How are we EVER supposed to compete

[Cookiemonster]

You beat them with schemes and solid coaching, take a page from them. The actual talent level from

team to team in the NFL does not have as large of a disparity as one might be led to believe.

Coaching and having the right pesonnel in the right places is way underrated.

[QB Bills]

Just a well run organization from the owner on down. Plus they hit the jackpot with Brady. Plus they got Belechick when no one else wanted him. Pioli was terrific as GM. Plus they have awesome scouts who have been with the team forever. Constrast that with the Bills, who have great fan support but are strictly minor league in every other respect and have an absentee owner. Bob Kraft is head and shoulders over Ralph Wilson. He changed it all. The Bills need a local owner like Kraft. And an economy that can support a first rate organization and facilities. Neither one does or can exist in my opinion. Buffalo is Akron. Boston is major league. Buffalo is strictly minor league. Just the way it is. The Kelly era was a one time flash in the pan. Great, but really cannot be replicated in today's big money, big facilities, rock star NFL. Buffalo is kind of a homey, clubby franchise, which is fine. The good teams are well run by professionals and have the money to invest in their franchises. The homey, clubby franchises get blasted more times than not by the pros. Just the way it is. Be happy there is even a NFL franchise in a lovable to be sure but minor league place like Buffalo.

That's just a copout. How major league is Pittsburgh and Indianapolis? By your rationale, Dallas couldn't possibly have gone over a decade without winning a playoff game.

 

The easy answer as to why NE is consistently at the top is simple: Bill Belichick.

 

Sure, good ownership is important, but only to the point of not interfering or being overly stingy.

 

It's not Brady, even though he is a top QB. I think the Matt Cassel experiment proved it. No, they didn't make the playoffs, but they won 11 games with an average-at-best QB (and no, it wasn't because of their defense).

 

Belichick handles the coaching and personnel duties on the team. Even when Pioli et al were with them, I remember reading that Belichick was the guy behind everything.

 

This might sound outrageous, but I'd trade our whole roster for Belichick, give him whatever money he wanted, and let him build the roster from scratch. I'd be willing to bet that by year 3 we'd be better off than we are now.

[JohnC]

Using Brady to justify the screaming-teenage-girl hysteria for Andy Boy is a non-starter. Brady lingered until the 6th round of the draft, and evenetually emeraged a star QB. Luck could be drafted #1 overall (when he comes out in 2012) and could end up a total bust.

 

 

Your premise is invalid. That's my point.

 

Any player taken in any round could be a bust. So does that mean that you avoid making a pick because of the risk of failure? Jason Peters was a free agent draftee who developed into a good LT. Does that mean you give up your high picks for lower round picks because of their potential value? Of course not.

 

There are no guarantees in the draft. But if a player is ranked at the top or near the top of a draftboard and he plays at the most important position on the field of which you have a need then you go ahead and make the pick. Atlanta took a highly rated qb in Matt Ryan and it worked out tremendously well for them. St. Louis took a highly rated qb in Bradford with the first pick in the draft last year and it also worked out tremendously well for them. It is not an exaggeration to make the claim that they were central acquisitions in changing the direction of their once struggling franchises.

[The Senator]

The Jets are (were) overrated. They only have one win against a team with a winning record (New England). They could still miss the playoffs (remaining schedule: Miami, Pittsburg, Chicago and us)however it will be difficult for San Diego or Indianapolis to catch them.

It would be SOOOO great if NJ would slump so SD, Indy, or OakTown could catch up to them, then see the Bills knock the Jersey Jets out of the playoffs on Jan. 2nd!

 

6 and 10, baby!!!

 

GO BILLSSS!!!!

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!!!!!

 

.

Edited December 7, 2010 by The Senator

[The Senator]

Any player taken in any round could be a bust. So does that mean that you avoid making a pick because of the risk of failure? Jason Peters was a free agent draftee who developed into a good LT. Does that mean you give up your high picks for lower round picks because of their potential value? Of course not.

 

There are no guarantees in the draft. But if a player is ranked at the top or near the top of a draftboard and he plays at the most important position on the field of which you have a need then you go ahead and make the pick. Atlanta took a highly rated qb in Matt Ryan and it worked out tremendously well for them. St. Louis took a highly rated qb in Bradford with the first pick in the draft last year and it also worked out tremendously well for them. It is not an exaggeration to make the claim that they were central acquisitions in changing the direction of their once struggling franchises.

I guess I'm still a little unclear on the flow of logic, which seems to go...

 

Brady is better than Fitz;

 

Now do you understand why so many want Luck?

 

 

 

I'd expect Brady - a 6th round pick drafted in 2000, to be better than Fitz - a 7th rounder drafted in 2005. I think anyone would. Is the point that it's some metaphysical certitude that Fitz will never get even better as he and the team around him develop and mature, or that people want to draft a PAC 10 red-shirt sophomore because Tom Brady is good?

[billsfreak]

Coming off of the bye the Bills played a few good teams close and then actually won two in a row. Just when the old passion and enthusiasm for the team began to emerge, the wheels fell off in Minny. Then I see the Patriots roll the Jets like they were a D-2 squad. Leading me to ask how are we ever going to compete with the Pats?

Excuse me for not researching it, but off of the top of my head I believe they have beaten us 14 straight times and 19 of the last 20. New England also has 2 picks in each of the first 4 rounds of the draft.

The Patriots have their own picks plus these:

• First-rounder from Oakland Raiders (for Richard Seymour).
• Second-rounder from Carolina Panthers (from trade at this year's draft).
• Third-rounder from the Minnesota Vikings (for Randy Moss and seventh-round pick).
• Fourth-rounder from the Denver Broncos (for Laurence Maroney and sixth-round pick).

The second rounder from Carolina is likely to be the #33 pick, which isn't too shabby. They will use some picks and wisely trade some away and secure additional picks for the future. They have a young D which will only improve over time and look like a firmly entrenched dynasty. Bills fans on the other hand, are relegated to feeling good about moral victories and wins against two-win teams.

It will be a very long time before we will ever really compete for the division period, much less with just the Patriots. The main reason being ownership, which in turn leads to Coaching and Personnel decisions (drafting, free agents, trading, etc.). Until there is a new person at the top of the Buffalo Bills pyramid, nothing will ever change. The old saying is 100% true in that crap rolls down hill, so if it is subpar at top everything below it is going to be supbar.

[JohnC]

I guess I'm still a little unclear on the flow of logic, which seems to go...

 

Brady is better than Fitz;

 

Now do you understand why so many want Luck?

 

 

 

I'd expect Brady - a 6th round pick drafted in 2000, to be better than Fitz - a 7th rounder drafted in 2005. I think anyone would. Is the point that it's some metaphysical certitude that Fitz will never get even better as he and the team around him develop and mature, or that people want to draft a PAC 10 red-shirt sophomore because Tom Brady is good?

 

Senator, When drafting and evaluating current players on their potential to develop there rarely is certitude. Players at the qb position such as Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Rich Gannon, Garcia, Steve Young and others didn't conform to the original evaluation.

 

What it comes down to is judgment, or another way of saying it is an educated guess. You are absolutely right that no one can say for sure how a particular player is going develop.

 

If the Bills have an opportunity to draft Luck they would be foolish not to based on his skill level and a variety of attributes he possesses associated with being successful in the NFL. Who knows, maybe Fitz might turn out to be a better qb? I doubt it. In my eyes he is an average starting qb at best and a terrific backup qb. I am well aware that there is a significant number of people who would confidently say that I am wrong. That is the nature of the beast. You never really know until a bit later.

Edited December 7, 2010 by JohnC

[BuffaloBaumer]

I guess I'm still a little unclear on the flow of logic, which seems to go...

 

Brady is better than Fitz;

 

Now do you understand why so many want Luck?

 

 

 

I'd expect Brady - a 6th round pick drafted in 2000, to be better than Fitz - a 7th rounder drafted in 2005. I think anyone would. Is the point that it's some metaphysical certitude that Fitz will never get even better as he and the team around him develop and mature, or that people want to draft a PAC 10 red-shirt sophomore because Tom Brady is good?

 

This is where I think you lose everybody....the point the whole time has been that having a player like Brady is the cure.If Luck turns out to be what everyone thinks, THAT is the cure. It has nothing to do with Brady in the 6th, Luck in the 1st and so on and so on...

[BuffaloBud]

Don't get me wrong, Promo, as much as I'm clamoring for this team getting a Franchise QB, I don't have any notion that it's a magic elixir that will instantly cure all this team's woes. There are lots of elements needed that this team does not currently have ... but finding that rare Franchise QB is the TOUGHEST thing to do. Hence why it's at the top of my shopping list.

 

I know I'm in the minority that thinks Fitz isn't that guy, and that's fine. I hope he IS that guy and that I'm proven wrong. I'd happily admit to being wrong.

 

End of the day, all I want is to see this team win a Super Bowl. Just like everyone else. I just happen to think you cannot accomplish that in the modern NFL without that Franchise QB. Get him. However you have to. It's worth the risk ... you know?

 

Tgreg-

 

I hear where you are coming from, but drafting a "franchise" QB is not as easy as you make it. If you make a mistake there I equate it to putting yourself in financial cap hell for 5-6 years. Here is my point. Look at Cleveland post-Kosar. Tim Couch, Charlie Frye, Jeff Garcia, Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn to name a few. All highly touted - all well paid (some a lot more than others). And, the Browns are still digging out of a QB hole. Some are layups (Manning), some are not (Montana). They just don't drop on your doorstop with signs on their chest that say "franchise qb." There are more swing and misses than hits. And, the spread / pistol offense, I feel, is really going to screw this up even more.

[reddogblitz]

The QB makes the line, the line doesn't make the QB. Brady's been sacked one more time than Fitz while playing 2 more games than him so that's pretty comparable. The Pats defense is ranked 2nd worse in the league. I don't think the Pats skilled players are that much superior to the Bills. And yet the Pats are 10-2 and the Bills are 2-10. Why? Simply put the Pats have a franchise QB and the Bills don't. Period.

The QB makes the line? Really? A good QB can make a bad line look better. Like Fitz makes the Bills line look better than they did with Trent. But do you really think that if a "franchise QB" comes in our line will look like NE's line? New England has a great line. Brady gets sacked, but most plays he stands in the pocket unrushed in no hurry and has time to step into the pass and make good passes. If Fitz had that kindof time, instead of only throwing 20 TDs in 10 games, he'd probably have close to 30 like Tom Terrific.

 

The best way to make the Bills better next year is to vastly improve the OLine and DLine. We do that, and we're competing with New England next year. They've only beaten us by 8, 1, and 7 in the last 3 games. So maybe we are competing with them and not as far away from beating as it looked last night?

 

We'll see what happens in a couple of weeks.

Edited December 7, 2010 by reddogblitz

[The Senator]

This is where I think you lose everybody....the point the whole time has been that having a player like Brady is the cure.If Luck turns out to be what everyone some thinks, THAT is the cure. It has nothing to do with Brady in the 6th, Luck in the 1st and so on and so on...

Made a minor correction, B², 'cause not everyone thinks Andy's gonna be all that great. (What if he turns out to be Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, or Jeff George? Or worse?)

 

If it's about a having a player like Brady, well Fitz hasn't been a starter for even a year - so I'd be inclined to give him time to develop (and have the team develop around him) just like Brady had, or draft a Brady-esque QB in round 6, or 7 (or even sign a UFA the likes of Kurt Warner or Warren Moon).

 

.

Edited December 7, 2010 by The Senator

[Mr_Blizzard]

"...Just give it to them lives on."

 

Ouch! We have to many freakin' sports history majors in this forum! J/K

 

To answer the OP, it all starts up front. Buffalo needs to build a team that can control both sides of the line of scrimmage. Sort of like the team that just spanked us last weekend. It starts there. Great QB who doesn't have time to throw (refer to Peyton Manning's performance this past Sunday) is not going to succeed. We need a killer O-Line, and a strong D.

 

Good coaching, and strength and conditioning too. We knew going into this season that it was gonna be a long one. Hopefully the parade of free agents has yielded some guys who can build depth for the team, and we have a decent draft next April. We get a couple decent FA pickups and maybe we move to back to the middle of the pack. I say at best, we are 2 years away from being a top quartile team, and we happen to have 2 very strong teams in our division.

 

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Mr_Blizzard

[billsfan89]

OK the Pats* did a good job of stock piling picks they will likely have 3 picks in the top 35 with a pick as high as 12 (The Raiders pick which should be between 12-16) and another two in the late 20's to mid 30's (Their own 1st plus Carolinas 2nd rounder). Throw in an extra 3rd rounder and 5th rounder and they go into this draft with a ton of picks.

 

BUT they have been average at best going into the draft recently. They have thrown a lot of high draft picks into the defense and its ranked 31st. They also have had busts like Marony in high picks. They have had some hits like Mayo and the tightends from this year look good. Its all about how they spend their picks not how many they have.

 

If they only get one worth while player out of the 3 top picks they have then what good where they?

[qdawg in philly]

Well if this is a copy cat league, the bills need to copy everything that the pats do! As for Luck....well i like Newton! And if for any reason its his stature! He reminds me of Big Ben! If we draft a qb, isn't he going to sit a year anyway?! Idk, we just need so much fellas! But I agree, it does start at the top! I think nix has a good game plan! We just have to be patient! But fellas, it all starts in the trenches! Nix has to find a way to get more picks, bottom line!!!

[DanInUticaTampa]

LUCK? LUCK? You are comparing a college qb with NO experience in the NFL to TOM BRADY? Are you nuts? Not to mention that Brady was not a first round draft choice. The key is to start in the trenches. If you get Luck and your time of possession is as patheti as ours has been it doesn't matter how good he is.

 

It is obvious his point was that Luck actually has the potential to be an elite QB, where Fitz has probably reached his potential. This might be our best shot to get a QB with this much potential, yet too many people are saying "pass" because it is ok to settle for a QB that plays well.... taking a QB with Luck's potential is well worth it, and is something this team needs.

 

As far as the trenches go, we have been building in the trenches. We used a 1st rounder AND a 2nd rounder on the offensive line all in the same draft.... we have developed bell into a decent LT (a MUCH better LT than the steelers are dealing with right now). And in the last draft, 2 of our top 3 picks we on the defensive line.

 

People keep crying that we have to build the trenches, yet they don't see them actually doing that? All you guys see is spiller, maybin, and DBs and complain about the trenches. The past two drafts have been working toward the trenches more than anything. The starting offensive line is looking pretty good right now, aside from RT. Our Depth now... that sucks. But if you are saying we should build o-line depth over looking for a franchise QB, then that is just WAY to conservative and crazy to draft oline depth over a franchise QB.

 

The defensive line obviously needs some work, but they are obviously going to address that since they are already working on it. In one offseason they brought in 4 new players/big prospects for the front 7: Davis, Edwards, Troup, carrington. Then you can throw moats in there as a player who actually developed faster.

 

Truth is, they ARE working on the trenches. They need a lot more work though. But I see nothing to say they are going to stop working on them.

Edited December 7, 2010 by DanInUticaTampa

[akm0404]

You may call me crazy, but no, I don't understand. I honnestly think that Brady and Fitz are quite the same type of guys. The "only" differences between them are the OL, TE and bilicheat

 

Are you on drugs? Please seek help.

[reddogblitz]

Fitz has probably reached his potential.

OK DanInUticaTampa, what makes you think this exactly? I hope you have to have a reason beyond "I just think so". So, what is it?

 

Everyone said in the off season he had reached his potential and he had not. Who's to say that if he is the number one guy in the off season and gets a majority of snaps in mini camp and training camp and pre season AND we improve our offensive line he won't be better? History tells me he probably will. Last year he threw 9 TDs and 10 Ints. This year it's 20 TDs and 11 Ints so far. His completion percentage also improved by about 5 points.

 

So I challenge you, what makes you say that?

[Pneumonic]

OK the Pats* did a good job of stock piling picks they will likely have 3 picks in the top 35 with a pick as high as 12 (The Raiders pick which should be between 12-16) and another two in the late 20's to mid 30's (Their own 1st plus Carolinas 2nd rounder). Throw in an extra 3rd rounder and 5th rounder and they go into this draft with a ton of picks.

 

BUT they have been average at best going into the draft recently. They have thrown a lot of high draft picks into the defense and its ranked 31st. They also have had busts like Marony in high picks. They have had some hits like Mayo and the tightends from this year look good. Its all about how they spend their picks not how many they have.

 

If they only get one worth while player out of the 3 top picks they have then what good where they?

The last two drafts have been excellent for the Patriots and look to be starting to pay huge dividends but, you are right, the draft classes previous to them have been less than impressive. However, the 08 and 07 drafts were largely poor throughout the league so I'm not sure it's fair to single the Pats out.

 

And don't forget the Pats traded two of their 07 picks for Moss and Welker so if you include them then one could argue that their 07 draft was about as good as it gets.

[DanInUticaTampa]

OK DanInUticaTampa, what makes you think this exactly? I hope you have to have a reason beyond "I just think so". So, what is it?

 

Everyone said in the off season he had reached his potential and he had not. Who's to say that if he is the number one guy in the off season and gets a majority of snaps in mini camp and training camp and pre season AND we improve our offensive line he won't be better? History tells me he probably will. Last year he threw 9 TDs and 10 Ints. This year it's 20 TDs and 11 Ints so far. His completion percentage also improved by about 5 points.

 

So I challenge you, what makes you say that?

 

Because he has been in the league for what, 5 years now? And it is obvious why he has improved this year from last year: Coaching. But you are acting like this is the first time Fitz has actually played well. Did you not watch this guy at all before he became a bill? When he filled in for the rams due to injury his rookie season, all espn could talk about all week was "MAN! This harvard QB is pretty damn good!" and that was like 5 years ago. The guy is good, but if he had the talent to become an elite QB, he would have shown it by now. The guy has the same talent he has always had, and has grown as far as his instincts go. But his talent isn't going to be elite. QBs don't just become talented overnight after being ok for 5 years. Unless you are michael vick who wastes his life away, then decides to use his talent after sitting in prison.

 

But yeah, aren't these the years that a QB should be in their prime to begin with? Unless what I am saying is against the norm, I don't know why you are shocked by what I said.

Edited December 7, 2010 by DanInUticaTampa

[boyst]

Damn, the Patriots are amazing. I just read this thread with each new post and get that much more impressed, because all that matters is the rings and the W's.