Honest Question about 4-3 vs. 3-4

[Bilgewater]

Whenever I focused on Posluszny this season, he did not impress. When he stunts, he is fine to very good. But he gets caught up in the wash when he flows, and I never saw him shed a block. We were terribly soft in the middle this season. Time after time, he was blocked by a pulling guard or tackle, and taken out of the play. It seemed like our safeties and DB's were making all our tackles on RB's.

 

So if our LB's are getting blocked by O linemen in a 4-3, where we have 4 down linemen on their 5 or 6, isn't it just going to get worse if we switch to a 3-4? We have no DT that can occupy the guard and center every play. Nor do we have any speed burner DE's that will force the offense to keep in the TE or RB for pass protection.

 

It seems to me that the 3-4 will just make Poz, Mitchell, Ellison, Draft and the rest of the Lollipop Guild dead men walking.

 

What am I missing? Or is the thought that we start from scratch with all new bodies?

 

Or am I wrong about Posluszny?

[rackemrack]

the only possible way i could see the bills switching to a 3-4 would be to get a dominating nose tackle. wilfork in FA is the only option i know of, I don't know of any good ones in the draft this year... otherwise a 3-4 won't work with the current personnel

[Arkady Renko]

the only possible way i could see the bills switching to a 3-4 would be to get a dominating nose tackle. wilfork in FA is the only option i know of, I don't know of any good ones in the draft this year... otherwise a 3-4 won't work with the current personnel

 

And yet we have to pick a DC before free agency...

[JPicc2114]

I would throw Terrence Cody at the nose tackle position with Kyle Williams as one of the ends with Schobel/Kelsay... No one would be running on that.

[vincec]

I would throw Terrence Cody at the nose tackle position with Kyle Williams as one of the ends with Schobel/Kelsay... No one would be running on that.

Williams can't play end (at least he couldn't the half dozen times he tried this season) and I think Schobel will retire before trying to learn a new defense, so Kelsay and Denney?. Even assuming that Buffalo can get a NT and find some ends, who are the OLBs? They are the key positions in the 3-4 along with the NT. Maybin and Mitchell? I don't think so.

 

A switch to the 3-4 would mean 2 to 3 years of rebuilding the defensive front 7, almost from scratch. Given how weak Buffalo's offense has been I think you'd be looking at a couple of very lean seasons. IMO, the Bills would be better off keeping the 4-3 and trying to pick up one or two new starters to bolster the front 7.

[billsfan_34]

Whenever I focused on Posluszny this season, he did not impress. When he stunts, he is fine to very good. But he gets caught up in the wash when he flows, and I never saw him shed a block. We were terribly soft in the middle this season. Time after time, he was blocked by a pulling guard or tackle, and taken out of the play. It seemed like our safeties and DB's were making all our tackles on RB's.

 

So if our LB's are getting blocked by O linemen in a 4-3, where we have 4 down linemen on their 5 or 6, isn't it just going to get worse if we switch to a 3-4? We have no DT that can occupy the guard and center every play. Nor do we have any speed burner DE's that will force the offense to keep in the TE or RB for pass protection.

 

It seems to me that the 3-4 will just make Poz, Mitchell, Ellison, Draft and the rest of the Lollipop Guild dead men walking.

 

What am I missing? Or is the thought that we start from scratch with all new bodies?

 

Or am I wrong about Posluszny?

Poz plays with the weakest D line and linebacking corps in the league. Its really hard to gauge him with this group and with that crap tampa 2. I dont know many linebackers that can shed blocks from offensive lineman.

[sharper802]

The 3-4 requires a great NT and big DE's. Stroud is too small to play NT(he is taller than he is wide) but might be able to play DE. Williams and Johnson might be able to play DE. Schobel would have to be traded or retire. I don't think he would want to play OLB like Jason Taylor did. Maybin would have to be switched to OLB. Poz may or may not be able to play ILB but probably is not fast enough to play OLB.

So....

Outside of Maybin moving to OLB to get him on the field more I see no benefit to switching to a 3-4. Maybe in the long run that is the way to go but not next year IMHO. We should know pretty quickly what the plan is when they hire a DC and by who they target in FA.

 

PS If Maybin doesn't put on a least 15 -20lbs he might have to move to OLB regardless of the scheme...

[CarolinaBill]

Well, Maybin was drafted specifically because of his speed off the edge, so if we did switch it seems obvious that he would be in the rush end/olb spot, similiar to merriman, or ware. It can be done but we def need to improve the center of the defense (welcome to buffalo terrance cody) if the 3-4 were to work, either way, Maybin has to get on the field somehow, and the coaches need to find ways to get him involved.

[Dr. Trooth]

MItchell is the only bonafide and guaranteed LB on the roster (assuming he's healthy) that will be a sure fire ILB in a 3-4 at 250 lbs. As you recall last season when he was healthy, his sacks and QB pressures were right up the middle.

[VADC Bills]

Whenever I focused on Posluszny this season, he did not impress. When he stunts, he is fine to very good. But he gets caught up in the wash when he flows, and I never saw him shed a block. We were terribly soft in the middle this season. Time after time, he was blocked by a pulling guard or tackle, and taken out of the play. It seemed like our safeties and DB's were making all our tackles on RB's.

 

So if our LB's are getting blocked by O linemen in a 4-3, where we have 4 down linemen on their 5 or 6, isn't it just going to get worse if we switch to a 3-4? We have no DT that can occupy the guard and center every play. Nor do we have any speed burner DE's that will force the offense to keep in the TE or RB for pass protection.

 

It seems to me that the 3-4 will just make Poz, Mitchell, Ellison, Draft and the rest of the Lollipop Guild dead men walking.

 

What am I missing? Or is the thought that we start from scratch with all new bodies?

 

Or am I wrong about Posluszny?

When you critique Poz some posters here are in denial and constantly make excuses for him. One of the reasons I'm hoping the Bills draft McClain is because the mlb is a huge liability on this team.

Your stronger players can tend to shed blocks especially if you have good hands. When the DL is being blocked on run plays it's up to your LB's to fill the gaps but you have to have the instincts to know where the play is going. Poz isn't very good at this. I can't think of a time when I saw him shed a block or really hit someone. When your middle is tough your defense tends to take on the tough personality and the same when it is soft. In baseball terms, he is like a centerfielder that has problems catching the ball.

The hope is in a 3-4 his zone will decrease and make him more effective. RB's tend to drag him extra yards after the point of impact. I'm not sure how to make him tougher. He so much reminds me of Brian Bosworth.

Mitchell has the best instincts of any LB that we have but he isn't going to make the pro bowl any time soon.

The real issue is talent, we need to look at replacing all of our LB's which may not be possible in one year but we should start moving in that direction.

A switch to a 3-4 will be difficult with the personel that we have. We need an every down NT that can push the middle and DE's that that can provide the pressure. We just don't have the personel to do that.

[VADC Bills]

Poz plays with the weakest D line and linebacking corps in the league. Its really hard to gauge him with this group and with that crap tampa 2. I dont know many linebackers that can shed blocks from offensive lineman.

Let's not kidd ourselves he is one the primary reasons why we have the weakest LB corps. Don't miss the forest because of the trees .

[sharper802]

Let's not kidd ourselves he is one the primary reasons why we have the weakest LB corps. Don't miss the forest because of the trees .

But, but he's white.... ergo he must be smart and have high character. Wait what was that? Marv Levy trading up and wasting another draft pick on a high character guy....

[metzelaars_lives]

Poz plays with the weakest D line and linebacking corps in the league. Its really hard to gauge him with this group and with that crap tampa 2. I dont know many linebackers that can shed blocks from offensive lineman.

 

LB's? Very possibly. D-Line? Not even close. If their D-Line isn't above average, it's at least average. Kyle Williams is a damn good football player. Stroud is Stroud and Kelsay didn't even have a bad season.

[Thurman#1]

Whenever I focused on Posluszny this season, he did not impress. When he stunts, he is fine to very good. But he gets caught up in the wash when he flows, and I never saw him shed a block. We were terribly soft in the middle this season. Time after time, he was blocked by a pulling guard or tackle, and taken out of the play. It seemed like our safeties and DB's were making all our tackles on RB's.

 

So if our LB's are getting blocked by O linemen in a 4-3, where we have 4 down linemen on their 5 or 6, isn't it just going to get worse if we switch to a 3-4? We have no DT that can occupy the guard and center every play. Nor do we have any speed burner DE's that will force the offense to keep in the TE or RB for pass protection.

 

It seems to me that the 3-4 will just make Poz, Mitchell, Ellison, Draft and the rest of the Lollipop Guild dead men walking.

 

What am I missing? Or is the thought that we start from scratch with all new bodies?

 

Or am I wrong about Posluszny?

 

 

 

Realistically, LBs DON'T shed blocks from OLs. I mean, think about it, those guys have a hundred pounds on LBs. The only way they shed those blocks is to run around them or to stay far enough away that the OL's arms are fully outstretched to make contract, which takes away all their power.

 

I don't know if you'll remember this, but a few years ago, the word was out that Ray Lewis was at the end of his career. He simply wasn't effective. His tackles dropped a lot, and he just wasn't an impact player. Then the Ravens brought in Ngata. Miraculously, at just that moment, Lewis started to play better.

 

Poz is playing in a scheme that is having problems because the DL is about average. There's nobody up front to absorb OLs, and that makes the LBs look bad.

 

And as for y our question about the 3 - 4, you're right, we would absolutely need to bring in a serious big man as an OT. The Pats* will almost certainly re-sign Wilfork, so that means one of the only alternatives that would work right away the first year would be Terrence Cody (the Bills aren't likely to get either of the top two DTs in the draft, as they'll be gone in the top 6 or so), and Cody is absolutely unable to rush the passer, he is likely to be a two-down player. He is also a horrible reach at #9 and won't be there for us in the second round. So we would have to trade back or trade up from the second to get him.

 

In any case, the 3 - 4 absolutely requires a huge man at NT, and that guy is NOT on the roster now.

[bills88]

To switch to the 3-4, this is what the Bills have to do. The d line would be Schobel at one end with Stroud at the other. They have to get a big dude in the middle via free agency or the draft to play nose tackle. Williams would be a back up. Maybin would be moved to outside linebacker with Mitchell. Poz would stay inside, and the Bill would need another inside linebacker (preferably with speed, actually this is a necessary) The secondary could stay the same. The biggest variable is the nose tackle, obviously. But you plug in a good nose tackle and a fast ILB who hits, and this is not a bad defense.

[Stussy109]

hypothtically, in the 3-4, everybody in the front 7 is bigger than they are now. You would have 270-280 DE's, a mammoth NT, ILB's would be 250-260, OLB 240's-250's. Because u have more guys off the LOS, they have more time to react therefore don't need to be as fast, so u can supplemnt that with strength and size.

[joey greco]

It's a cyclical league. Everybody is going to a 3-4 on defense right now. The smart play is to stay 4-3. Grab the guys who fall because they don't fit into the 3-4. You end up with superior athletes as compared to their draft spot, who fell because they didn't fit into the current fad. Switching to the 3-4 now is comparable to preparing for the last war instead of the next one. The Billls aren't making the playoffs next year, they should get into the best position for the future.

 

This has happened before (early 90's). The last time everybody adopted the 3-4 they all fought to grab those very few people on earth that make an effective 3-4 NT. Lots of good players were ignored because they didn't fit the scheme. They were grabbed by those teams that didn't make the switch )particularly the Cowboys and Bucs). They had great defenses thanks to that, and dominated the next 10 years. I'd like to see the Bills ahead of the curve instead of chasing it, for a change.

[OldTimer1960]

It's a cyclical league. Everybody is going to a 3-4 on defense right now. The smart play is to stay 4-3. Grab the guys who fall because they don't fit into the 3-4. You end up with superior athletes as compared to their draft spot, who fell because they didn't fit into the current fad. Switching to the 3-4 now is comparable to preparing for the last war instead of the next one. The Billls aren't making the playoffs next year, they should get into the best position for the future.

 

This has happened before (early 90's). The last time everybody adopted the 3-4 they all fought to grab those very few people on earth that make an effective 3-4 NT. Lots of good players were ignored because they didn't fit the scheme. They were grabbed by those teams that didn't make the switch )particularly the Cowboys and Bucs). They had great defenses thanks to that, and dominated the next 10 years. I'd like to see the Bills ahead of the curve instead of chasing it, for a change.

 

Right On!

 

This might be the best post that I've seen in a while here. Very insightful. Add to this that the Bills current defenders

don't fit a 3-4 well at all and you'd have to turn over most of your DL and LBs just to make the conversion. Very hard

to do when many other teams are now competing for the very same players that you'd need.

 

The 4-3 will work fine if you have good players. The Bills clearly need at least one, maybe 2 more starting LBs and

need more pass rush from their DEs. I suspect that the Bills will end up having to trade Schobel to a contender othewise

he will likely retire, so that will make a pass rusher even more important.

 

No doubt, the Bills have big needs on offense including LT and QB, but I would rather see them get an outstanding

DE, LB or DT than to reach for whatever is left at LT or QB at #9. Bolster the D (4-3) and fix the OL and then fill

in the skill positions next year.

[PaattMaann]

Well, I think Stroud could handle the nose duties, hes a mammoth and yes he is used to penetrating offensive lines rather than plug space, I think it would be fine for him to switch his style with no ill effects

 

and 3-4 defenses dont have "burners" at DE that force offenses to keep extra blockers in, ends in the 3-4 are usually just big bodies that push around the o-line and let edge rushers ie. linebackers, safeties and corners, to rush the passer...see richard seymour in NE in the past

[OldTimer1960]

Well, I think Stroud could handle the nose duties, hes a mammoth and yes he is used to penetrating offensive lines rather than plug space, I think it would be fine for him to switch his style with no ill effects

 

and 3-4 defenses dont have "burners" at DE that force offenses to keep extra blockers in, ends in the 3-4 are usually just big bodies that push around the o-line and let edge rushers ie. linebackers, safeties and corners, to rush the passer...see richard seymour in NE in the past

 

Agreed, but the Bills don't have any edge rushers (at least at LB), either. Further, all of their LBs except Mitchell are

very very undersized to play a 3-4.