dave mcbride

Yup, worked for tanaka but not others. Kinda like microfractute surgery - platelet treatment is about 50-50 or slightly less, IIRC.

I don’t think curveballs are (see my link to the big ny times story on this earlier in the thread), but definitely agree about screwballs and to a lesser extent sliders.

Look, I’m no expert on qb elbow surgery and the necessity of it, but this season is a lost cause and he’s a long term investment. I make him right for the long term because that ligament in all likelihood will tear eventually.

Also, off-topic, but Didi —cr$p. My favorite player on that team.

Yeah, but see my post above about his off-the-charts velo. It was the ONLY reason he was drafted that high.

Yikes - i worry about this given Allen’s unque high velo (best ever in nfl history, most likely) skill set. I’d get the surgery with a planned august return, but perhaps I’m overworrying. That said, as @BADOLBILZ knows, these never heal. Ever. You just hope they don’t tear more.

I think the appropriate nomenclature is "lit."

The thing I go back to is that Allen is that rare guy whose rep is built mostly on having arguably the strongest arm in recent NFL history. Allen with a moderately weakened arm isn't a guy you draft in the first round at all. So he might be different than, say, a Philip Rivers type whose skillset isn't based on a rocket delivery ability. Just thinking out loud here. Hopefully Allen can avoid any surgery, but he's a bit of an outlier in the arm-strength-as-an-asset category. He may have the strongest NFL arm I've ever seen, although I know Elway had a huge arm. Jeff George and Favre too. (So did Brandon Weeden, but let's not mention him!) EDIT: This is just insane -- .http://www.stack.com/a/josh-allen-threw-a-66-14-mph-pass-at-the-senior-bowl-no-qb-at-the-nfl-combine-has-ever-exceeded-60 Also, check this out. https://www.ourlads.com/story/default/Quarterback-Ball-Velocity-at-NFL-Combine-2008-2017/10243/dh/ . Allen hit 62 at the combine. Fastest ever.

LOL!

The D numbers are truly great given the really bad start, but this offensive performance is criminal. Say what you will about talent etc., but when you're the second worst offense in the league GOING BACK TO 1986 (!!), management (front office and coaching) has seriously screwed up. No rebuilding year should ever be that dismal, especially in a year when points are being scored at a record pace.

Props to Bandit, who found this. This is promising: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1058274610002466 Methods The NFL Injury Surveillance System (NFLISS) was reviewed for any UCL injuries of the elbow in quarterbacks from 1994 to 2008, including the type and mechanism of injury, player demographics, method of treatment, and time to return to play. Results A total of 10 cases of UCL injuries in quarterbacks were identified starting in 1994. Nine cases were treated nonoperatively and the mean return to play was 26.4 days. Conclusion UCL injuries of the elbow are uncommon injuries in professional quarterbacks. This group of overhead athletes can be successfully treated nonoperatively, in contrast to baseball players, who more commonly need surgical reconstruction to return to competitive play. The difference between the 2 groups of overhead athletes is most likely secondary to biomechanics and demand.

Good to know. Excellent data, and it's quite promising! Still, we don't know the extent of the tear if there is one.

See my other posts. Who is saying this? The team? The agent? Some PR guy? Does the team have Andrews' diagnosis yet?

Also: Ulnar collateral ligament injury of the elbow is a sprain (tear) of one of the ligaments on the inner side of the elbow. ... Prognosis The UCL usually does not heal sufficiently on its own with non-operative treatment. To return to throwing, surgery is often necessary. http://www.csosortho.com/ulnar-collateral-ligament-sprain.html We just don't know what the prognosis is, and anyone claiming they do is full of it. The team may want him to play and the agent may want him to get the surgery. That's another factor.

No offense, but this hasn't been reported anywhere. We simply don't know yet. We hear that he has a sprain, but a sprain comes in different grades. Some require surgery.

Since I don't trust anyone from a team when they talk about injuries, it's worth posting this. Sprains mean different things depending on the grade. If there is an injury to the UCL it is often classified as a sprain. There are three grades of sprain: grade 1, 2 and 3. A grade 1 sprain means that the ligament is stretched but no tear is felt. A grade 2 sprain indicates the ligament is stretched and a partial tear could be present. A grade 3 sprain indicates there is a complete tear of the ligament. https://www.beaconortho.com/blog/ucl-injuries-elbow/

Yup, and discussed at some length on previous pages in this thread!

As Hapless pointed out earlier, he may well have hurt the UCL in the GB game, and it was just a matter of time before a big throw worsened it. Who really knows, though ... See Hapless's earlier post about the GB game. Regardless, he has a UCL injury of some sort. That appears to be undebatable. It's not a bone bruise or anything like that. Which may be why McDermott was as livid as I've ever seen him. He was apoplectic after that shot. It may well prove to be "not serious" (and that's what I'm hoping for, obviously), but if you think the Bills are going to say that it's serious at this point, well ... As you know, teams seriously under-report and downgrade the seriousness of injuries, and for good reasons. Re: curveballs (and I know I'm getting off-topic a little): https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/sports/baseball/debate-grows-over-how-to-protect-young-pitching-arms.html. It's overuse, not the type of pitch, that's the real culprit.

This will never happen because the Eagles aren't stupid enough to trade a good backup qb, but Smallwood was FO's lowest rated RB last week. Just sayin'. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-reads/2018/week-6-quick-reads

Regardless, it is not debatable that an MLB shortstop makes more high stress throws than a QB. All of those guys starting at the MLB level are guys who can throw 95, and they throw as hard as they can on many plays. My larger point, if you look above, is that a QB isn't an MLB pitcher and I honestly don't think the recovery time should be 15 months as it is for MLB pitchers. They just don't throw that much or nearly that hard.

My point is that middle infielders also throw all of the time too. They take fielding practice most days of the week. I have no idea who throws more over the course of a season, but given that the baseball season is longer (especially for non-playoff teams), I suspect that middle infielders might throw more. But at the end of the day, it's probably a wash.

If Allen has any sort of tear in his UCL, the Bills should shelve him.

baseball players throw the ball literally all the time when they're not playing on the field. And they literally have practice most days before night games. I guess my point is that they both throw it a lot, although MLB shortstops make far more higher stress throws. That's not up for debate. Regardless of this discussion, if there is any sort of tear, the Bills should put him on the shelf and make him get the surgery (and if I'm Allen, I'm demanding that I get it). The last thing they need is a situation like Tannehill or Luck or RG III - guys who played while injured, which ended up making the situation a whole lot worse. He's not going to accomplish anything this year anyway with this garbage offensive roster.

EDIT: http://riveraveblues.com/2018/10/thoughts-following-didi-gregorius-tommy-john-surgery-179974/ "The typical Tommy John surgery rehab timetable is 6-9 months for position players but that does vary by player and position. Catchers need more rehab time than outfielders, for example. Gleyber Torres had his Tommy John surgery in June and was more or less ready to go by January, though he had surgery on his non-throwing elbow, which is a different animal. Gregorius needs surgery on his throwing elbow. Jay Jaffe did some digging and found that middle infielders who had Tommy John surgery on their throwing elbow missed ten months, on average. That puts Gregorius on track to return next August. Tony Womack returned in six months. Rafael Furcal was out 15 months. Mets utility man T.J. Rivera had Tommy John surgery last September and missed the entire 2018 season with setbacks and whatnot. There’s a wide range of possible outcomes here. Point is, no one really know when Gregorius will be back. There is a chance — a pretty good chance, really — he will play next season. Possibly even as early as May or June. That seems to be the best case scenario."

He throws 3-4 times between innings every inning! He also averages 375 assists per year not including preseason etc. NFL QBs average around 450 throws per full season. Not much difference, and they don't throw it as hard as an MLB shortstop.