DOM vs MARTY

[reddogblitz]

We don't do hockey here. Football.

 

http://forums.sabrespace.com/forum/1-the-aud-club/

[Taro T]

My Chief argument is that the 2005-2006, 2006-2007, and 2007-2008 Devils were not good defensive teams (Average in 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 while bad in 2007-2008). They had a lot of young guys learning the game (Andy Greene and Johnny Odyua as well as a older inexperienced guy in Mike Mottau) and before the 2007-2008 season Marty lost more talent in front of him when Rafalski left.

 

YET Lou knew that Marty could carry these guys while they learned (Believe me Mottau and Odyua weren't very good until 2008-2009 and Green wasn't very good until this season in fact they were horrible at times) and he did he carried them while winning two Vezna trophies.

 

Yeah the Devils helped Brodeur but watch those first few years after the lockout (Especially 2007-2008 when Rafalski wasn't there and the offense without Gomez and other players struggling was pretty pedestrian) Brodeur helped carry the Devils a lot post lockout. Brodeur is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be, and the excellence of execution.

 

Brodeur is better then Roy unquestionably (I mean Hasek you have a case for I just think what he has done recently negates that case). Think about this in 2006-2007 (Post lockout no Stevens, Niedermayer, and in an unquestionably more offensive era) he posted a 2.18 GAA and in 2007-2008 (No Rafalski this time around) he posted a 2.17 GAA both those GAA's would have been 2nd best in Roy's career (Pre-lock out and on some dam good Colorado and Canadians in the trap era).

 

A quick question about Hasek did he play with big pads? Post lockout they cut down on how big the size of pads could be. Marty's pads now and pre-lockout were smaller then even the new regulations.

Fine, Marty is your favorite player of all-time. That's cool, but that does not make him the best goalie of his era, much less the best of all time.

 

I notice you don't include '05-'06 in your stats, the one year the Devils didn't figure out how to slow people down on their way into and through their zone (at least through the 1st 1/2 of the season) and the year that Marty's GAA shot up by over 1/2 goal per game? Dom's was still below 2.1. By '06-'07, the Devils had already begun restoring obstruction to the game. It's not terribly surprising that Brodeur's numbers started coming back down that season.

 

While Dom is a flake of the highest measure, he also was the best goalie of his era and arguably of all time.

 

Hasek was the top goalie in Czechoslovakia for the 5 years prior to having an opportunity to come west. Had Muckler not insisted on playing an injured Fuhr instead of a healthy Hasek, the Sabres might have been champs in '93. Hasek led the league in save percentage for ~7 consecutive years. He also had a sub 2.0 GAA in '94 (the 1st in 20 years) prior to the Devils making the trap ubiquitous. As for playing with lousy D in front of him, does the fact that Zhitnik Smehlik was the best pair he had in front of him in Buffalo carry any weight? (McKee and Warrener were getting 20 mins/game, Zhitnik and Smehlik more like 25 minutes per.) There were MANY years in Brodeur's career that Zhitnik would have been no better than #4, and Smehlik would have had a tough time breaking into the top 6. And to complain about having Oduya in the lineup while neglecting the Sabres giving guys like Mike Wilson a LOT of ice time doesn't garner as much sympathy as you apparently expected. Hasek had so little in front of him in those years, he won the Hart and Lester B. trophies twice.

 

You haven't addressed the fact that playing with the exact same team in front of him that the world beater known as Scott Clemmenson had better stats than Marty.

 

Hasek left and the Sabres went from making it to the 3rd round of the playoffs fairly consistently to missing the playoffs the next 3 seasons. Brodeur missed 1/2 a year and the team didn't miss a beat.

 

I'm not going to turn this into a Roy v Brodeur, but you need to remember that in the pre-trap days, Brodeur's #'s were up in the 2.3's and 2.4's as well and that Roy led the league in GAA twice in that era. Also, when Team Canada came calling, they ran with St. Patrick rather than Brodeur.

[C.Biscuit97]

Since the league has had mor than 6 teams, Dominick Hasek is the most dominant and amazing golaie for a 5 year span ever. For those 5 years, he was one of the greatest hockey players EVER. Brodeur plays on a team that tries to bore you to death (thus they have no fans) and bangs his sister in law (no comment).

[Chef Jim]

No not at all. Whats the deal? Sounds juicy. Was Lindy called for "spearing" the Dom's wife or something? Sorry for lame humor. Couldn't resist.

 

I have no clue, I'm just bustin' your nutz.

[billsfan89]

Fine, Marty is your favorite player of all-time. That's cool, but that does not make him the best goalie of his era, much less the best of all time.

 

I notice you don't include '05-'06 in your stats, the one year the Devils didn't figure out how to slow people down on their way into and through their zone (at least through the 1st 1/2 of the season) and the year that Marty's GAA shot up by over 1/2 goal per game? Dom's was still below 2.1. By '06-'07, the Devils had already begun restoring obstruction to the game. It's not terribly surprising that Brodeur's numbers started coming back down that season.

 

While Dom is a flake of the highest measure, he also was the best goalie of his era and arguably of all time.

 

Hasek was the top goalie in Czechoslovakia for the 5 years prior to having an opportunity to come west. Had Muckler not insisted on playing an injured Fuhr instead of a healthy Hasek, the Sabres might have been champs in '93. Hasek led the league in save percentage for ~7 consecutive years. He also had a sub 2.0 GAA in '94 (the 1st in 20 years) prior to the Devils making the trap ubiquitous. As for playing with lousy D in front of him, does the fact that Zhitnik Smehlik was the best pair he had in front of him in Buffalo carry any weight? (McKee and Warrener were getting 20 mins/game, Zhitnik and Smehlik more like 25 minutes per.) There were MANY years in Brodeur's career that Zhitnik would have been no better than #4, and Smehlik would have had a tough time breaking into the top 6. And to complain about having Oduya in the lineup while neglecting the Sabres giving guys like Mike Wilson a LOT of ice time doesn't garner as much sympathy as you apparently expected. Hasek had so little in front of him in those years, he won the Hart and Lester B. trophies twice.

 

You haven't addressed the fact that playing with the exact same team in front of him that the world beater known as Scott Clemmenson had better stats than Marty.

 

Hasek left and the Sabres went from making it to the 3rd round of the playoffs fairly consistently to missing the playoffs the next 3 seasons. Brodeur missed 1/2 a year and the team didn't miss a beat.

 

I'm not going to turn this into a Roy v Brodeur, but you need to remember that in the pre-trap days, Brodeur's #'s were up in the 2.3's and 2.4's as well and that Roy led the league in GAA twice in that era. Also, when Team Canada came calling, they ran with St. Patrick rather than Brodeur.

 

The Devils don't play the trap anymore and they haven't restored obstruction to the game at all. 75% of obstructions get called (The other 25% are let them play type of calls or just missed calls) Do you really think the devils have found a new way to clutch and grab? The league who doesn't want the trap era part 2 doesn't let anyone let alone the Devils who pioneered the trap era (Complain all you want the Devils weren't the only ones using the trap Colorado among others did it the same way).

 

Oh yeah when team Canada came calling for St.Patrick it was because Marc Crawford the coach of Colorado (the team where Roy played at the time) was the coach of team Canada. It had nothing to do with Brodeur's ability. In fact they didn't even medal with Roy in net yet in 2002 with Marty team Canada won the gold.

 

I did address the fact that Scott Clemenson was just as good as Marty (Stats wise) last season, it was because guys like Odyua and Mottau along with Bryce Salavador all had coming out parties as defensemen. Mottau in the prior two years was God awful (Think Mike Wilson bad), Odyua while showing flashes at time played his first two seasons he was very sloppy defensively most of the time. Also a guy like Andy Greene struggled mightily at times for his first 3 years in the league.

 

As far as the 2005-2006 season goes Marty's numbers weren't good because he got off to a dreadful start. The team minus Elias and guys like Parise and Zajack were rookies couldn't score at all (Even during Brian Gionta's 48 goal season his only real good season) and the Defensemen were playing bad and having a hard time adjusting to the post trap game (It didn't help that guys like Shawn Brown, Vladimir Malakof, and Dan McGillis all didn't know how to play post-lockout those guys drew so many penalties).

 

However Marty kept the team afloat during the bad start and finished with a great end to his season. When the team needed him most he was stellar down the stretch (In fact if you look at his numbers post December 2005 that year he had a good season stats wise) When they needed him to play well night in and night out that year so they could clinch a playoff spot and win a division he did. Also goalie stats were really inflated that year only 4 goalies with 50 or more games that seasons had a GAA below 2.3 and only one guy with 60 or more games had a GAA below 2.3. In fact Brodeur's numbers at a 2.57 GAA were still top ten in the league (He led the league in wins as well to be fair its because he played so many games).

 

The Devils (2008-2009 and beyond) are a playoff team without Marty however without Marty those first 3 years post-lockout they just were a very pedestrian team who would have been a 10-8 seed in 2006-2007 and would have missed by a mile in 2007-2008. And they needed him to stay afloat during the 2005-2006 season and without his strong finish in that year they wouldn't have won their division either. Brodeur has proven with those seasons he is great no matter what the circumstances.

[Taro T]

The Devils don't play the trap anymore and they haven't restored obstruction to the game at all. 75% of obstructions get called (The other 25% are let them play type of calls or just missed calls) Do you really think the devils have found a new way to clutch and grab? The league who doesn't want the trap era part 2 doesn't let anyone let alone the Devils who pioneered the trap era (Complain all you want the Devils weren't the only ones using the trap Colorado among others did it the same way).

 

Oh yeah when team Canada came calling for St.Patrick it was because Marc Crawford the coach of Colorado (the team where Roy played at the time) was the coach of team Canada. It had nothing to do with Brodeur's ability. In fact they didn't even medal with Roy in net yet in 2002 with Marty team Canada won the gold.

 

I did address the fact that Scott Clemenson was just as good as Marty (Stats wise) last season, it was because guys like Odyua and Mottau along with Bryce Salavador all had coming out parties as defensemen. Mottau in the prior two years was God awful (Think Mike Wilson bad), Odyua while showing flashes at time played his first two seasons he was very sloppy defensively most of the time. Also a guy like Andy Greene struggled mightily at times for his first 3 years in the league.

 

As far as the 2005-2006 season goes Marty's numbers weren't good because he got off to a dreadful start. The team minus Elias and guys like Parise and Zajack were rookies couldn't score at all (Even during Brian Gionta's 48 goal season his only real good season) and the Defensemen were playing bad and having a hard time adjusting to the post trap game (It didn't help that guys like Shawn Brown, Vladimir Malakof, and Dan McGillis all didn't know how to play post-lockout those guys drew so many penalties).

 

However Marty kept the team afloat during the bad start and finished with a great end to his season. When the team needed him most he was stellar down the stretch (In fact if you look at his numbers post December 2005 that year he had a good season stats wise) When they needed him to play well night in and night out that year so they could clinch a playoff spot and win a division he did. Also goalie stats were really inflated that year only 4 goalies with 50 or more games that seasons had a GAA below 2.3 and only one guy with 60 or more games had a GAA below 2.3. In fact Brodeur's numbers at a 2.57 GAA were still top ten in the league (He led the league in wins as well to be fair its because he played so many games).

 

The Devils (2008-2009 and beyond) are a playoff team without Marty however without Marty those first 3 years post-lockout they just were a very pedestrian team who would have been a 10-8 seed in 2006-2007 and would have missed by a mile in 2007-2008. And they needed him to stay afloat during the 2005-2006 season and without his strong finish in that year they wouldn't have won their division either. Brodeur has proven with those seasons he is great no matter what the circumstances.

Where did I say "clutch and grab"? I said "obstruction". As in players getting in the way of others (you know, obstructing their progress). At the beginning of '05 there was darn near zero tolerance for anything slowing the game down (which was of itself silly), toward the 2nd half of the season enforcement was culled back slightly and the game is FAR tighter today than it was in '05. And your Devils have been at the forefront of that.

 

You have not explained how Clemmensen could have better numbers than Marty had in a manner that is consistant with Marty being the best there is. If Marty is truly the greatest thing since sliced bread, and not a product of the Devils' system; shouldn't he have BETTER stats than the journeyman? With his D having a coming out party, shouldn't Marty have had a sub-2.0, or at minimum a sub- 2.39? Marty is a very good goalie, no doubt about that, but he is very much a product of the system played by Lamoriello's teams. The same Lou Lamoriello who is probably one of the 5 most powerful men in all of hockey.

[Red]

Hasek.

 

Now, can we please talk about football on the Bills site again?

[Wilson from Gamehendge]

Dominik Hasek revolutionized the game with his style...he also has WAY MORE credentials than just the Vezina's. It is laughable to even think somebody compares Brodeur to the Dominator. (He "shut door!")

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominik_Ha%C5%A1ek

 

 

He may be the BEST Goalie of ALL-TIME.

 

AWARDS:

Hart Memorial Trophy 1997, 1998

Lester B. Pearson Award 1997, 1998

Vezina Trophy 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001

William M. Jennings Trophy 1994, 2001, 2008

NHL First All-Star Team 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001

NHL All-Rookie Team 1991–92

All-Star Game 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 (did not play due to injury), 2002

 

RECORDS:

In nine seasons with the Buffalo Sabres, Hašek acquired over 25 franchise records, including most all-time games played, wins, shutouts and lowest goals against average.[21] He also holds the Sabres' record for most shutouts in a single season with 13 in 1997–98, and lowest goals against average in a single season with a total of 1.87 in 1998–99. During the Detroit Red Wings' championship run in 2002, Hašek set franchise records for most games played, minutes played, wins and shutouts in a playoff year. He holds several notable NHL records:

 

Regular Season -

 

Before retirement

3rd place — Most shutouts of all active players

4th place — Most wins of all active players

 

All-time

1st place — Highest career save percent (.922)

1st place — Most games played by a European born goaltender (694)

6th place — Most shutouts (81)

8th place — Lowest goals against average (2.20)

10th place — Most wins (389)

 

First European goalie to lead the NHL in GAA (1993–94)

First goalie since 1974 to have a GAA below 2.00 (1993–94)

Most shutouts in one month (six in 97–98)

 

Playoffs -

 

Before retirement

3rd place — Most shutouts of all active players (15)

4th place — Most wins of all active players (61)

 

All-time

2nd place — Most shutouts in one season (6)

3rd place — Most shutouts (15)

10th place — Most wins (61)

 

 

MILESTONES:

Hašek earned his 300th National Hockey League win on October 15, 2005, in a 5–1 home victory with the Ottawa Senators over the Boston Bruins. He stopped 34 of 35 shots and was holding a shutout until Bruins forward Pat Leahy jammed a loose puck under him three minutes into the third period. He became the twenty-second goaltender to reach the milestone. He is the oldest goaltender in NHL history to post a 30-win season, and in 1997, he became the first goaltender to win the Lester B. Pearson Award for most outstanding player in the league. He is also the only goaltender to win the Hart Trophy twice for most valuable player, and was only one Vezina Trophy away from tying Jacques Plante's record of seven. Hašek's personal best shutout streak is 181 minutes, 17 seconds

 

 

WHY IS THIS STILL A TOPIC OF DISCUSSION HERE?

 

Did this post not say enough??? PEOPLE LOOK AT HASEK'S STATS AND AWARDS!!!!! (on weaker teams than Brodeur)

[Taro T]

WHY IS THIS STILL A TOPIC OF DISCUSSION HERE?

 

Did this post not say enough??? PEOPLE LOOK AT HASEK'S STATS AND AWARDS!!!!! (on weaker teams than Brodeur)

Actually you missed a few of his awards:

 

Czech Goalie of the Year: 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990;

Czech Player of the Year: 1987, 1989, 1990;

Czech 1st Team All Star: 1988, 1989, 1990.

 

Can't say for certain though that the teams were weaker than Brodeur's. Don't have a lot of info on Czech teams prior to Iron Curtain falling. Just know they were typically just a smidge weaker than the Soviets.

 

Imagine how much better his career NHL stats would have been had the IC fallen a few years earlier.

[Wilson from Gamehendge]

Actually you missed a few of his awards:

 

Czech Goalie of the Year: 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990;

Czech Player of the Year: 1987, 1989, 1990;

Czech 1st Team All Star: 1988, 1989, 1990.

 

Can't say for certain though that the teams were weaker than Brodeur's. Don't have a lot of info on Czech teams prior to Iron Curtain falling. Just know they were typically just a smidge weaker than the Soviets.

 

Imagine how much better his career NHL stats would have been had the IC fallen a few years earlier.

 

Yeah, I saw these too, when doing some research. But, I just stuck with NHL stuff because "MARTY" was mainly an NHL player. Not only would Hasek have had better stats and awards if the IC fell earlier, but also if he came into the NHL at an earlier age. He didn't play in the NHL until 8 years after he was drafted by the Blackhawks.

[Taro T]

Yeah, I saw these too, when doing some research. But, I just stuck with NHL stuff because "MARTY" was mainly an NHL player. Not only would Hasek have had better stats and awards if the IC fell earlier, but also if he came into the NHL at an earlier age. He didn't play in the NHL until 8 years after he was drafted by the Blackhawks.

Annnnnnnd, when he did finally come over, his unorthodox style scared the crap out of his coaches/management.

 

People love to give Muckler props for being the genius that brought Dom to Buffalo for a song (essentially Ruutu and the draft pick that turned into Eric Daze). Some genius, he traded away Puppa, Andreyslug, and the pick that turned into Kenny Jonnson to get Fuhr after he already had Hasek on the squad.

 

Had Fuhr not been injured in early '93-'94, Dom would never have gotten a chance to be Dom.

 

Had he been playing in the I at an earlier age and the Hawks had the opportunity to realize that what appeared to be luck the 1st 100 times he made a particular save actually not been luck, his stats would have been absolutely off the chart. (As if they weren't anyhow.)

[billsfan89]

Where did I say "clutch and grab"? I said "obstruction". As in players getting in the way of others (you know, obstructing their progress). At the beginning of '05 there was darn near zero tolerance for anything slowing the game down (which was of itself silly), toward the 2nd half of the season enforcement was culled back slightly and the game is FAR tighter today than it was in '05. And your Devils have been at the forefront of that.

 

You have not explained how Clemmensen could have better numbers than Marty had in a manner that is consistant with Marty being the best there is. If Marty is truly the greatest thing since sliced bread, and not a product of the Devils' system; shouldn't he have BETTER stats than the journeyman? With his D having a coming out party, shouldn't Marty have had a sub-2.0, or at minimum a sub- 2.39? Marty is a very good goalie, no doubt about that, but he is very much a product of the system played by Lamoriello's teams. The same Lou Lamoriello who is probably one of the 5 most powerful men in all of hockey.

 

The reason Marty didn't have good numbers last year was he was coming off an injury (The first serious injury of his careerer Marty's ability to stay healthy is another reason why he is the best) for the first time, also the team just played bad down the stretch (when Marty came back he was getting 0-2 goals a game once he broke the record the team seemed to just go into a slump).

 

The injury and Marty's lack of experience with dealing with injuries was why he had a bad end to his season (The start to his year was really good). The D's coming out party and the emergence of Zack Parise as a 40 goal a year guy (Along with returns to form by Elias and Langenbruner) was another reason for Clemenson's success. If Brodeur would have played that whole year he would have had sick numbers.

 

You still haven't told me why Marty had Vezna success with mediocre defensive teams there is no way Clemenson is able to take the 2006-2007 and espically the 2007-2008 to the division title or the playoffs like Marty was. The strength of Marty's game is his constant effort gives you a chance to win every night. Even if Marty has a bad night and gives up 3-4 goals he still makes big saves down the stretch to keep the game within reach and gives the Devils a chance to win almost every night. His puck movement also helps the Devils (Even with the trapezoid he still moves the puck well)

 

The Devils lead the way in obstruction? I don't doubt that the league is calling less penalties (A lot more then pre-lockout but a sizeable amount less then the 2005-2006 season) but I think that is just more of a product of players knowing what is and isn't a penalty in the "New NHL". Sure the refs are letting more go but they are still calling a majority of obstruction calls. I don't get how the Devils are the leaders in this? Every team tries to play D and sees where the line is why were the Devils the only team to try and push the line?

 

I mean Andy Green was an undrafted free agent while Mike Mottau and Odyua where both late round picks. These guys who thrown right in front of Marty with no experience in the league at all. Marty's supporting cast in the new offensive era of the NHL wasn't that good. Yet he was still just as good if not better in his mid 30's.

[Taro T]

The reason Marty didn't have good numbers last year was he was coming off an injury (The first serious injury of his careerer Marty's ability to stay healthy is another reason why he is the best) for the first time, also the team just played bad down the stretch (when Marty came back he was getting 0-2 goals a game once he broke the record the team seemed to just go into a slump).

 

The injury and Marty's lack of experience with dealing with injuries was why he had a bad end to his season (The start to his year was really good). The D's coming out party and the emergence of Zack Parise as a 40 goal a year guy (Along with returns to form by Elias and Langenbruner) was another reason for Clemenson's success. If Brodeur would have played that whole year he would have had sick numbers.

 

You still haven't told me why Marty had Vezna success with mediocre defensive teams there is no way Clemenson is able to take the 2006-2007 and espically the 2007-2008 to the division title or the playoffs like Marty was. The strength of Marty's game is his constant effort gives you a chance to win every night. Even if Marty has a bad night and gives up 3-4 goals he still makes big saves down the stretch to keep the game within reach and gives the Devils a chance to win almost every night. His puck movement also helps the Devils (Even with the trapezoid he still moves the puck well)

 

The Devils lead the way in obstruction? I don't doubt that the league is calling less penalties (A lot more then pre-lockout but a sizeable amount less then the 2005-2006 season) but I think that is just more of a product of players knowing what is and isn't a penalty in the "New NHL". Sure the refs are letting more go but they are still calling a majority of obstruction calls. I don't get how the Devils are the leaders in this? Every team tries to play D and sees where the line is why were the Devils the only team to try and push the line?

 

I mean Andy Green was an undrafted free agent while Mike Mottau and Odyua where both late round picks. These guys who thrown right in front of Marty with no experience in the league at all. Marty's supporting cast in the new offensive era of the NHL wasn't that good. Yet he was still just as good if not better in his mid 30's.

Coming off an injury is why Marty didn't play well last year? Really? You do realize that he pitched shutouts in 2 of his 1st 3 games back from that injury that he was figuring out how to deal with, right? Want to try another retort as to why Clemmensen had better numbers than St. Marty?

 

You claim Clemmensen couldn't have won with the team the 2 years prior to Marty's injury, but we don't really know that do we? What we do know is that in periods where the Devils can't/don't play a very tight defensive scheme Marty's numbers aren't stellar. We also know that in the only extended period he wasn't the Devils' primary goalie that the (generally considered inadequate) backup performed as well as better than Marty.

 

There is no point in even continuing this conversation if you don't acknowledge that the Devils (or Minnesota) play the most defensive oriented game in the league post-lockout. As to WHY they do that, you would have to ask new HoFer Mr. Lamoriello; I have my theories, but he'd be able to give you the real scoop.

 

OK, Andy Green was an undrafted free agent. You were aware than Brian Rafalski also was an undrafted free agent, right? And his departure was one of the ones you were using as an excuse earlier in this thread.

[billsfan89]

Coming off an injury is why Marty didn't play well last year? Really? You do realize that he pitched shutouts in 2 of his 1st 3 games back from that injury that he was figuring out how to deal with, right? Want to try another retort as to why Clemmensen had better numbers than St. Marty?

 

You claim Clemmensen couldn't have won with the team the 2 years prior to Marty's injury, but we don't really know that do we? What we do know is that in periods where the Devils can't/don't play a very tight defensive scheme Marty's numbers aren't stellar. We also know that in the only extended period he wasn't the Devils' primary goalie that the (generally considered inadequate) backup performed as well as better than Marty.

 

There is no point in even continuing this conversation if you don't acknowledge that the Devils (or Minnesota) play the most defensive oriented game in the league post-lockout. As to WHY they do that, you would have to ask new HoFer Mr. Lamoriello; I have my theories, but he'd be able to give you the real scoop.

 

OK, Andy Green was an undrafted free agent. You were aware than Brian Rafalski also was an undrafted free agent, right? And his departure was one of the ones you were using as an excuse earlier in this thread.

 

You realize that coming off an injury isn't just your first few games right? At age 36/37 the guy faced an injury that kept him off for more then half a season a situation he had never conditioned for at all. Sure he came back and played well for the first few games but he lost steam as the more he had to play.

 

Yeah Rafalski was an undrafted free agent but after 7 plus years in the league the guy was pretty dam good while Andy Greene after about 0 years of experience (And Rafalski played in a high grade Sweedish league while Green came right from college) is not a good product to put in front of a goalie. Also putting out inexperienced late round picks like Mike Mottau and Johnny Odyua didn't help the Devils D either.

 

The Devils do play a defensive style and that does help Marty I fully acknowledge that. HOWEVER why do you fail to acknowledge that Marty carried two devils teams (2006-2007 and the 2007-2008 teams) while young defensemen were learning to play the game and the team was losing talent due to the cap (Gomez offensively and Rafalski defensively).

 

Your argument is that Hasek carried bad Saber teams deep into the playoffs and Marty just coasted on the backs of good Devils teams. My argument is that Marty post-lock out (No trap, no HOF talent in front of him, and in an era of offense) has shown he can elevate teams as well.

 

Marty's strength's are consistency, durability, and playing great late in games. Marty comes in night in and night out and plays good he rarely has a stinker. Hasek as often admitted by Sabers fans has a lot of stinkers in between his great outings. Also Marty being durable is another reason why he is better then the Dominator. Marty stays healthy and starts a lot of games, even in his mid 30's he starts 70 plus games a season.

 

Also Marty has the ability to salvage off nights. When Hasek had a bad night no way the Sabers were winning (Even later on with Detroit a much better team). With Marty even if he gives up 3-4 goals in the first two periods more often then not he comes up with big saves and solid play that keeps the Devils in it and gives them a chance to win night in and night out. You build titles off guys who do that.

 

Hasek is the second greatest ever. But his lack of durability and what Marty has shown Post-lockout puts him behind Marty. Marty and Hasek could both steal you games and even by my own admission Hasek could steal you more games then Marty but over the course of 82 games the ability of Marty Brodeur to keep you in games on a bad night gives you more wins. Also the ability to start 70 games year in and year out is something special as well.

[Taro T]

You realize that coming off an injury isn't just your first few games right? At age 36/37 the guy faced an injury that kept him off for more then half a season a situation he had never conditioned for at all. Sure he came back and played well for the first few games but he lost steam as the more he had to play.

 

Yeah Rafalski was an undrafted free agent but after 7 plus years in the league the guy was pretty dam good while Andy Greene after about 0 years of experience (And Rafalski played in a high grade Sweedish league while Green came right from college) is not a good product to put in front of a goalie. Also putting out inexperienced late round picks like Mike Mottau and Johnny Odyua didn't help the Devils D either.

 

The Devils do play a defensive style and that does help Marty I fully acknowledge that. HOWEVER why do you fail to acknowledge that Marty carried two devils teams (2006-2007 and the 2007-2008 teams) while young defensemen were learning to play the game and the team was losing talent due to the cap (Gomez offensively and Rafalski defensively).

 

Your argument is that Hasek carried bad Saber teams deep into the playoffs and Marty just coasted on the backs of good Devils teams. My argument is that Marty post-lock out (No trap, no HOF talent in front of him, and in an era of offense) has shown he can elevate teams as well.

 

Marty's strength's are consistency, durability, and playing great late in games. Marty comes in night in and night out and plays good he rarely has a stinker. Hasek as often admitted by Sabers fans has a lot of stinkers in between his great outings. Also Marty being durable is another reason why he is better then the Dominator. Marty stays healthy and starts a lot of games, even in his mid 30's he starts 70 plus games a season.

 

Also Marty has the ability to salvage off nights. When Hasek had a bad night no way the Sabers were winning (Even later on with Detroit a much better team). With Marty even if he gives up 3-4 goals in the first two periods more often then not he comes up with big saves and solid play that keeps the Devils in it and gives them a chance to win night in and night out. You build titles off guys who do that.

 

Hasek is the second greatest ever. But his lack of durability and what Marty has shown Post-lockout puts him behind Marty. Marty and Hasek could both steal you games and even by my own admission Hasek could steal you more games then Marty but over the course of 82 games the ability of Marty Brodeur to keep you in games on a bad night gives you more wins. Also the ability to start 70 games year in and year out is something special as well.

And at age 42, Dom pulled a 2.09. Of course, he's never had to come back from an injury.

 

And St. Marty's losing steam is how he got a shutout in the 3rd last game of the regular season, right?

 

As for "salvaging bad nights." 1st off, the Sabres have won games when Dom had an "off-night" but they were pretty rare; it was far more common for Dom to win a game that the Sabres played poorly in. Please give some examples of games where your beloved Devils won after Marty gave up 4 in the 1st 2; I kind of doubt that they have a 0.500 or better record in those games, though you claim otherwise. Some examples would help to clear that up. And, just so we are clear, if the Devils could win without Marty playing well on a regular basis, you are not helping your case in your claim that he's the bestest goalie ever. So you may not want to dig too hard to find those games that they won after he gave up 4 through 40.

 

You have to be joking about Brodeur being able to keep a team in the game on a bad night better than Hasek could. The Sabres play during most of Dom's tenure were by definition "bad nights." Dom not only kept them in those SEASONS, he had good runs in the playoffs with those teams. The only times the Devils didn't / weren't able to play a defensive first/at all costs game Marty's numbers were VERY ordinary.

 

I am still awaiting your explanation of how the journeyman Clemmensen could have better numbers than Marty did. Or are you stating that coming back from an injury (in which he had TWO shutouts in his 1st 3 games back from and another at the end of the year) are how a journeyman who this year has a GAA WELL above 4.0 could have had a better GAA AND S% playing in front of the exact same players? That Devil defensive style clearly has nothing to do with the team not giving up a lot of goals.

 

Hasek could steal more games, but Brodeur was better. I agree with the 1st part, but don't see how that supports your 2nd contention. And did you really state that you build titles off guys that give up 4 goals in the 1st 2 but don't get scored on after that? How exactly does that work? Would you like to restate that one?

 

I did not say that Marty coasted on the Devils, but they and their style have CLEARLY effected his results. There is no way he comes close to the stats he has if he doesn't play on a team that significantly limits scoring chances. The proof of that is, in the rare seasons that the Devils weren't defensively focused Marty's stats ballooned. And in the rare seasons where another goalie got a chance to get into a rhythm, his stats were comparable to Marty's.

 

As to Marty playing great late in games, you didn't happen to catch any of the Carolina series last year by any chance?

 

Hasek might be the 2nd best ever. From what I hear, Sawchuk was pretty incredible. But Dom was definitely better than Brodeur.

[billsfan_34]

I always thought Marty Biron was better than Dominic Hasek.

Ur nuts!!!! Get a grip on reality....hasek carried the sabres on his back for years. I remember many 40 save nights.

[Astrobot]

. . . and I thought this was going to be Dom Capers vs. Marty Schottenheimer. Seriously.

So did I. My answer is Marty.

[FreakPop]

Does Marty put up similar stats and awards that Dom put up if he were the Sabres goalie? NO WAY!

 

There is no denying that Marty is a great goalie, it's just that Dom was better! End of argument.

[billsfan89]

And at age 42, Dom pulled a 2.09. Of course, he's never had to come back from an injury.

 

And St. Marty's losing steam is how he got a shutout in the 3rd last game of the regular season, right?

 

As for "salvaging bad nights." 1st off, the Sabres have won games when Dom had an "off-night" but they were pretty rare; it was far more common for Dom to win a game that the Sabres played poorly in. Please give some examples of games where your beloved Devils won after Marty gave up 4 in the 1st 2; I kind of doubt that they have a 0.500 or better record in those games, though you claim otherwise. Some examples would help to clear that up. And, just so we are clear, if the Devils could win without Marty playing well on a regular basis, you are not helping your case in your claim that he's the bestest goalie ever. So you may not want to dig too hard to find those games that they won after he gave up 4 through 40.

 

You have to be joking about Brodeur being able to keep a team in the game on a bad night better than Hasek could. The Sabres play during most of Dom's tenure were by definition "bad nights." Dom not only kept them in those SEASONS, he had good runs in the playoffs with those teams. The only times the Devils didn't / weren't able to play a defensive first/at all costs game Marty's numbers were VERY ordinary.

 

I am still awaiting your explanation of how the journeyman Clemmensen could have better numbers than Marty did. Or are you stating that coming back from an injury (in which he had TWO shutouts in his 1st 3 games back from and another at the end of the year) are how a journeyman who this year has a GAA WELL above 4.0 could have had a better GAA AND S% playing in front of the exact same players? That Devil defensive style clearly has nothing to do with the team not giving up a lot of goals.

 

Hasek could steal more games, but Brodeur was better. I agree with the 1st part, but don't see how that supports your 2nd contention. And did you really state that you build titles off guys that give up 4 goals in the 1st 2 but don't get scored on after that? How exactly does that work? Would you like to restate that one?

 

I did not say that Marty coasted on the Devils, but they and their style have CLEARLY effected his results. There is no way he comes close to the stats he has if he doesn't play on a team that significantly limits scoring chances. The proof of that is, in the rare seasons that the Devils weren't defensively focused Marty's stats ballooned. And in the rare seasons where another goalie got a chance to get into a rhythm, his stats were comparable to Marty's.

 

As to Marty playing great late in games, you didn't happen to catch any of the Carolina series last year by any chance?

 

Hasek might be the 2nd best ever. From what I hear, Sawchuk was pretty incredible. But Dom was definitely better than Brodeur.

 

I have explained to you 3 times how Clemenson had better stats then Marty. The defense was playing a lot better then in the past two seasons. Guys like Greene, Odyua, and Mottau were playing a lot better then in the past 3 seasons. The whole team including the offense played a lot better then in the past 3 seasons. Zack Parise emerged as a 40 goal a year guy while vets like Elias and Langenbruner bounced back after sub par seasons.

 

The Devils in 2008-2009 were a much better team then in 2007-2008. In the 2007-2008 season guys like Mottau and Odyua were still struggling (Andy Greene was also still very raw) and the offense was struggling mightily (As mentioned Elias and Langenbruner were having off years and Zajack and Parise weren't elite guys yet). I mean the Sabers this year are a lot better this season then last right?

 

Marty's ability to stay healthy and play 70 plus games a season is another reason for his being the greatest ever. The guy stays on the ice you can't deny value in that. I mean hasek was a ticking time bomb for injury and each year the Sabers season rested on it, while Marty year in and year out was a work horse.

 

Also when I say Marty's ability to salvage off nights was another reason for his value its merely stating that the guy salvages many points in the standings by finishing strong almost every game. So I am going to take the guy who you know is going to stay healthy year in and year out and a guy who is going to be much more constant and more of a battler in his bad games over a guy whose peak greatness are slightly better but struggles to stay healthy and has an inconsistent streak.

 

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. We both watched/watch these guys play night in and night out and I have a lot of respect for Hasek but what Marty has shown post lockout to me has shown that he isn't the product of a system and didn't need HOF defensemen and a defensive era to play Vezna caliber like hockey in fact all of that in his mid to late 30's.

[jax bill backer]

I have explained to you 3 times how Clemenson had better stats then Marty. The defense was playing a lot better then in the past two seasons. Guys like Greene, Odyua, and Mottau were playing a lot better then in the past 3 seasons. The whole team including the offense played a lot better then in the past 3 seasons. Zack Parise emerged as a 40 goal a year guy while vets like Elias and Langenbruner bounced back after sub par seasons.

 

The Devils in 2008-2009 were a much better team then in 2007-2008. In the 2007-2008 season guys like Mottau and Odyua were still struggling (Andy Greene was also still very raw) and the offense was struggling mightily (As mentioned Elias and Langenbruner were having off years and Zajack and Parise weren't elite guys yet). I mean the Sabers this year are a lot better this season then last right?

 

Marty's ability to stay healthy and play 70 plus games a season is another reason for his being the greatest ever. The guy stays on the ice you can't deny value in that. I mean hasek was a ticking time bomb for injury and each year the Sabers season rested on it, while Marty year in and year out was a work horse.

 

Also when I say Marty's ability to salvage off nights was another reason for his value its merely stating that the guy salvages many points in the standings by finishing strong almost every game. So I am going to take the guy who you know is going to stay healthy year in and year out and a guy who is going to be much more constant and more of a battler in his bad games over a guy whose peak greatness are slightly better but struggles to stay healthy and has an inconsistent streak.

 

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. We both watched/watch these guys play night in and night out and I have a lot of respect for Hasek but what Marty has shown post lockout to me has shown that he isn't the product of a system and didn't need HOF defensemen and a defensive era to play Vezna caliber like hockey in fact all of that in his mid to late 30's.

umm please tell me what HOF defenseman we had.. You guys have had far better defenseman than we ever had.

[Taro T]

I have explained to you 3 times how Clemenson had better stats then Marty. The defense was playing a lot better then in the past two seasons. Guys like Greene, Odyua, and Mottau were playing a lot better then in the past 3 seasons. The whole team including the offense played a lot better then in the past 3 seasons. Zack Parise emerged as a 40 goal a year guy while vets like Elias and Langenbruner bounced back after sub par seasons.

 

The Devils in 2008-2009 were a much better team then in 2007-2008. In the 2007-2008 season guys like Mottau and Odyua were still struggling (Andy Greene was also still very raw) and the offense was struggling mightily (As mentioned Elias and Langenbruner were having off years and Zajack and Parise weren't elite guys yet). I mean the Sabers this year are a lot better this season then last right?

 

Marty's ability to stay healthy and play 70 plus games a season is another reason for his being the greatest ever. The guy stays on the ice you can't deny value in that. I mean hasek was a ticking time bomb for injury and each year the Sabers season rested on it, while Marty year in and year out was a work horse.

 

Also when I say Marty's ability to salvage off nights was another reason for his value its merely stating that the guy salvages many points in the standings by finishing strong almost every game. So I am going to take the guy who you know is going to stay healthy year in and year out and a guy who is going to be much more constant and more of a battler in his bad games over a guy whose peak greatness are slightly better but struggles to stay healthy and has an inconsistent streak.

 

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. We both watched/watch these guys play night in and night out and I have a lot of respect for Hasek but what Marty has shown post lockout to me has shown that he isn't the product of a system and didn't need HOF defensemen and a defensive era to play Vezna caliber like hockey in fact all of that in his mid to late 30's.

In '08-'09 playing with the EXACT SAME DEFENSE in front of them, Scott had a 2.39 with a 0.917 and Marty had a 2.41 with a 0.916. Whether the defense was crud or cream in '07 or 3 seasons ago doesn't make a hill of difference. Marty is the product of the Devils system, sorry to burst your bubble. I would expect the greatest player the world has ever seen should be able to outplay a career AHLer even when coming off an arm injury. Maybe not.

 

As you suggest, we will have to agree to disagree. I can't believe this thread has been on the main board this long anyhow.

[jax bill backer]

ya my threads tend to last a long time.

[billsfan89]

In '08-'09 playing with the EXACT SAME DEFENSE in front of them, Scott had a 2.39 with a 0.917 and Marty had a 2.41 with a 0.916. Whether the defense was crud or cream in '07 or 3 seasons ago doesn't make a hill of difference. Marty is the product of the Devils system, sorry to burst your bubble. I would expect the greatest player the world has ever seen should be able to outplay a career AHLer even when coming off an arm injury. Maybe not.

 

As you suggest, we will have to agree to disagree. I can't believe this thread has been on the main board this long anyhow.

 

While it was the exact same players it wasn't the same caliber defense. In 2007-2008 guys like Mottau, Greene, and Odyua had only been in the league for a year and change they were still very raw and undeveloped and the Devils had a coach (Brent Sutter) who was trying to implement a new style of play to the team. Also in 2007-2008 one of the top 2 defensemen Colin White was struggling with injuries. So while the names were the same the disparity in terms of production was drastic.

 

By 2008-2009 those same guys had another full season of experience in the league and were much better. Had Marty played that whole year he would have had 45 plus wins a sub 2.2 GAA and another Vezna trophy under his belt. Scott Clemenson got bailed out a lot by the Devils offense and the defense.

 

So while I see your point of Hasek being a better goalie (As I have stated I disagree) BUT I think that Clemenson's performance last season just doesn't prove that the Devils propped up Mary the prior 3 seasons when they were started undrafted free agents and late round picks in front of him.