top of my head: Lawyer Milloy wasn't cutting it, so he got cut & we drafted Donte Whitner Willis McGahee wasn't cutting it, so he got traded & we drafted Marshawn Lynch Takeo Spikes & London Fletcher weren't cutting it*, so neither was offered a new contract, & we drafted Poz & signed Kawika Mitchell Now Poz isn't cutting it*, so we let him go and ? For Whitner, I'll give the Bills a pass, because while I would like to see him back, he's apparently asking top 5 money for a safety, and a small-market team like the Bills can't afford to play an average to above-average starter like he's a difference maker. (I also sort of give the Bills a pass on all the CBs, because I tend to think that if the finances were different, the Bills would've loved to keep Clements, Greer, and maybe Winfield. Criticizing the Bills for being cheap is a different topic. I'm criticizing the Bills for doing a poor job of team-building.) *THEY MAKE ALL THEIR TACKLES 5 YARDS DOWNFIELD! GAH! Every other team's linebackers make at least half their tackles in the backfield!! Right? Anyway, for a team who's stated goal is to build through the draft and essentially not use free agency to acquire talent, I hope they realize that for that to work, they have to 1.) have good drafts, and 2.) almost never lose a good player to free agency. They're looking 0 for 2 on that right now, but we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I fully agree. What the Bills (and some of us fans) don't seem to get, at least for the last decade or so, is that you don't get better by dumping your best players (even if they're mediocre) and drafting guys to replace them. You get better by dumping your worst players, and drafting guys to either play alongside your best guys or take their jobs. Glad someone else finally agrees with me. It seems so simple to me, but I always get yelled at when I suggest we keep our top guys and get rid of our worst guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It's funny that folks here keep increasing that number. When the tweets first started, it was $5M+. Then it went up to $6M+. Now people are saying $7M+. And I don't think there has been any word on what he's REALLY asking for, it's just people making stuff up as they go. Kinda funny. But also typical. It also helps to refresh ones memory about the meaning of negotiation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 George Wilson will be a much better starting safety for this team. A guy with a better attitude than Whitner and one who actually makes plays in his given time. Actually George Wilson is an unrestricted free agent too, and just said in the last 24 hours that he has worked his whole life for this one big payday. Good chance he won't be back also, remember who our owner is and he blew his wad on Merriman the other day. Well if he didn't want to be in Buffalo he wouldn't have signed. At least Merriman had a shadow. Poz is slow and can't shed blockers. Even without a salary cap we all know RW has a limited budget to sign FA's. That budget should not be used for Poz or Whitner. Florence YES. The others can all walk. Poz can't shed blockers? Merriman can't get on the dang field-so which helps the Bills more? Millions of dollars on the IR or a tackling machine that can't cover receivers? Anybody can see the correct answer to that question-Go Poz! But then again, Nix didn't draft Poz so he doesn't get the undeserved money like Merriman. And yes he would have signed even if he didn't want to be here when it is clear no other team is going to pay him with his birth dad Nix did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It's funny that folks here keep increasing that number. When the tweets first started, it was $5M+. Then it went up to $6M+. Now people are saying $7M+. And I don't think there has been any word on what he's REALLY asking for, it's just people making stuff up as they go. Kinda funny. But also typical. There is no official word yet, but it's not hard to speculate. He was being paid ~6 mil per year (5yrs - 29mil), based on his career-high year in tackles, inflated sense of self-worth, and recent posturing, does it really sound like he is willing to take a pay cut? The Bills are not creating a hole by losing Whitner, in fact it will probably feel like an anchor has been removed from the neck of OBD. Of course fans will scream that the team keeps wasting 1st round picks, and they're right, but it's not news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Am I missing something here? I am pretty sure Gaily said his status was "tenuous", the same words he used to describe Maybin's status. Do we really still believe this is all about money? I think it is only in as-much as Donte does not want to play for the vet minimum, which is about what he is worth in my mind. BTW, his pride will not allow him to come back to the Bills. Guaranteed he will sign a McNabb like contract first day or two of free agency, then when the details come out it will be revealed to be nothing more than an incentive laded deal with guarantees and roster bonuses in years 2,3,and 4 that will be in no means guaranteed, but will be represented as such by his agent Edited January 4, 2011 by plenzmd1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Chris Brown writes: Bills SS Donte Whitner was emotional after the season finale Sunday. The loss was bad enough, but the uncertainty of his playing future was already affecting him. link What prompted me to post the link is the fact that bb.com has disallowed all replies. I imagine that they got an earful, especially after Whitner mailed it in the final 2 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Chris Brown writes: link What prompted me to post the link is the fact that bb.com has disallowed all replies. I imagine that they got an earful, especially after Whitner mailed it in the final 2 games. Disallowing and disabling unwelcome comments? Wow, Simon works for the Bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I imagine that they got an earful, especially after Whitner mailed it in the final 2 games. Mailed it in...? Like when he forced a fumble just as the guy crossed the goal line? Yeah, he's no star. But he hardly sucks. He was being paid ~6 mil per year (5yrs - 29mil), He was "only" paid $2.8M for this season, according to Fox Sports: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/donte-whitner/401237 I wouldn't mind seeing him back. Not for $10M/year, obviously, but for $4M? Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Disallowing and disabling unwelcome comments? Wow, Simon works for the Bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 He was "only" paid $2.8M for this season, according to Fox Sports: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/donte-whitner/401237 I wouldn't mind seeing him back. Not for $10M/year, obviously, but for $4M? Sure. You can't discount a front-loaded contract and the guaranteed money he received upfront. OBD spent $29 million over 5 years on him, that's 5.8M a year regardless of how they structured it. In his mind (and his agent's) he sees 5 yrs/29 mil and thinks "OK, lets start negotiating up from there." Ain't gonna happen Donte. To be honest, I bet the Bills offered him the figure you stated, about $3M - $4M a year in maybe a 4-5 year deal. He might be worth that. Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmr60 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I fully agree. What the Bills (and some of us fans) don't seem to get, at least for the last decade or so, is that you don't get better by dumping your best players (even if they're mediocre) and drafting guys to replace them. You get better by dumping your worst players, and drafting guys to either play alongside your best guys or take their jobs. Poz takes a lot of blame, but what if he was our 3rd-best LB? That'd be pretty good. And what if Whitner was the 7th-best guy on our D instead of the 3rd-best? Not too shabby. Off the top of my head: Lawyer Milloy wasn't cutting it, so he got cut & we drafted Donte Whitner Willis McGahee wasn't cutting it, so he got traded & we drafted Marshawn Lynch Takeo Spikes & London Fletcher weren't cutting it*, so neither was offered a new contract, & we drafted Poz & signed Kawika Mitchell Now Poz isn't cutting it*, so we let him go and ? For Whitner, I'll give the Bills a pass, because while I would like to see him back, he's apparently asking top 5 money for a safety, and a small-market team like the Bills can't afford to play an average to above-average starter like he's a difference maker. (I also sort of give the Bills a pass on all the CBs, because I tend to think that if the finances were different, the Bills would've loved to keep Clements, Greer, and maybe Winfield. Criticizing the Bills for being cheap is a different topic. I'm criticizing the Bills for doing a poor job of team-building.) *THEY MAKE ALL THEIR TACKLES 5 YARDS DOWNFIELD! GAH! Every other team's linebackers make at least half their tackles in the backfield!! Right? Anyway, for a team who's stated goal is to build through the draft and essentially not use free agency to acquire talent, I hope they realize that for that to work, they have to 1.) have good drafts, and 2.) almost never lose a good player to free agency. They're looking 0 for 2 on that right now, but we'll see. Very well thought out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Very well thought out. +1 Great post by Cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 You can't discount a front-loaded contract and the guaranteed money he received upfront. OBD spent $29 million over 5 years on him, that's 5.8M a year regardless of how they structured it. In his mind (and his agent's) he sees 5 yrs/29 mil and thinks "OK, lets start negotiating up from there." Ain't gonna happen Donte. To be honest, I bet the Bills offered him the figure you stated, about $3M - $4M a year in maybe a 4-5 year deal. He might be worth that. Maybe. But again, NOBODY on this board knows what he's looking for or what he was offered. Everyone (including myself) is making guesses, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster Guy Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I know that the popular opinion is to dump both of them, but this team cannot improve if they continue to make holes that they have to fill via the draft or FA. Witness Antoine Williams, Pat Williams, London Fletcher, Jason Peters, ad nauseum. At some point you have to keep your average players and put better players around them. Whitner is not an All-Pro, but is still useful. Poz is useless in coverage, but is good in run defense . . . If you want to turn around the franchise and actually win more than 4-6-7 games, you have to keep some talent and raise the overall talent level on the field. Jason Peters was different. That was a trade and we got Andy Levitre with that pick. Here's my question to everyone who thinks we should release Poz and Whitner, if they were FREE and cost the team nothing would you keep them? What if we could easily afford them and they didn't preclude us from having enough money to sign the free agents this offseason with reasonable asking prices? When I look at the Bills team salaries, there is plenty of room there to keep these guys and sign more FA's. So why wouldn't you want them in camp next year to at least compete against the strong new talent you obviously think we have waiting in the wings to take over the ILB and SS spots. Let the staff evaluate them and then just trade or waive em if they can't make the team. Why let them go now and get nothing while weakening the teams competition in training camp? Im not an NFL talent evaluator, but it seems to me that most strong safeties don't do well in coverage, and most tackles that linebackers make (when they have a sub-par D line in front of them) are downfield. I personally like Wilson better than Whitner but that's for the coaches to evaluate and decide on. We need depth and we need draft picks right now, and releasing your two leading tacklers on an already bad defense when you have the money to keep them is foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 But again, NOBODY on this board knows what he's looking for or what he was offered. Everyone (including myself) is making guesses, nothing more. But ANYONE with half a brain knows the range in which he's looking for based on his current compensation and CBS' published reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsadale Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 The more I have watched POZ these last few weeks get blown back by blocks and then make tackles downfield the more I have realized that he just doesn't have it. His coverage ... haha ... cannot even call what he does pass coverage ... is a gift to opposing players who discover that they have entered the POZ zone. The POZ Dispenser gives out receptions as candy. Of the two, both of whom I think we should say goodbye to, and I hate to say this ... but I think Donte is the one we resign. Let Poz go off to get a lot of worthless tackles with some other team ... his statistics and Penn State history will sucker a team in. Who knows if we let Aaron go maybe that team can get a two-fer. Why not, it's the New Year and time to share glad tidings! I remember the same nonsense being said about London Fletcher. While Poz may not be elite at this point, losing him would create another gaping hole. Whitner I would offer what the Bills have been reported to have offered and possibly some incentives, but that's it. Sign Poz, stand firm on Whitner. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) let me guess ... the Poz haters are Fitz fans. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics LOOK WHO SITS in the #3 and #5 spots!!! 103 SOLO tackles and 48 assists!!!! Edited January 5, 2011 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 let me guess ... the Poz haters are Fitz fans. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics LOOK WHO SITS in the #3 and #5 spots!!! 103 SOLO tackles and 48 assists!!!! Did you notice that the only other team with 2 players in the top 20 in tackles was the Carolina Panthers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 let me guess ... the Poz haters are Fitz fans. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics LOOK WHO SITS in the #3 and #5 spots!!! 103 SOLO tackles and 48 assists!!!! Having your safety and LB leading the team in tackles is not a good thing. It shows how poor our defensive line actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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