blzrul Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Hey libs -- just think about it. Our guys have swept Fallujah for over a week now and the worst you can find to criticize them is a soldier finishing off a guy who was probably as good as gone anyway. You are forgetting your freaking talking points!!! You don't care about armed combatants -- it's only when they drop their weapons and enter military prisons that you care about them. Keep your eyes on the big picture, libs. Think of all the innocent civilians that must have been killed during this battle. Now run off to your media sources, get back on-topic, and then come back and report to us the truly disgraceful numbers (from a liberal perspective). 120621[/snapback] Relax! According to Bush and Rummy, the "insurgency" is really just a "handful" of people. You make is sound like this small group is really giving the best equipped and trained military in history a hard time. How many times have we declared victory in Fallelujah? And how many soldiers will have to stay there to hold it while we retake some other city? Our system of justice, based on PRINCIPLES (LOOK IT UP) is what makes us different. Things like Abu Graib belie our principles and betray America and what it stands for. Don't scream next time a roadside bomb blows up a bunch of our guys, or a carload of relief workers. All's fair in war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Interesting isn't it? The people who are now defending this action are some of the same ones who condemned John Kerry for shooting a fleeing attacker in the back? It's not all black and white, is it, much though some of you might like it that way. Ahhhhh I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning....or any time. It's always thick around here. 120285[/snapback] Interesting comment, Deb. I never gave a rat's ass about the Kerry shooting and I still do not. As far as this one is concerned, let the Marines investigate, not judgemental weaklings that sit behind a keyboard and imply how easy everything is in an insane situation. It sucks to be second guessed by those unqualified. Trust me. In my NON-qualified opinion, combat has changed. In Iraq, it seems to be more like police work in a way. This happened in a mosque, no? It reminds me of taking a gun from another human being in a dark Brooklyn basement. Critique me as you will, but if you never tried it, you know oh so little about the difficulty and yes, the fright. From what I have heard (the audio tapes), I thank this brave Marine. I thank all past and present service men and women for allowing my wife and children to exist. To me, anybody who wishes to jump the gun and judge this Marine is merely displaying the fact that he or she can in no way relate to the absolute bravery Marines possess and danger that they face. Once again, my thanks go out to every member of the United States Armed Forces both past and present. I am in awe of your bravery and I salute you, including the Marine involved in this incident. God Bless you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Don't scream next time a roadside bomb blows up a bunch of our guys, or a carload of relief workers. All's fair in war. 120778[/snapback] It depends. The western way of warfare involves rules (such as "Surrender when your position is hopeless" and "Honor your surrender") that are designed to minimize the bloodshed in warfare. Problem is, they're not universal; many cultures (Imperial Japan and their bastardized Bushido code) and groups (Islamic extremists, Nazis when fighting "untermenschen") don't recognize them. And if you'll notice my three examples, they all have one thing in common: extremism shaped by a gross misinterpretation of a moral code (the Japanese and the outdated and misshapen Bushido code, Islamic extremists and their badlymisinterpreted Koranic beliefs, Nazis and their bizarro Teutonic chivalric eugenic neolithic tribal ideology). Not that any of that's terribly important or interesting...except for the historical correlations drawn between the current and previous enemies. Just thought it might be an interesting point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Interesting isn't it? The people who are now defending this action are some of the same ones who condemned John Kerry for shooting a fleeing attacker in the back? It's not all black and white, is it, much though some of you might like it that way. Ahhhhh I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning....or any time. It's always thick around here. 120285[/snapback] Debbie shoots and scores... Just kind of underlines my point, too. In war, that kind of thing is common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 It depends. The western way of warfare involves rules (such as "Surrender when your position is hopeless" and "Honor your surrender") that are designed to minimize the bloodshed in warfare. Problem is, they're not universal; many cultures (Imperial Japan and their bastardized Bushido code) and groups (Islamic extremists, Nazis when fighting "untermenschen") don't recognize them. And if you'll notice my three examples, they all have one thing in common: extremism shaped by a gross misinterpretation of a moral code (the Japanese and the outdated and misshapen Bushido code, Islamic extremists and their badlymisinterpreted Koranic beliefs, Nazis and their bizarro Teutonic chivalric eugenic neolithic tribal ideology). Not that any of that's terribly important or interesting...except for the historical correlations drawn between the current and previous enemies. Just thought it might be an interesting point... 120821[/snapback] OK Tom. You are right. That was a tad boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 It depends. The western way of warfare involves rules (such as "Surrender when your position is hopeless" and "Honor your surrender") that are designed to minimize the bloodshed in warfare. Problem is, they're not universal; many cultures (Imperial Japan and their bastardized Bushido code) and groups (Islamic extremists, Nazis when fighting "untermenschen") don't recognize them. And if you'll notice my three examples, they all have one thing in common: extremism shaped by a gross misinterpretation of a moral code (the Japanese and the outdated and misshapen Bushido code, Islamic extremists and their badlymisinterpreted Koranic beliefs, Nazis and their bizarro Teutonic chivalric eugenic neolithic tribal ideology). Not that any of that's terribly important or interesting...except for the historical correlations drawn between the current and previous enemies. Just thought it might be an interesting point... 120821[/snapback] I find it interesting... You are absolutely right. Are you saying we can't win if we don't change our rules? If we can't, then we have to accept the new harsher rules. Yet, for me to accept it, it has to be laid out there openly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 You ever been in combat? Hell you ever trained for building clearing? I have, you don't have time to !@#$ around. You kill everything in sight and move on. Pretty damn easy to backseat drive from the comfort of your liberal !@#$ing chair isn't? Especially when you have never done it, and have no clue. Do yourself a favor and STFU. 120258[/snapback] Hey I did boardings parties on unknown ships in the Gulf during GW I.....we were scared shitless and crew members would come out of little nooks...but we never shoot dead anybody. That was not a Lethal Weapon movie in Iraq, where the villan appears dead and then shoots Mel Gibson. It was an act of cruelity..especially after the Marine's comment "now he is dead"...I was sick watching the video....this is worst than another black eye on our mission in Iraq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 It is an outrage! I can't believe a soldier actually wasted a perfectly good bullet on that POS. All you gotta do to a knife is clean off the blood. 120260[/snapback] Now its a joke to all our conservative bretheran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Now we're shooting unarmed, injured enemy combatants? I can't WAIT to hear Bush's lawyers turn this one into a perfectly acceptable act according to their 'interpretation' of the articles of the Geneva Convention. I saw the video ... both versions. Sickening. Apparently even the right-wing, hawk whacko's who make up most of the regulars in PPP (and provide at least one 'moderator' as well) aren't too thrilled about it either. Or, at least, they seem silent on the matter. But I must comment. Yes, you all know I hate this war already. But THIS takes it to a new low. The silence from the hawks in here is deafening ... that's why I'm posting this. When I post ... on ANYTHING, at ANY TIME ... I know I can count on an Alaska Dimwit or a DiCkless Tom response in seconds. Bring it, boys ... 120236[/snapback] Hey, btw, since you have such a deep feeling for terrorists, I hear they’re taking all applications from short fat government employees from Albany. I think it pays 25K for every marine killed. Sounds like its right up your alley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Hey I did boardings parties on unknown ships in the Gulf during GW I.....we were scared shitless and crew members would come out of little nooks...but we never shoot dead anybody. That was not a Lethal Weapon movie in Iraq, where the villan appears dead and then shoots Mel Gibson. It was an act of cruelity..especially after the Marine's comment "now he is dead"...I was sick watching the video....this is worst than another black eye on our mission in Iraq 120869[/snapback] Anybody on your boat ever get shot? Ever take an armed prisoner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Anybody on your boat ever get shot? Ever take an armed prisoner? 120873[/snapback] Nobody on my crew ever got shoot....we did detain numerous armed individuals....but we were under strict orders on what we could do and not do...the use of deadly force was pounded into our brains in training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 That's not altogether true. Petrino was here to discuss it. Actually, that's not altogether true, either. He showed up long enough to blather about this topic and then go hide and not come back to argue whatever point he felt necessary to make with this topic. 120652[/snapback] For the record: Petrino sent this message at lunchtime & couldn't get back because he had to work the rest of the day. When I went downstairs to the 3rd floor his boss was at his desk, so he wasn't about to say to his boss "Sorry-I have to reply to the gang at Two Bills Drive" His cat bit through his phone wire that attaches the computer to the internet & he won't have home internet until tommorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 For the record: Petrino sent this message at lunchtime & couldn't get back because he had to work the rest of the day. When I went downstairs to the 3rd floor his boss was at his desk, so he wasn't about to say to his boss "Sorry-I have to reply to the gang at Two Bills Drive" His cat bit through his phone wire that attaches the computer to the internet & he won't have home internet until tommorrow. 120890[/snapback] What is this? Third grade? The cat bit through the phone wire? Did he let you know this via carrier pidgeon or smoke signals? So this guy is criticizing someone whose life is on the line every second of the day and likely has been for months, but he can't control a goddamn 13 pound sack of vermin stevestojan running around in his own house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Nobody on my crew ever got shoot....we did detain numerous armed individuals....but we were under strict orders on what we could do and not do...the use of deadly force was pounded into our brains in training 120883[/snapback] Okay...no disrespect, but get back to me with your thoughts on this after they were shooting (and hitting) you in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 For the record: Petrino sent this message at lunchtime & couldn't get back because he had to work the rest of the day. When I went downstairs to the 3rd floor his boss was at his desk, so he wasn't about to say to his boss "Sorry-I have to reply to the gang at Two Bills Drive" His cat bit through his phone wire that attaches the computer to the internet & he won't have home internet until tommorrow. 120890[/snapback] The cat ate his homework? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 The cat ate his homework? 120904[/snapback] Really they were just out frolicking in the Shire and couldn't be bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Nobody on my crew ever got shoot....we did detain numerous armed individuals....but we were under strict orders on what we could do and not do...the use of deadly force was pounded into our brains in training 120883[/snapback] Were rules of enagement different in your situation than they were in Fallujah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Really they were just out frolicking in the Shire and couldn't be bothered. 120906[/snapback] Toms uber-cats are to blame I guess................ woooohaaa, dog-sh*t............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Okay...no disrespect, but get back to me with your thoughts on this after they were shooting (and hitting) you in the face. 120903[/snapback] it all applies...we were expected to follow the orders of our superiors. But i guess my situation on boarding parties does not qualify as war....there were sailors shot in our destroyer squadron though.....the Iraqi was taken into custodynot shot dead...but no, this sailor was not GRAZED in the face...he took a shotgun shell to his abdomen and thigh.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Were rules of enagement different in your situation than they were in Fallujah? 120908[/snapback] No but there were rules of engagement and use of deadly force....yes the threat has changed, combat is different, but you don't think we wanted to just unload our clips on the Iraqi on board these floating buckets of stevestojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 No but there were rules of engagement and use of deadly force....yes the threat has changed, combat is different, but you don't think we wanted to just unload our clips on the Iraqi on board these floating buckets of stevestojan 120945[/snapback] Boarding an Iraqi container ship and opening containers can be very nerve racking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Boarding an Iraqi container ship and opening containers can be very nerve racking. 120949[/snapback] Said the man to himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Said the man to himself. 120953[/snapback] Guess you have never done it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Guess you have never done it 120955[/snapback] Cleared a ship? Nope. Wasn't a squid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Cleared a ship? Nope. Wasn't a squid. 120959[/snapback] well its real stevestojan duty to pull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 well its real stevestojan duty to pull 120960[/snapback] If it's anything like clearing a building with lots of rooms and long narrow hallways, I can empathize. The difference between that and what the Marines are dealing with is they KNOW the guys in the Mosque are the enemy. Not think they might be. Not assume. KNOW. Huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 No but there were rules of engagement and use of deadly force....yes the threat has changed, combat is different, but you don't think we wanted to just unload our clips on the Iraqi on board these floating buckets of stevestojan 120945[/snapback] But isn't that the point of this case? The rules of engagement are different, the combat situation is different, the level of threat and tension are different. If I were to guess, I'd say your situation is closer to NYC Bill's when he had to enter into a dark basement. You knew it was dangerous, but not quite at the level of intense urban combat that's in Fallujah. Just like the ongoing patrols elseqhere in Iraq now, Marines aren't walking around popping caps into everyone who's lying on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Hey, btw, since you have such a deep feeling for terrorists, I hear they’re taking all applications from short fat government employees from Albany. I think it pays 25K for every marine killed. Sounds like its right up your alley. 120871[/snapback] He should try starting with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 He should try starting with me. 120971[/snapback] I got your 6 Not that you'd need it, but I'd be there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I find it interesting... You are absolutely right. Are you saying we can't win if we don't change our rules? If we can't, then we have to accept the new harsher rules. Yet, for me to accept it, it has to be laid out there openly. 120862[/snapback] I wasn't making any point, really...just making an observation that I believe is very informative. The questions the observation raises, and the answers to such, I make no claim to have. I would, however, encourage anyone to look at the historical precedents I mentioned, keeping in mind that those precedents involved organized nation-states and not religions, as a starting point for any answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerjamhead Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Hey I did boardings parties on unknown ships in the Gulf during GW I.....we were scared shitless and crew members would come out of little nooks...but we never shoot dead anybody. That was not a Lethal Weapon movie in Iraq, where the villan appears dead and then shoots Mel Gibson. It was an act of cruelity..especially after the Marine's comment "now he is dead"...I was sick watching the video....this is worst than another black eye on our mission in Iraq 120869[/snapback] I don't know how you come up with some of your stuff, but you cannot compare a boarding party on a suspect vessel out in the gulf to what these Marines and Soldiers are up against in Fallujah. No way in hell can you do that. I'm not saying that it couldn't get sketch at times, but your job wasn't to take over the vessel by force, your job was to inspect the vessel after the vessel's captain had already agreed to get boarded. Please keep from over-inflating your experiences in future posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I don't know how you come up with some of your stuff, but you cannot compare a boarding party on a suspect vessel out in the gulf to what these Marines and Soldiers are up against in Fallujah. No way in hell can you do that. I'm not saying that it couldn't get sketch at times, but your job wasn't to take over the vessel by force, your job was to inspect the vessel after the vessel's captain had already agreed to get boarded. Please keep from over-inflating your experiences in future posts. 120984[/snapback] The moment I stepped on those ship my life was endangered...guess we forget that we were at war in the 1st Gulf War...my job was as important as what Marines are doing in Iraq now...but I'm sure this board will explain to me why I was not in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerjamhead Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 The moment I stepped on those ship my life was endangered...guess we forget that we were at war in the 1st Gulf War...my job was as important as what Marines are doing in Iraq now...but I'm sure this board will explain to me why I was not in danger. 120990[/snapback] No one said that you weren't in danger. Just please get off of your ego trip and keep your experiences in perspective compared to what these kids are going through right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Nobody on my crew ever got shoot....we did detain numerous armed individuals....but we were under strict orders on what we could do and not do...the use of deadly force was pounded into our brains in training 120883[/snapback] That sounds to me like a significantly different situation than the one we're discussing. No disrespect intended, as I recognize that boarding is a dangerous and stressful pasttime...but it is a different environment than actual urban combat, and the actions taken in each situation stem from different contexts. Not that I'm trying to justify the shooting of unarmed prisoners...I'm not. I'm just pointing out that, in the context of the combat that soldier found himself in, it may have been a perfectly natural and understandable act, even if it wasn't in the context of your experience in boarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 No one said that you weren't in danger. Just please get off of your ego trip and keep your experiences in perspective compared to what these kids are going through right now. 120993[/snapback] Well please, share your war experiences with us..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Well please, share your war experiences with us..... 120995[/snapback] Who's being a dick now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Who's being a dick now? 120997[/snapback] I guess I am...but there are so many people on here that know so much about war and combat...never even took a step in a military boot....they are so lame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I guess I am...but there are so many people on here that know so much about war and combat...never even took a step in a military boot....they are so lame 121000[/snapback] Like who? I believe it was one of them that started this thread to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I guess I am...but there are so many people on here that know so much about war and combat...never even took a step in a military boot....they are so lame 121000[/snapback] There are also a large number of us on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 There are also a large number of us on the other side. 121002[/snapback] I know Darin..sorry I should have added that....just gets my goat....i did mean to sound arrogant about what i had to do in a combat zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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