Thoner7 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 To those who say I'd take Florence over Greer anyday, I think all 32 GM's in the league would disagree with you. Greer is a much better CB than Florence is. Just compare the contract the Bills offered Greer (5 years - $20 million) and the one he signed with New Orleans (4 years - $23 million) and you'll see they far outweigh the contract Florence signed with the Bills (2 years - $6.6 million). Money is what talks in the NFL and that right there is proof that Florence is no where near Greer's level. Another point is yes you may be correct perhaps Greer was marginally replacable, but how about the thought of the Bills having resigned Greer and never drafting McKelvin in the first place. I like Greer a whole lot more that McKelvin and the contract for Greer would've been slightly cheaper than McKelvin's. There were a lot of other choices other than McKelvin that I'd much rather have on this team at this point. This has been one of the main reasons the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs the last decade. You need to build your team through retaining your good players and continuing to add solid players in the draft. You simply can not let the majority of your solid free agents walk out the door only to replace them with high picks in the draft. At least we resigned McGee, if he walked I would've had major concerns, not that I don't already. Ryan Clady - hindsight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Interesting. Given that I've championed Clements, it looks like I'll be having crow for dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Interesting. Given that I've championed Clements, it looks like I'll be having crow for dinner. Don't see that often on these pages. Willing to go double or nothing on Trent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yeah, I remember a fair amount of vindictive being spewed at Ralph - and Marv in particular - for not breaking the bank to keep Clements. Looks like the Bills and 'Stupid ol' Ralph' were right on that one, and will probably be right about Jason Peters as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Don't see that often on these pages. Willing to go double or nothing on Trent? With regard to Trent, I've already eaten a flock of 'em. That was a matter of the triumph of hope over experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SACTOBILLSFAN Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 To those who say I'd take Florence over Greer anyday, I think all 32 GM's in the league would disagree with you. Greer is a much better CB than Florence is. Just compare the contract the Bills offered Greer (5 years - $20 million) and the one he signed with New Orleans (4 years - $23 million) and you'll see they far outweigh the contract Florence signed with the Bills (2 years - $6.6 million). Money is what talks in the NFL and that right there is proof that Florence is no where near Greer's level. Another point is yes you may be correct perhaps Greer was marginally replacable, but how about the thought of the Bills having resigned Greer and never drafting McKelvin in the first place. I like Greer a whole lot more that McKelvin and the contract for Greer would've been slightly cheaper than McKelvin's. There were a lot of other choices other than McKelvin that I'd much rather have on this team at this point. This has been one of the main reasons the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs the last decade. You need to build your team through retaining your good players and continuing to add solid players in the draft. You simply can not let the majority of your solid free agents walk out the door only to replace them with high picks in the draft. At least we resigned McGee, if he walked I would've had major concerns, not that I don't already. according to the logic in your first paragraph Nate Clements, nickel corner, is the best of the best since he's the highest paid. In fact, at one point he was the greatest defensive player in the league since he was the highest paid. Cornerbacks are a dime a dozen. Just imagine what these current guys would be doing if the Bills had a pass rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yeah, I remember a fair amount of vindictive being spewed at Ralph - and Marv in particular - for not breaking the bank to keep Clements. Looks like the Bills and 'Stupid ol' Ralph' were right on that one, and will probably be right about Jason Peters as well. Most of the criticism I remember about Marv's handling of the situation were about his decision not to use the franchise tag a second time and see if we could get something for him in a trade. Given the results over the last few years, though, I have to ask if the Bills would really be that much worse off if they'd blown all that money on Clements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Should have kept Williams. Winning teams also don't jettison a player like Fletcher and replace him with a rookie. Like Winfield a lot, but believe that was the year we signed Spikes, so can't really argue with that trade as Spikes is probably the best player we've had here since the glory days. Letting Williams walk was probably one of the dumber things the Modrak/Guy/Donahoe triumvarate did, and that is saying a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estro Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 according to the logic in your first paragraph Nate Clements, nickel corner, is the best of the best since he's the highest paid. In fact, at one point he was the greatest defensive player in the league since he was the highest paid. Cornerbacks are a dime a dozen. Just imagine what these current guys would be doing if the Bills had a pass rush. Option 1: Leodis McKelvin Option 2: Jabari Greer and our 2008 1st Round pick on someone not named McKelvin. Which one do you take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 according to the logic in your first paragraph Nate Clements, nickel corner, is the best of the best since he's the highest paid. In fact, at one point he was the greatest defensive player in the league since he was the highest paid. Cornerbacks are a dime a dozen. Just imagine what these current guys would be doing if the Bills had a pass rush. I was going to post what you said. The size of the contract proves nothing. As for keeping Greer, he'd done nothing to warrant giving him an extension prior to the 2008 season. The Bills, with both him and Clements, ranked 4th last in 2007. And pass defense hasn't been the problem with the Bills. They actually rank higher than the Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 The reason we let Fletcher go was because of his porous run D. He was always getting blown from his gap. I disagree with this observation and if you want stats that indicate (stats really PROVE very little but they can be good indicators) if you look back at the massive number of tackles which Fletcher logged for this team the vast majority of them were actually solo tackles. If he was getting run over and needed help there would be a higher proportion of assisted tackles and of he was just getting run through there would not be so many tackles to his credit at all. My observation was that the more valid complaint about Ftech's tackles was that he initiated contact to far back in the D backfield which to me was more of a problem with how the DC used him as he was called upon to be on our primary pass defenders (a role which saw him lead all LBs in the NFL in INTs his last season here) and use his speed and ball hawk ability to cover WRs over the deep middle in the Tampa 2 style D we employed. In general the run D when he was hear was actually pretty well known for not giving up a ton of 100 yard games to some very good RB opponents and the long runs we see this year when an RB breaks through our DL and then blows through the second level to peel off 60-70 yard runs has already happened several times this year and was a rarity if non-existent with Fletch patrolling the MLB slot. My sense was the reason we let Fletch go was because the FO braintrust decided to get rid of all the older Bills and set their own tone. In some cases like TKO/Clements this worked out in terms of what he had left and what we had to replace him in other cases like with Fletch we are still looking for a more reliable MLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigc14120 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Exactly right. I always though the guy was hugely overrated. Yep, Clemens was a B player, and got A plus player money. Bills did right taking a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yeah, I remember a fair amount of vindictive being spewed at Ralph - and Marv in particular - for not breaking the bank to keep Clements. Looks like the Bills and 'Stupid ol' Ralph' were right on that one, and will probably be right about Jason Peters as well. Agreed that the right call was made on Clements. In fact Marv made the right call in guaranteeing Clements he would not franchise him as he bought a year of relative labor peace without Clements throwing the same hissy fit which worked out quite well for Peters when he faced down the FO and they caved in and gave him what he wanted. Mr. Ralph does not deserve any grief whatsoever for the way Clements was handled. He has tons of personal errors he and virtually he alone seemingly made to screw us up and lead the way in making us 0 for a decade in making the playoffs. These screw ups go back to the firing of Polian, a bad misread on how much Jimbo has left when he made the handshake deal with him and a series of goshawful mismanagments in terms of Butler, Wade, TD. GW, Mularkey, Brandon, etc. Mr. Ralph deserves praise for keeping the Bills here when there were clearly more money to be made elsewhere, but the costs of him screwing up all over the place have to be acknowledged by any rational person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I wonder what Bills Singletary would bench if he were our coach? My guess is TO (attitude), Ellison (horrible play), and Scott (because Byrd has been solid, and I think Whitner will be back starting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 If you have seen Fletcher play recently he is making tackles all over the field including behind the line of scrimmage. When they let Winfield go it was because he didn't intercept the ball enough. My recollection was that it was pretty clear that TD was hanging on to money under the cap with the intention of extending Winfield a year before we would have been forced by FA to do this. Media outlets reported that contract re-negotiations were moving forward but several events happened which remade the Bills priorities. 1. The Bills had a gap at safety but planned to fill it by by attracting vets, Chad Cota and Ainsley Battle to compete with Wire for the SS job. However, both Cota and Battle decided to retire after coming to the Bills camp and it became clearer that Wire was not going to do the job. 2. Bill Belicheat completely mismanaged contract talks with Lawyer Milloy and refused to take even a small reduction in his base pay and come crawling back to Pats camp. TD jumped all over the sudden surprising availability of Milloy (with the result being the Bills handed the Pats their heads in the first game of the season with Bledsoe armed with the most recent Pats thinking and plays from Milloy) and Bellicheat got public holy heck from the Pats players). Unfortunately, there was another bidder for Milloy as the Bears had an opening for a starting safety and plenty of cap room. TD made his typical huge takeout bid to win Milloy but did so at the cost of extending Winfield (who not only received a FA offer the next off-season it would have been difficult for the Bills to match, he also reneged on his verbal desl with NYJ and then took a huge upfront money deal with MN no one could match. I think it is hard for anyone to rationally claim the Bills should not have filled the hole they filled with Milloy (are you really gonna argue Coy Wire should have started for us at SS that year) or blame him for paying what he had to pay to get him since there was another bidder in the market. I also think it is just factually inaccurate for anyone to claim the Bills foolishly gave up on Winfield as a failure because he did not make enough INTs. He was a tackling wizard and a shut down cover guy for the Bills whom we relied upon heavily in our D. He was the pivotal player in one game (I think against TB where he simply took the the TE they relied upon heavily out of the game with two tackles behind the line for 5+ yard losses. In a game against KC, the Bill actually put the CB man to man on TE Gonzales and shut him down. Winfield did not produce INTs but he was a stud for us and the Bills gave all signs of trying to sign him if we could have gotten a sweetheart extension done before the market put him out of reach for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I wonder what Bills Singletary would bench if he were our coach? My guess is TO (attitude), Ellison (horrible play), and Scott (because Byrd has been solid, and I think Whitner will be back starting) I do not think TO has been an attitude problem for us at all this year. Nor is this surprising at all as the TO MO in the past is that in his first year at all because he is busy being a good teammate and winning the hearts and minds of fans. He actually has played a positive role on the field as he still attracts dts which make it much easier for Evans to work as he gets one of ones. The problem we have had has not been TOs attitude but the FO and braintrust being so screwed up they had to can the OC in the week before the first game. If Singletary was gonna make a difference it would not be by jumping to the same conclusion as Sully and various legends in their own mind reporters at ESPN that Owens needed to be throttled, it would have been in getting a real OC to manage the O for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcolosi Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 The one player the Bills let walk - and I was ok wiht - was Clements. As far as Fletcher, P.Wlliams, S. Adams, Winfield, Greer, and J.Leonard go, not so much. really we only missed P williams and Leonard of those. we draft too many CBs (and actually decent ones) to miss winfield or greer for the money they got. Adams didn't have much gas in the tank left. Fletcher tackled everyone 10 yards downfield from behind and got blown up way too often in short yardage situations. i love the guy to death but he isn't a big enough MLB, despite his 'tackle stats.' the other guy i really miss is justin bannan actually. the Raven's used him a lot and he's a pretty solid DT. hes certainly more valuable than mccargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I do not think TO has been an attitude problem for us at all this year. Nor is this surprising at all as the TO MO in the past is that in his first year at all because he is busy being a good teammate and winning the hearts and minds of fans. He actually has played a positive role on the field as he still attracts dts which make it much easier for Evans to work as he gets one of ones. The problem we have had has not been TOs attitude but the FO and braintrust being so screwed up they had to can the OC in the week before the first game. If Singletary was gonna make a difference it would not be by jumping to the same conclusion as Sully and various legends in their own mind reporters at ESPN that Owens needed to be throttled, it would have been in getting a real OC to manage the O for him. I was referring to his obvious lack of effort on plays not designed to go his way (ie run plays) and his body language on the bench (when you see him sitting by himself just staring at the ground or into space). Singletary wouldnt accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I was referring to his obvious lack of effort on plays not designed to go his way (ie run plays) and his body language on the bench (when you see him sitting by himself just staring at the ground or into space). Singletary wouldnt accept that. When did Singletary become a great coach? The 49'ers are on their way to a 3-4 record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Clements - good speed, but hands of stone... I remember so many passes that he would get his hands on, but could not haul in. Wanted waay to much money and if there is one thing that the Bills do well it's been drafting DB talent. I was more upset when they let Winfield go to the Vikes. Pound for pound that little dude was the best open-field tackler I ever saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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