CincyBillsFan

Fair enough but as i recall when watching Favre he did take a lot of big sacks and had a lot of fumbles. If I get a minute I might look it up.

Your comparison is not only valid it's a valuable way to modulate our reaction to Allen's performance yesterday. The idea that you can't compare today's QB performance to those in the 1990's is flat out wrong. INT's were bad in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's and even in the 1990's. QB's that threw more picks then TD's are struggling no matter the decade. The stats on Favre you posted are particularly relevant IMO. I suspect that after throwing 19 TD's & 24 INT's in his 3rd season there were a lot of Green Bay fans wondering if he was the guy. It would be interesting to see Favre's stats on fumbles & sacks his first couple of seasons. I bet there uglier then Allen's are.

The Steelers fans are being weirdly quiet. A lot of empty seats and ZERO energy in the stadium. It seems more like an exhibition game then a Monday night game.

I haven't read threw this whole thread so pardon me if someone else has already brought this up but there may be a hidden advantage in having Barkley go this week. Now I'm a huge Allen backer and if he can he should play next week. But isn't the TN coach part of Belichicks defensive coaching tree? Yesterday another member of Belichick's coaching tree, Matt Patricia of Detroit, held Mahomes to an 81 passer rating and NO TD throws. Sure they still lost the game but clearly Detroit had an excellent defensive game plan to frustrate Mahomes. And who do you think shared this plan with Patricia? If Allen plays Sunday, Debold & McDermitt better assume that Belichick passed on his defensive scheme for containing Allen to TN. If Barkley plays that plan goes out the window as they have completely different QB styles.

Which would be easy to counter if we had play making RB's. But with Singleterry out we do not. This IMO is the issue not so much that Allen is rattled by the blitz. And when was the last time this team executed a decent screen pass? That's another excellent way to neutralize the blitz. I agree. Especially with no tape on them. Give Barkley a week of prep and we can win this game if 3 things happen: * the D plays very good * the Special Teams play well and don't give up a TD * the offense doesn't turn the ball over a lot and plays efficiently. Nothing wrong with winning a game 13 - 10.

He has improved his completion percentage. And we can't judge the rest until later in the season or better yet until after the season. For crying out loud are you really going to make the final judgement on Allen and the offensive improvements we made right after playing NE? Talk about skewing the numbers!

Fine add a FG to my scenario and we still lose. BTW we should have made the 49 yard FG. The only scenario where we DON'T lose is if we switch the performance of the punters. Switching the performance of the QB's doesn't get us a win becasue you would have to take our TD off the board to mimic Brady's end zone INT.

Yea, with KC's skill players and with Andy Reid at coach you've got to expect half time adjustments that work. And Mahomes is the modern incantation of Dan Marino - a uniquely gifted QB who needed very little time to rise to the top of the NFL. But that doesn't change the FACT that the Pat's were able to shut KC down, at KC, for an ENTIRE half. That was an amazing defensive performance. And then 2 weeks later they shut down the LA Rams, probably the 2nd or 3rd best Offense in the league, for the ENTIRE GAME. I know we all hate the Pats but they have elite pass defenders and are coached by the greatest defensive mind in NFL history. Allen & the offense was always going to suffer yesterday. I went with my heart & not my head so I was disappointed in Allen & Debald yesterday to. But after sleeping on it the Bills need to gather their sh## and beat TN next week. The season is still a LONG way from being lost and Allen is still a long way from being a bust.

Where would you rank the Bill's running backs? Even more pertinent to the discussion where would you rank Gore & Yeldon versus the rest of the NFL? I would put them bottom 5. The Bills did not rebuild their RBs. They brought in an old war horse; they took a gamble on a rookie 3rd round guy and they added a non-descript journeyman RB in Yeldon who they appear afraid to give the ball to (fumbles anyone). I think the gamble on Singleterry will work out and cutting McCoy was needed for salary cap efforts going forward. But it's obvious that McCoy still has gas in the tank and would be helping this team right now if available. Yesterday's game SCREAMED for McCoy & Gore trading off possessions and slamming the Pats with our running game. That would have slowed down the pass rush and opened up the receivers. They did rebuild the O-line taking it from being the 2nd worst O-line in the NFL to one that's probably in the middle of the pack. Still there is much improvement needed here. They did rebuild the receivers taking them from being the WORST receiving unit in the NFL to middle of the pack. But we're still looking for a true #1. They did rebuild the TE's taking them from being one of the worst units in the NFL to POTENTIALLY one of the better position groups. But RIGHT NOW we're relying on 2 rookies and a guy who hasn't played a down yet. All this means is we must have patience with Allen AND Debald. The offense is still a work in progress.

They are? Our FG kicker should be able to make a 49 yard kick on a perfect weather day. As far as the rest goes I remember one other sack that took us out of FG range, NOT two. Also Brady had a lot of 3 & outs that would have hurt the Bills to. IMO any way you look at it if you switch Brady & Allen's PERFORMANCE yesterday, the Pats still win. But if you switch the punters performance the Bills win. I don't see how it can be more objective and honest then that.

One of those sacks still gave us a chance to kick a 49 yard FG. That was a bad miss IMO in perfect weather conditions. I see 50 yard kicks being made all the time in the NFL. Again Special Teams play yesterday had more to do with the loss then Allen's poor play. But yea, you can get the game score to change a bit depending on how you move the plays around but I see NO scenario where if you switch the numbers between Brady & Allen the Pat's still don't win the game. And that's because in a very close defensive game like yesterday giving up a Special Team TD is almost always fatal. Even more fatal then throwing 3 INT's that give your opponent the ball around midfield.

Simple thought exercise: Let's take Brady's game stats & give them to Allen and give Allen's to Brady: * First if you told me before the game that Allen would attempt 36 passes and complete less then half of them for 150 yards, NO TD's (rushing or passing); have multiple 3 & outs; and throw an INT in the Pat's end zone to kill a drive I would have thought we lose the game 27 - 3. * Now, back to the exercise. Give Brady Allen's stats and IMO the Pats still win. NONE of Allen's 3 INT's gave NE the ball in our Red Zone or took away a Bills red zone opportunity. So instead of going 3 & out and punting & giving the Bills the ball at their own 40, Brady, throwing Allen's INT's, would have given the Bills the ball at midfield. Somehow I think the Pat's D could handle it. So lets say the Bill's get a FG or two off the 3 INT's. * And with Allen channeling Brady he would have thrown a red zone INT like Brady did so you could take that Bills TD off the board. * IMO switching the passing numbers means that Bills probably lose the game 16 - 6 or maybe 16 - 9. Now if you switch the punters stats giving the Bill's the Pat's guys numbers and vice versa what do you think the final score of the game is? I'm not saying Allen didn't have a bad day - he did. What I am saying is that Allen DID NOT lose us the game. IMO the blocked punt for a TD cost us the game. Not all INT's are the same. An overly aggressive throw downfield that gives your opponent the ball at midfield is NOT the same as a PICK 6! And a bad decision that results in an INT at midfield is NOT the same as throwing an INT in your opponents red zone.

I agree that Allen is still at the head of this class but by a small margin: * Baker's opening game at home was like Allen's was yesterday minus going up against an elite pass defense and evil genius coach. Baker threw 3 INT's and lost a fumble that game. Also, there isn't a defense in the NFL that Allen wouldn't score on given FOUR shots from the 4 yard line. Baker couldn't in a home game against the Rams. * Rosen showed life yesterday against LA but overall has done nothing yet this year playing for the worst team in football. * Jackson started hot but the Ravens have lost 2 in a row and when it mattered Jackson was pretty bad in both games. Sure he tacked on 2 TD passes and probably 150 yards against KC & Cleveland's BACK UP defenders playing a PREVENT defense to make his stats look better then Allen's but it's fools gold if you think 50 yard TD throws with 50 seconds left in a game you're trailing by 40 - 19 mean anything. As usual people are way over reacting to what happened yesterday.

Your right that Allen missed the easier throw for the 1st down on that play and he needs to learn from that. But I just didn't see the Pats giving Allen the things they were willing to concede to Barkley in the prevent. We're probably all over thinking this. The Pats have one of the top 3 if not the top pass defense in the NFL. EVERY player in their secondary is a stud. On top of that it's likely that Belichick is taking a direct hand in formulating the Pats defensive game plan and making the game day defensive play calls. We can hate Belichick all we want but he is the best defensive mind in the history of the NFL. Against this we have an offense with a very young and inexperienced QB; a mixed bag on the O-line and at the skill positions and a solid but not great offensive coordinator. The Pats simply confused Allen and the O and the result was a bad offensive performance. It's nothing more then that.

I believe it can be fixed because he showed last year that he could hit those throws. Remember the perfect deep throw that was dropped against the Vikings or the deep throw that was lost in the sun against the Pats. Or the deep TD passes against Jacksonville, Detroit & Miami. And he did complete nice long balls against the Jets for the winning TD and against the Giants to Beasley. Yesterday he was slightly under throwing the long balls in contrast to his overthrowing those passes in the first 3 games. This seems like an artillery guy range finding. I suspect that at some point he's going to nail the range and start hitting those throws.

With a week to game plan the Bills can win a couple of games with Barkley but let's not get fooled by what Barkley did yesterday as some sort of indicator of Allen's ability to handle the offense. Barkley is a check down guy which is actually what you want in your back-up. And when going against a prevent defense like NE played on that last drive, guys like Barkley are going to get completions and look "sharp". But notice how that all came to an end when the Bills got to the Pat's 40 yard line. And on drives before that Barkley did not throw the ball well. Twice he missed open receivers with throws into the turf. And he was lucky not to have lost a fumble and thrown a 2nd INT - in just 3 possessions. I'm more interested in how Allen was able to lead the Bills on a TD drive at the start of the 3rd where he was 6 - 6 for 69 yards. That was a great drive and the first offensive TD the Pats had given up since last years AFC championship game. That's the drive we need to look at when assessing Allen's ability to handle the offense. Barkley's quick reads and getting the ball to receivers was the result of throwing against a prevent D on that last drive.

Wow, after having a terrible game against the greatest defensive mind in football some fans want to move on from Allen. Absolutely bizzare IMO. * First, Allen had a bad game. There are a lot of things he needs to correct when playing against an ELITE NFL defense. But why would any knowledgeable football fan be surprised by this? My heart convinced me otherwise but my head kept thinking that Allen was going to have a very bad game against the Pats and he did. * Allen DID NOT lose the game. Had the Bills won it would have been in spite of Allen but did Teddy Bridgewater "win" the game for NO last night? Sometimes in the NFL your QB has a bad game yet you win 12 - 10 like NO did last night. None of Allen's 3 INT's put the Pats in immediate scoring position nor did they negate a promising Bills scoring drive. The blocked punt for a TD was the killer. How many times a year do you see that in the NFL? * IMO Dabold put to much on Allen. In a way this is a good sign as it meant that in practice and after watching film from the first 3 games the Bills felt Allen could handle it. That he didn't is disappointing but hardly surprising given the opponent. If Allen was the bust some are claiming here Dabold & McDermitt WOULD NOT have put the offense on Allens shoulders against the Pats. You would have seen a much more conservative game plan. * I'm not making excuses here but how many NFL teams have a worse set of RB's then the Bills? Sure Gore had a great game yesterday and has had a HOF career but how much of his 100 yards was a result of the Pats simply not caring about the run? And did Yeldon even get a carry? Yes Singleterry has had a promising start to his career but he's missed 2 games & counting. IMO we fielded a bottom 5 RB dual yesterday. Watch an NFL game, ANY NFL game and tell me I'm wrong. * I like Brown & Beasley and they're definitely a step up from last years top WR's. But the Bills still lack a go to stud that can catch those 50/50 balls. And while a lot of people on here are talking about Allen missing "open" receivers, I kept seeing replays showing how NONE of our WR's were getting separation. Sure Allen missed some open WR's but that was mostly on long throws down field. But the fact remains there just weren't many guys getting open underneath. * Knox is a promising rookie TE and needs to see the field more and be a target more. Going forward, BOTH Knox & Singleterry must be inserted as mainstays in the offensive game plan. They are two of our most dangerous skill players who actually have game breaking ability. Yesterday I saw pass plays that had Smith going 20 yards downfield with NO hope of getting open and I saw empty backfield, 4 receiver spread sets with DeMarco & Gore as two of the spread guys on one side. Do you want to guess which side of the field the safeties cheated to when they saw that? * As others have said Allen gets at least 3 full seasons to prove whether he's the guy or not. In addition, the Bills need to continue to upgrade the talent around him on offense. They did a nice job adding players that moved us from being a bottom 3 offense last season to being in the middle of the pack this season. But if you're going to get a true read on whether Allen is the guy or not then you need to surround him with offense talent that is at least in the top 3rd of the league. You don't need to get him KC or LA Rams talent but you need to improve the O-line and add play makers. * If we don't do this then Allen will flame out and the Bills will be on another 20 year odyssey of non-playoff, mediocre football looking for the right QB. That's why we want Allen to succeed. If he doesn't we risk another wasted decade.

But at that point in the game coming just after the Bills had gone 75 yards for the TD you just had the feeling that a dam was about to break open. We had them on their back heels. We'll never know but at the time I remember thinking we may have just lost the ball game.

He looks great with a guy running for 225 yards in his backfield! That kind of threat will focus a defense's mind real fast. Not to take anything away from Gore but NE completely ignored our running game today. They knew that when Yeldon was in we were not going to run it and they figured that if Frank Gore took it to the house from 50 yards out they deserved to lose. NE focused 100% on keeping Allen in the pocket and taking away the deep shot. It's hard to throw against an elite pass defense that isn't afraid of your running game.

I didn't read through this whole thread so apologies if someone else mentioned this but IMO the Bills lost this game on one series in the 2nd half. Let me lay it out: Bills are down 13 - 3 and they come out of the locker room in the 3rd quarter and Allen engineers the best (and only) TD drive against the Pats D in the last 4 games going back to the Super Bowl. This cuts the Pats lead to 13 - 10. The Ralph is rocking and the Bills are fired up! The defense promptly three & outs the Patriots and forces the punt. The Bills have the ball at their own 39 yard line. Two quick plays gain 6 yards and the Bills face a 3rd & 4! Allen masterfully gets the pats to jump offside giving us the 1st down. He also throws a deep ball taking advantage of the free play. Wait, no 1st down because the Bills are called for holding on that play! Okay, so we have a do over. Allen pulls the ball down and runs for 6 yards and a first down at the Pat's 48 yard line! Wait, no 1st down as we get a SECOND freaking holding call. Now it's 3rd & 14 and off course we don't convert. I believe that had we got the 1st down there we take it all the way in for a TD. Big Moe was clearly working in our favor! So in spite of Allen's 3 INT's; in spite of a coaching staff wasting 2 precious 2nd half TO's; in spite of a blocked punt for a TD and in spite of a 22 yard punt that was no better then an INT I believe this series and the unfortunate penalties that happened is why we lost the game. Am I crazy here? I've just seen so much football in my life and that was the point where we could have taken over the game.

And that was the fundamental flaw in Debolds offensive scheme today. Way to many empty backfield sets meant he was putting the ball in our young QB's hands to much. On the positive side it means that Debold thought he could handle it. On the negative Allen couldn't, which given his inexperience and Belichick's defensive prowess was probably inevitable. It simply was putting to much on Allen's shoulders. And let's not forget that our running game is pretty weak. Sure Gore had an amazing game for a 36 year old RB but against what the Pats were running on D how would any of the younger stud RB's have fared? Maybe 150 - 200 yards? The absence of Singleterry was a big deal. You can't ask Gore to lug the rock 25 times and they were afraid to let the 3rd string RB carry the ball. I mean if I'm a NE safety or LB and Yeldon is in there I know for a fact that he's not getting the hand off. That's a HUGE handicap when you're trying to get receivers open on short & intermediate routes.

With a week to prepare the Bills can beat TN with Barkley. Barkley is a good enough QB to make this happen. But this is not the preferred path. And for those that are touting Barkley's "stats" don't forget that NE went into prevent and gave the Bills those short passes. As soon as Barley got to the Pats 40 on that last drive they shut it down with two straight incompletions and then an INT. Guys like Barkley that check down for a living will move the ball and pile up stats against a prevent D. However they seldom seem to get it into the end zone in 6 point games. The best 2 drives today were led by Allen and resulted in 10 points. And in the name of keeping it real Barkley was lucky he didn't have a lost fumble and a 2nd INT today.

I don't think he lit it up. He was efficient and had a monstrous running game that day. And the Bills best offensive day in the Dabold system IMO was against the Dolphins and the outing against the Giants this season was on par with the Barkley led effort against the Jets. And for the record if your scenario plays out and Allen isn't the guy then the Bills will be set back years as Barkley is NOT the answer and we'll have to go through the draft again.

But it's a dead horse worth beating. I think they put to much on Allen's plate today. They needed to keep it simple. Allen is a young QB going up against the evil genius Belichick. Quick hitting passes and running the football. Way to many empty sets. And maybe it's just me but what use is an empty backfield with 4 wide outs if two of the wide outs on one side of the field are Gore & DeMarco? Seriously! That's supposed to put the fear of God in a defense. Gore had an awesome day for a 36 year old RB. But with Singleterry out the Bills have one of the weakest backfields in the NFL. There is NO game breaking capacity there. And I would suggest that Gore's 100 yards came in large part because the Pats didn't care about our running game. If they had, Allen would not have been under that type of pressure and would have had more guys running open today.

Allen had a terrible day today. He's a young QB and it happens to every one of them NOT named Mahomes. His 3 INT's were bad decisions but they did not impact the game to the extent the one blocked punt did for the simple reason that each INT gave NE the ball at about midfield. These picks did not put NE in our red zone nor did they thwart a Bills drive into the red zone. NE is an elite pass defense. In fact today you saw the #1 & #2 pass defenses go at each other. In case you didn't notice Brady had almost as bad a QB performance as Allen had. He hit less then 50% of his passes threw a horrific INT that robbed NE of points. And if Edmunds had intercepted that bad throw late in the 4th Brady would have thrown a game losing pick 6! Bottom line is that if Allen had Brady's stat sheet we would be just as disappointed in his performance. Maybe this tells us more about the two pass defenses on the field then it does the QB's? We all hate the Pats and Belichick but he is the best defensive mind the game has ever seen. His D held LA to 3 points in the Super Bowl. As much as we dreaded it, today's outcome including Allen's performance, was always the most likely one. In the end Allen will be fine and maybe we can get payback near the end of the season.