Troup vs Cody

[KD in CA]

Anyone who actually believes Cody weighs anywhere near 350 pounds needs to have their head examined.

[Steely Dan]

To be fair, listed weights, especially for the NFL's big men are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate.

 

As one lineman recently said, asking a lineman what his weight is, is like asking a woman what her age is.

 

Listed weights for nose tackles is like a running joke on NFL telecasts.

 

I don't think that changes my point. I'm pretty sure there isn't a difference of 40 pounds being reported for some of these guys. If they list Cody at 350 he's probably closer to 375. JMO

 

 

Now insert Troup instead of Cody and ask if it's still not a big deal?

 

PTR

 

If Troup fails his camp physical some people will be all over him here. JMO

 

 

Troup was probably the strongest DT to come out of the draft, and every scouting report I've read points to his tremendous strength and inability for lineman to move him. I'm not sure where you are getting your information.

 

 

Many of the posts in this thread are proof that some people care more about being right than they do reality. So, let me get this straight... dude is missing a mandatory practice because he's out of shape and that's OK? On the other hand, if Hardy or someone on the Bills looks out of shape (heavens, please don't let them miss a voluntary practice for personal reasons), they're a bust or at best aren't committed to the team?

 

Any way you slice it, he's a rookie that just showed up to training camp out of shape. There's not a planet in existence in which that would be acceptable.

 

[HurlyBurly51]

The prototypical nose these days is 350. That's what most teams look for in their NT. Not a lie at all, just the modern NFL. Pretty common known information.

 

Various 3-4 defenses run different styles, and some of them have lighter (315) NT's. Look at Dallas.

[Gabe Northern]

Kris Jenkins 360, Casey Hampton is 325, Wilfork 325, Pickett 340, Dvoracek 303, Ron Edwards 315, Ron Fields 314, Aubrayo Franklin 317, Kelly Gregg 315, Ogemdi Nwagbuo 303, Sione Pouha 325, B.J. Raji 337, Jay Ratliff 303, Bryan Robinson 304, Shaun Rogers 350, Ahtyba Rubin 330, Ian Scott 315, Paul Soliai 355, Kelly Talavou 350, Martin Tevaseu 310, Gabe Watson 329, Willie Williams 305, Jamal Williams 348 and Pat Williams 317.

 

You are including lots of 4-3 DTs who play a completely different position. Totally unfair.

 

The 3-4 "1" techniques on that list are gigantic fat people.

[Andre Speed]

this is why Troup weighs less than a buick at this time:

 

""When I came into college, I was 350 (lbs.) so I couldn't play as many plays my freshman year. I would play two or three plays and then I'd have to come out."

"constantly worked in the weight room and was constantly running on my own to build my conditioning because .. it's hard to go that fourth quarter, especially if you're getting double teams."

 

http://ucfathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-foot.../042310aai.html

 

this is not some little guy we need to "fatten up", ok? when he weighs 315, he may have more muscle mass on him than moby.. i mean cody does at 975, or whatever he's up to by now.

 

let the young man BE.. and see what he actually does on the dang field. chances are, he may be 325 after a full offseason here anyway.

 

~AS

[Fingon]

this is why Troup weighs less than a buick at this time:

 

""When I came into college, I was 350 (lbs.) so I couldn't play as many plays my freshman year. I would play two or three plays and then I'd have to come out."

"constantly worked in the weight room and was constantly running on my own to build my conditioning because .. it's hard to go that fourth quarter, especially if you're getting double teams."

 

http://ucfathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-foot.../042310aai.html

 

this is not some little guy we need to "fatten up", ok? when he weighs 315, he may have more muscle mass on him than moby.. i mean cody does at 975, or whatever he's up to by now.

 

let the young man BE.. and see what he actually does on the dang field. chances are, he may be 325 after a full offseason here anyway.

 

~AS

This is why I said it was ridiculous for him to say that Troup would be fattened up to 350. He is very athletic, and is not your traditional "big fat guy" NT. He is an extremely strong player (34 bench presses at the combine, despite his long arms) and was known for holding his ground in college because of his tremendous strength.

[seadog]

Some of those guys were at 325 their senior year in high school. No way Wilfork is 325. More like 400. I think these players weight is taken their senior year in college and they never get weighed again throughout their career. Some of the weights just seem to be very accurate. You can just look at Wilfork and tell there's no way he's 325. He'smore like 6'6 and 400.

[Steely Dan]

You are including lots of 4-3 DTs who play a completely different position. Totally unfair.

 

The 3-4 "1" techniques on that list are gigantic fat people.

 

Every single one of those guys is listed as a NT at NFL.com, except for Pat Williams who's listed as a DT.

[apuszczalowski]

You guys do realise that a weight doesn't mean anything when you don't factor in height and how much is fat and how much is muscle. 350lbs of muscle on a 6'6" athlete is much better then someone who is 350lbs of fat and under 6'

 

Conditioning is a concern with these big guys cause its possible to be healthy at a heavy weight like that if you are conditioned well.

[Justice]

Cody already passed the team's physical. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Green Lightning]

6'3 -6'4 350 is what teams would like, but there are always exceptions. If a player is gonna perform way better at a certain weight than that's where he'll play. It's just an example of what most teams would prefer to have,that's all.

 

 

Not true. Teams would like a NT to plug a two gap, occupy two OL while LB's buzz around and flatten running backs. If a NT can do that at 314# they don't care what he weighs. Troup was 350# put lost the weight to play every down. He can afford to put on some weight, but the guy is all lower half - his legs are as big around as I am. If he can do the job at a lighter weight, that's fine. it's not just about size. Power and jump are more important. Many of the guards and centers he'll face go about 330#.

[Green Lightning]

Some of those guys were at 325 their senior year in high school. No way Wilfork is 325. More like 400. I think these players weight is taken their senior year in college and they never get weighed again throughout their career. Some of the weights just seem to be very accurate. You can just look at Wilfork and tell there's no way he's 325. He'smore like 6'6 and 400.

 

 

Explain Jay Ratlif? He's uber effecdtive at NT at under 310#.

[Cynical]

Explain Jay Ratlif? He's uber effecdtive at NT at under 310#.

 

Oh, Jesus Christ. Can we PLEASE stop with the Ratliff comparisons? This is the 4th reference to him in this thread alone.

 

Troup has yet to take the field, and unless I missed it, he's not even signed.

At this point, Troup isn't even qualified to hold Ratliff's jock strap.

 

At this point, I no longer care how well Troup played in college. He's looking to play in the NFL.

 

As for Ratliff, just like JStranger76 said:

"... there are always exceptions. If a player is gonna perform way better at a certain weight than that's where he'll play."

[DanInUticaTampa]

Oh, Jesus Christ. Can we PLEASE stop with the Ratliff comparisons? This is the 4th reference to him in this thread alone.

 

Troup has yet to take the field, and unless I missed it, he's not even signed.

At this point, Troup isn't even qualified to hold Ratliff's jock strap.

 

At this point, I no longer care how well Troup played in college. He's looking to play in the NFL.

 

As for Ratliff, just like JStranger76 said:

"... there are always exceptions. If a player is gonna perform way better at a certain weight than that's where he'll play."

 

He wasn't comparing troup to Ratliff, derrrrr.

 

He was counterarguing that an NT doesn't have to be 350+.

[JPicc2114]

Lol, hes like the fat kid from "Little Giants"

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Well, it looks like Torrell Troup is in the fold and will be present for all of training camp.

 

Meanwhile, I was listening to local sportstalk radio on KNBR and the host, Damon Bruce announced what the actual fitness test that Terrence Cody failed:

 

One 25 yard sprint down and back (total 50 yards) followed by a 70 second rest.

 

A second 25 yard sprint down and back (total 50 yards) followed by a 70 second rest.

 

A third and final 25 yard sprint down and back (total 50 yards).

 

I bet that 90% of the population including geriatrics and children and the obese, could pass this "fitness" test.

 

Cody's failure to pass this test on the first official day of his professional life…well as I said before the test was known…it's hard to put it into perspective.

 

Well, the actual test parameters certainly make that perspective much more clear.

 

edit: No details on how far Cody made it and/or whether he just gave up, passed out or how it was determined that he failed the test. There was no mention of any time parameters for the test. And yes, I am aware that Cody has since passed the test.

[Mr. ChumChums]

Oh, Jesus Christ. Can we PLEASE stop with the Ratliff comparisons? This is the 4th reference to him in this thread alone.

 

Troup has yet to take the field, and unless I missed it, he's not even signed.

At this point, Troup isn't even qualified to hold Ratliff's jock strap.

 

At this point, I no longer care how well Troup played in college. He's looking to play in the NFL.

 

As for Ratliff, just like JStranger76 said:

"... there are always exceptions. If a player is gonna perform way better at a certain weight than that's where he'll play."

 

Keep in mind that Ratliff plays in a Wade phllips 3-4..., which is a completely different scheme than the standard 2-gap 3-4. A 1-gap 3-4 (Phillips) generally doesn't require a large, fat, and otherwise gigantic NT. Just one that can penetrate, similar to a 3-technique undertackle in a 4-3.

[eball]

Since when did a pro sports team aim to have their player at a particular weight regardless of other factors such as height? That does not make sense.

The Bills would also like for Troup to play at 6'11" -- that will be a focus during training camp.

[eball]

Oh, Jesus Christ. Can we PLEASE stop with the Ratliff comparisons? This is the 4th reference to him in this thread alone.

 

Troup has yet to take the field, and unless I missed it, he's not even signed.

At this point, Troup isn't even qualified to hold Ratliff's jock strap.

 

At this point, I no longer care how well Troup played in college. He's looking to play in the NFL.

 

As for Ratliff, just like JStranger76 said:

"... there are always exceptions. If a player is gonna perform way better at a certain weight than that's where he'll play."

Come on, man, you're so -- well, you know.

[Doc]

Keep in mind that Ratliff plays in a Wade phllips 3-4..., which is a completely different scheme than the standard 2-gap 3-4. A 1-gap 3-4 (Phillips) generally doesn't require a large, fat, and otherwise gigantic NT. Just one that can penetrate, similar to a 3-technique undertackle in a 4-3.

Yep. Here is a good read on it:

 

http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/5/7/481...sity-modern-3-4

The "Phillips"

 

This system is not what people think of when they think of the 3-4, because the original 3-4 was/is strictly a 2-gap system.

 

In fact, look at the Denver "Orange Crush Defense" of the late 70's. It was run by Red Miller, and one of his assistants at the time was Coach Belichick. Belichick ended up in NE as we all know, while Fairbanks returned to college coaching in Colorado. Denver fans would thus be more likely than many fans to think of the 3-4 in terms of 2 gap, but you can still read the mistaken notion in many sports sites and publications.

 

The Phillips is named after "Bum Phillips", father of DAL head coach Wade Phillips, who formerly coached the Broncos as both a head coach and defensive coordinator. Bum learned under Paul "Bear" Bryant at A&M and had coached high school football well enough to break into the college ranks (not a common route). He was a defensive coordinator in SD, then in HOU (that's the Oilers for you young folks). He later was a head coach in HOU and later for NO.

 

Phillips was an innovator who turned the 3-4 upside down. His system is one-gap. The DL penetrates, and is charged with constant harrasment of the QB. The LBs are typically fast, and at least one of them will blitz on any given play.

 

The reason for the near constant 1-LB blitz is to account for the fact that the outnumbered DL is also relatively undersized and only one-gapping. However, the adjustments work out well. The OL never knows who the blitzer will be, or where he will come from. The Phillips is more aggressive that the Bullough. The school of thought for the Phillips 3-4 is the need to pressure against the QB to stop the pass threat, and this is done by varying who the "fourth rusher" (who is really a blitzer) is.

 

Add another blitzer in here and there, and the speedy/aggressive Phillips system is a threat to QBs, and attempts to get turnovers by slashing the time that a QB has to make decisions.

 

This is the system of choice for DAL, but also SD.

 

It is not the ideal system for SD in one sense. Denver (king of the offensive "zone block " system for runs) and oakland (newly switched to the zone block) are built to run over the 1 gap defenses, and they share the division with SD. SD adjusts for this by:

 

* Relying on a high tempo offense featuring LT, Gates, and Chambers to dictate games,

* Backing up the LBs to give them more reactionary distance, and

* Shooting for a better record against the Chiefs (2 games) and the other 10 games out of division.

So from what I gather, Williams will continue to do what he's been doing, which is penetrate an OC-OG gap, while Edwards and Stroud handle the OT-OG gaps (I suppose if Stroud and Edwards can 2-gap, the defense will be that much better for it). The unaccounted-for OC-OG gap is the responsibility of a MLB, and the outside (of the OT's) gaps are the responsibility of the OLB's.

[Steely Dan]

Yep. Here is a good read on it:

 

http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/5/7/481...sity-modern-3-4

 

So from what I gather, Williams will continue to do what he's been doing, which is penetrate an OC-OG gap, while Edwards and Stroud handle the OT-OG gaps (I suppose if Stroud and Edwards can 2-gap, the defense will be that much better for it). The unaccounted-for OC-OG gap is the responsibility of a MLB, and the outside (of the OT's) gaps are the responsibility of the OLB's.

 

That's a great article, thanks.

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

Well, it looks like Torrell Troup is in the fold and will be present for all of training camp.

 

Meanwhile, I was listening to local sportstalk radio on KNBR and the host, Damon Bruce announced what the actual fitness test that Terrence Cody failed:

 

One 25 yard sprint down and back (total 50 yards) followed by a 70 second rest.

 

A second 25 yard sprint down and back (total 50 yards) followed by a 70 second rest.

 

A third and final 25 yard sprint down and back (total 50 yards).

 

I bet that 90% of the population including geriatrics and children and the obese, could pass this "fitness" test.

 

Cody's failure to pass this test on the first official day of his professional life…well as I said before the test was known…it's hard to put it into perspective.

 

Well, the actual test parameters certainly make that perspective much more clear.

 

edit: No details on how far Cody made it and/or whether he just gave up, passed out or how it was determined that he failed the test. There was no mention of any time parameters for the test. And yes, I am aware that Cody has since passed the test.

Seems like a standard shuttle run, I'm guessing the 3 trials were timed, and the time you run the 3rd has to be within a certain number of seconds of the 1st. Testing your bodies ability to recover. The distance seems extremely short however.

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

Keep in mind that Ratliff plays in a Wade phllips 3-4..., which is a completely different scheme than the standard 2-gap 3-4. A 1-gap 3-4 (Phillips) generally doesn't require a large, fat, and otherwise gigantic NT. Just one that can penetrate, similar to a 3-technique undertackle in a 4-3.

Has their been any word as to what type of 3-4 the Bills will be running this season?

[Doc]

Has their been any word as to what type of 3-4 the Bills will be running this season?

With Williams in there, likely a 1-gap 3-4. With Troup, a 2-gap.

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

With Williams in there, likely a 1-gap 3-4. With Troup, a 2-gap.

Seems speculative, I was wondering if there was anything concrete from the coaching staff etc.

[Doc]

Seems speculative, I was wondering if there was anything concrete from the coaching staff etc.

There has been no definitive word from the coaching staff. But Kyle Williams said that what they're doing now is pretty much what he was doing last year, which was lining-up between the OG and C and shooting the gap.